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  1. 3 likes
    I have translated it - let me know if it is OK to read, or I can share a link to my document for those interested. Who leans that far? Where are the limits? And what are the differences between street bikes? We compare bikes around a skid pad: Supermoto, Naked Bike, Cruiser und Superbike. We have also discused with experts and tried qualifying tyres from WSBK to see how they differ from street legal sport tyres. Why do we lean? Without lean to counter the centrifugal forces, the bikes would simply fall over. Leaning against the forces the correct amount keeps the machine and rider in balance. For a given radius, the faster one rides, the more one must lean. Or for a given speed, the smaller the radius, the more one must lean. How far can we lean? Sport bikes are generally limited by grip, or friction. With good tyres on a good road we typically have a friction quotient of one µ. This means we can theoretically lean 45 degrees. If you lean further, or you try to slow down or accelerate, you will slide. However, we know it is possible to achieve greater angles of lean. How? Because very grippy tyres and a grainy road surface can interact like gears. That’s why in MotoP and WSBK we can now see bike lean angles as high as 62 degrees. With the rider hanging off we can even see combined lean angles beyond that. What is that- different lean values? Corner master Jorge Lorenzo show us the difference between bike lean and the third lean. Lean angle isn’t always lean angle Basically, we talk about three lean angles. The first one is the effective lean angle. This is a theoretical value and is calculated from the speed and the radius of the corner. This counts for every bike and every rider. But this theoretical value for effective lean angle is based upon infinitely narrow tyres. Now to reality. Imagine watching a vertical bike from behind. Pull a vertical line through the bike’s centre line, the tyre and to the ground. This is where the contact point is as well as the CoG. Now place the bike on its kickstand. Now we see that the contact point between tyre and road has moved to the side somewhat because the tyres are not infinitely narrow. The more we lean the bike, the further away we move the contact point away from the bike’s centre line. If we draw a line through the CoG and both the centre line as well as down to the contact patch, we create a triangle. The angle between them is the second lean. This is the added lean required to corner at the same speed as you would have been with infinitely narrow tyres. This also show that wider tyres require more lean narrower tyres. Lorenzo shows us the difference between the bike’s lean and the third lean. With his extreme hanging off the rider is leaned over far more than the bike. The combination of the two - bike and rider - gives the third angle of lean, the combined lean. Bei 62 degree bike lean we can get to an extreme combined value of 66 degrees. What can production bikes muster? We take 4 different bikes and try them on the skid pad sitting in line with the bike, pushing the bike down and hanging off. We then measure bike lean, calculate combined lean and measure cornering speed. What gives the greatest speed? Lean angle with the Husqvarna 701 The skid pad has a diameter of 55 metres. Upright lean is 47 degrees, speed 57 kph. In typical sumo-style, pushing the bike down while leaning out, we managed 57 degrees bike lean and a speed of 62 kph. The combined lean is 51 degrees. This is the biggest difference in the test (6 degrees), a result of a light bike, high CoG, high and wide bars, narrow seat, low set pegs. Final attempt is hanging off, and we get the exact same values of 62 kph and 51 degrees combined lean. The bike is only leaning 46 degrees. So the speed is the same, but pushing the bike down sumo-style bring some advantages; more bike control and easier to catch slides being the predominant. Ducati Diavel, Cruiser & Co. Unlike for sport bikes, cruisers are limited by dragging parts when it comes to possible lean angles. With 41 degrees, the pegs are in contact with the asphalt. This will be the same regardless of what style is used. This gives us a fantastic opportunity to compare cornering speeds between the various riding styles. Sitting up gives 50 kph, pushing down 47 kph and hanging off 53 kph. MotoGP bikes can actually accelerate harder when leaned over than in a straight line. While maximum acceleration on level ground is limited to about 1g, a MotoGP bike can accelerate at 1.2g when leaned over 45 degrees! For street bikes on public roads, 45 degrees means zeron grip left for acceleration. A modern street legal sport bike outfitted with racing tyre and circulating on a grippy race track can give up to 1g of acceleration when leaned over at 40 degrees. Cornering with the Honda Fireblade First we ride on the stock Bridgestone S20 “G” tyres. Hanging off gives 61 kph and 48 degrees of lean for the bike, combined 51 degrees. What difference does qualifying tyres make? WSBK Q-tyre, straight from the heaters, has tremendous grip and feedback. We do not give up until the Fireblade gets “floaty”, a sign we are nearing the limit. With the bike leaned over 53 degrees we reached 65 kph. Combined lean is 55 degrees with the rider hanging off. Why not faster? The asphalt was cold (less than 10C / 50F) and the asphalt not overly grippy. Add a slight negative camber and the limits were like that. But this was the same for all tyres. The problem for the Q-rubber was that they lost their heat rapidly, losing grip in the process. A Pirelli-technician explained that the racers don’t lean further on Qs, but they have more grip available for braking and acceleration. Enough to give about a second lower lap times. Two laps, though, and they are mostly gone. Cornering with the BMW S 1000 R Standard Pirelli Diablo Rosso Corsa allowed 59 km/h when hanging off, with 47 degree bike lean and 50 Grad combined lean was good, but better results were limited by grinding foot peg feelers and gear shift lever. Foto: www.factstudio.de Husqvarna Supermoto 701 Sitting straight made the rider feel uneasy, which limited lean and cornering speed. Foto: www.factstudio.de The Sumo-Stil made the rider feel at most comfortable. Sliding tyres and grinding parts set the limit. Foto: www.factstudio.de If the rider had been able to hang as well off as he was at pushing the bike down, he could have cornered faster. Foto: Archiv Tyre width and CoG Wider tyres demand more lean for any given corner speed. The same goes for lower CoG. The difference between the tall Husky 701 with relatively narrow tyres and the low Diavel with its ultra-wide tyres was 3 degrees when doing 50 kph around the skid pad; 38 for the 701 and 41 for the Diavel. Foto: 2snap Lateral acceleration and lean While 45 degrees of lean gives 1g, 60 degrees give 1.7g, which isn’t the same as going 1.7 times faster by any means. Foto: www.factstudio.de Ducati Diavel A good way to see what the different riding styles can bring. Foto: www.factstudio.de Looks weird, feels weird. Foto: www.factstudio.de Feels much better than pushing the bike down!Foto: Archiv Der Kammsche Kreis This shows how much grip is left to brake or accelerate or steer at various lean angles. If you are leaned over to use half the lateral acceleration, you have 85% grip left to other forces (green arrow). The red arrow indicate that you have only 10% grip left to do anything else than circulate. Grip through the gear effect. Mikrorauigkeit (red) [micro coarseness], with spikes between 0,001 and 0,1 Millimeter is especially useful in the wet, while Makrorauigkeit (green) [macro coarseness] between 0,1 und 10 Millimeter make the difference on dry roads. Foto: Archiv Contact patch with a 180/55 sport tyre with a racing profile at 48 degrees of lean. 38 square centimetres contact area. Typical contact patch is that of a credit card. Public roads are more slippery than tracks, particularly in the wet because the surface lack Microraugkeit. Cold rubber, especially with sport tyres, can cause the tyre to slide on top of the asphalt instead of forming around it. Hence sport rubber is worse than touring rubber below a certain tyre temperature. Karussell around Nürburgring is bumpy and can be taken with 58 degrees of lean. However, thanks to the sloping surface, the angle between the road and machine is just 33 degrees. Lean and speed The Fireblade on WSBK Q-tyres managed 55 degrees of lean and 65 kph. If we theoretically put Marquez on the same skidpad with a combined lean of 66 degrees, he would have circulated at 78 kph.
  2. 2 likes
    Drag racers rebuild their engines after each run. You really think cost is preventing them from running a skinny tire if they could gain a tenth? No. I have corresponded with the author of the article you link and while he might understand physics, I'm not convinced he understands motorcycle dynamics in a practical sense. The truth lies somewhere between the two. I have yet to find the answer. But the closest reasoning I've read that the coefficient of friction rather than being a constant can vary with temperature. Large contact patch might resist temperature change hence resist changes in coefficient of friction. Additionally, coefficient of friction does not accurately describe a rolling and cornering tire that operate with some slip angle. The tire is not stationary but not sliding either. No, it is too simplistic to say contact patch doesn't matter. From a practical motorcycling sense, much of Code's teaching talks about contact patch and friction. Based on all that practical experience of thousands of riders, there is some truth to the statement. Just my opinion.
  3. 2 likes
    At Buttonwillow RT in CA, turn 1, clockwise, April, I attempted a quick flick at 25 mph. It was session 2, first lap, and i went down. The front tire lost traction. After that crash i recalled the T2 video where the question is posed to the class, "Do you quick flick the bike when you're tires are cold?". The resounding answer: NO! The morning temperature was about 50F. Street tires. No tire warmers. I cancelled my late November track say in Chuckwalla without regret. Some like it hot.
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    The short answer: you have to work up to it and feel it out. The longer answer: Testing the grippiness of your tire must be done gradually, the idea is to increase lean angle gradually so that if the tire begins to slide there is some warning and opportunity to save it. The most pro coaches I have talked to on this advise gradually adding a little more lean at a time (corner after corner, or possibly even in the same corner if it is a long one) to feel out the traction, as opposed to just whacking it over to maximum lean and hoping for the best - because if you go too far too fast you will not have enough time to "sample" the traction and see how it feels, and know when you are approaching the limit. Some tires will have a specific feel to them when they are cold: the Dunlop slicks, for example, have a tendency to make the bike want to stand up in the corner and that is a good indicator that they are very cold. The carcass is stiff and reluctant to flex so when you lean into the corner it resists and sort of pushes the bike back up. Some other tires just feel a bit "wandery" in the corner, like they are sort of weaving around slightly, instead of feeling planted. If you have ridden in rain or ridden dirt bikes in the mud, you can recognize the feel of little slides, and little slides like that are your warning that you are at about the limit of traction for the conditions and the tire needs to warm up more before you can lean over any farther. It is a great exercise, when opportunity presents (winter is coming!) to pay VERY close attention to how your tires feel when stone cold, to develop a sense for it with your own bike and your own tire brand/model. It is difficult to quantify how long tires will take to warm up because it depends on tire type, air temp, track temp, wind conditions, how hard you ride, etc., so the best solution I know of is to feel it out carefully.
  5. 2 likes
    It's clear to me that a big piece of the puzzle is the bike set up. Some street bikes need almost effort to steer other require a firm hand, and others yet need assertive gymnastics to make them go where you want. After a decade of pushing a small 400cc fourstroke, Suzuki Impulse around corners at stupid speeds, back in them1990s I had a chance to consider more pricey alternatives. So out for a test ride. Fist a BMW boxer 800cc. Well that was interesting, It really didn't like corners at all. Sure it could change direction, but once turned in it was stuck on line unless brutally steered. Then a Suzuki RF900F. This bike didn't so much love going around corners as ignore the fact that corners might be challenging. Having eliminated the boxer, the two very different Suzukis are worthy of discussion. The Impulse turned as smoothly as the rider permits. Full extreme hang off, body vértices bike turning with the front wheel towing the bike into corners after initial countersteer, or suberbike style half cheek locked in sharp countersteer. Or even wild, suspension hammering turf the bike into the corner and hang on style the Impulse with its marginal 1980s cheap street bike suspension would take it all in stride. And cornered fast just like a lightweight ought to. but then by comparison the RF900f a prices, younger well developed sports tourer made the impulse look like a wanton child. Cornering was smooth, effortless, and stupidly fast. Counter steering -why bother. Hang off - if you really really want to. Lean the bike - nah it's doing that all by itself. How the hell is thing turning - well the obvious answer is it's going where you are turning your head towards. That's it just turning ones head. The once 80kph corner requiring a bit of rider concentration and effort, was just glided through at 80mph with little more than a glance in the right direction. The seated balance was perfect - zero bar weight required loose hands was well effortless. The suspension was unnoticeable. Stitching sweepers, chicanes and multiapex corners simply required the infinitesimal weight transfer that occured when turning the head. Seating remained inline with the bike. And ok, habit had me point a knee out but experimentation showed me that that was more for comfort than necessity. But why the 80kph, and the 80mph comparison. I knew the gorge road very well, a cornering speed 80 kph was what I thought I read on the speedo out of the corner of my eye, and was only a little faster than my norm on the impulse. I was being cautious as the bike was on loan from the store! On the flat and straight I'd time to take a closer look, and spdiscovered the imported bike speedo was miles per hour. So in fact I'd just been smoothly trundling along at 1.5 times the speed I'd thought I was doing on one of the most challenging roads in the city. Technology is a wonderful thing and perhaps explains much of that, but an improvement in corner speed of 35% with zero effort, or practice simply by changing bikes is I think extraordinary. More extraordinary is the minor detail that it's clear that it's not how the rider rides, but how s/he rides a particular bike. Perhaps the impulse could have been riden that extra 35% faster, but I can say for certain not by me! I say that with confidence as I've clocked up about half a million miles on impulses, and riden them to the limit, even occasionally well beyond into stupidly terrifying, brake, suspension and tyre failure territory, for much of that. The RF900F was just a better balanced, way more refined package that enabled the rider. The rf900 was effortless compared to the beasts of the early 1980s like the gsx750, more refined and sharp than the BMW k750, and preposterously more nimble than the Kawasaki gt750. The impulse at very low speeds ran circles around the RF900F for nimbleness but the smooth sharp turns at open road speeds made the fr900 very attractive. What were the true limits of the RF900F I do not know, wisdom got the better of me. I was riding for the street, and I could quite easily imagine being caught out on a day with the flu coming on and loosing my licence because I cruised past a cop at 210 on my way to work. Or potentially crashing at stupid speeds because I was exploring the 900's limits. It also cost twice my annual income at that time. As I've gotten older and heavier, I find myself riding ( the Impulse - still) more upright, with less hang, but slightly more drama ( dancing front end) at times. And slower… . We are now both classics. In the rain less hang, more upright, bike leaned more than rider, means better visibility, and more time to react to road surface issues. It's not pretty and can feel wrong, but it's saved my bacon. But when the air is clear, and the surface is wet, hanging off the inside bike more upright gives one just a tiny edge if traction goes bye bye due to slick surface conditions. Old bold riders have learnt to ride through the problems ahead, by adjusting their style to the bike, the road, and the weather, in addition to their rapidly degrading mental and physical agility.
  6. 2 likes
    That is a pretty bold statement. I disagree. There still needs to be a willingness to go fast, a level of tolerance for speed and G forces, and the visual and processing skills required to be located on the track and in control of the machine, not to mention knowing where to point it. IMO making the bike easier to ride helps free up attention and reduce crashes but won't make an average rider a superstar. Just look at today's bikes, you can buy a crazy high horsepower bike right off a showroom floor that has clutchless shifting and traction control and even electronic suspension, but move an average rider from an aged 600cc bike to one of those and see how much faster the rider really goes. Or just watch a superstar kid on a 1990 RS125 making mincemeat of a bunch of adults on 200hp liter bikes with all the electronic assists, you can see that often enough at a typical track day or race practice. I do agree that riders who learn on bikes that do all those cool things would struggle on an older bike without the electronic assists - just like many teenagers today wouldn't know how to operate a manual transmission car - but that could be overcome with some training and practice, I think the best riders would still rise to the top in either situation, I don't think the bike makes the rider.
  7. 2 likes
    I get the sensation of "pushing" the bike up as a countersteering input coming out of the corner. If you remain in your "hang off" position or even exaggerate it on corner exit with your upper body, you really have no recourse but to countersteer the bike back upright out of the lean. For me that movement of putting bar pressure on the outside hand ( and pulling with the inside hand) could be interpreted as "pushing" a bike up. It's not a subtle sensation. Sometimes you'll have to really "push/pull" to straighten the bike up to get ready for the next corner. Maybe you are essentially saying this...
  8. 2 likes
    One thing I will mention - there is limited info available in the video above. You can hear the engine, see the rider's line and observe lean angle, but one thing you CAN'T tell is the relationship between the rider's throttle-hand INPUT and the engine response. So in the video above when you hear the engine rev up, it sounds odd in some places, like it revs up very quickly then flattens out a bit. That could be caused by traction control intervening (if it is present on this bike), by the tire spinning, maybe even by the clutch slipping - clutches wear out quickly on high horsepower race bikes, race starts are very hard on clutches - it is hard to tell without seeing data that shows throttle input. On the Superbike School student videos the camera is positioned so that the rider's hand is visible on screen, so it would become immediately obvious whether the rider's throttle input was smooth and consistent or not, plus the BMWs can tell you the actual difference between throttle INPUT (from the rider) and OUTPUT (after any traction control intervention) and the data logger can show tire slip rate, too, all of which would make it easier to analyze the video.
  9. 2 likes
    Traction Science Traction limits are hard to reckon for most riders but there are some things to know about it. Traction results from a brew of chemicals the rubber is compounded with, how cleverly the carcass is constructed and shaped, proper inflation, enough tread depth, and maintaining the tire within its optimum temperature range, which varies with different rubber compounds. Heat up a mounted tire to its operating temperature, tilt it over to 45 degrees and apply ever increasing pressure on it. At some point the tire will slip; that amount of load is 101% of the tire's static grip limit. In motion, achieving maximum traction is quite different. As the tire grips it wears. What 'wears out' are the various chemicals, oils, waxes and pigments which bind together the rubber. Abrasion and heat 'cook' them off. You've noticed the bluish-purplish color of a tire from hard cornering, it's called 'blooming'. That is the residue from the chemicals which have been leached out of the tire from heat. It takes very little abrasion to wear it off, maybe a lap. The oily parts—in sufficient quantity to maintain the rubber's flexible and compliant character—support its ability to mate with the road's surface. When they 'cook off', the tire becomes dry and slippery, like dead skin peeling off a sunburn. That sun-cooked layer must be cleaned off to expose fresh skin, or, in this case, fresh rubber. Cleaning it off requires abrasion. The amount of abrasion needed is provided by tire slippage. Tire engineers agree that roughly 15% longitudinal slippage maintains friction value peaks which includes maintaining peak operating temperature. You'd be mistaken to think this 'slippage' is a 'slide': in a corner, the bike is holding its line. It is what is needed to achieve peak traction; considerably less slippage is needed for cleaning it. Depleted rubber must be scrubbed from both tires. There being no power to the front it relies on three forces: 1) slip angle, 2) side grip friction, and 3) abrasion from braking, to uncover fresh rubber. In the steady state part of a corner (after braking and before acceleration) both tires clean up from slip angle and side grip abrasion. Slip angle is interesting. If you were able to freeze the lean and the turned-in front wheel angle you have while going through a corner, then got off and pushed it, the line would be much tighter than when you were riding. The bike's tendency is to always go straight—until some outside force influences it to turn. The turned-in front wheel is that influence—it creates abrasion resistance which forces the bike to go into and hold its arc through the corner. The tires are actually slipping sideways toward the outside, hence, slip angle. The side-slip in skiing is similar. But that's not the whole picture. Camber Force is another factor. Although it has substantially less effect on tire wear, it plays a part in traction. It works like this: On both tires, the outside of the patch (the chicken stripe side) is on a tighter radius than the side that's closest to the tire's center line. Think of a playground merry-go-round. The outside is traveling further in the same amount of time as the inside and therefore going faster than the inside. Conversely, the side of the contact-patch closest to the middle of the corner, is turning slower and is dragging. This creates rubber-cleansing abrasion and also helps the bike stay on its line. (To find more data look up the technical definition of camber thrust or camber force.) In any corner and at any speed sufficient to keep the bike moving and balanced, the tires are always slipping, at least slightly. You wouldn't get through corners or have to replace tires if they didn't. © 2014, Keith Code, all rights...
  10. 2 likes
    bingo - that's it in a nutshell. I think it's the quintessential dilemma for most aspiring riders: how much faster can I go before it results in disaster? If it truly ISN'T a knife-edge limit, then I guess it comes down to the combination of a machine that's set up in a way that lessens the abruptness of the loss of traction (when that slip vs feel non-linearity becomes uncomfortably exponential), and a rider's willingness and ability to ride through it. the last part is why is finally decided to cough up the big bucks for two days at CSS at Laguna. I guess I was just interested in first hand testimonial from guys/gals that do ride deep in that slip zone. I think at your school in Laguna you will be pleasantly surprised to find out a variety of ways you CAN go significantly faster WITHOUT having to slide more. Your personal style and setup may end up including a greater or lesser degree of sliding, depending on your preference, but for sure CSS will give you tools to predict, and manage and/or avoid sliding. As far as personal experience goes - I am obviously not riding at MotoGP level, but I am racing competitively and I don't slide much at all. I pass a lot of people who are sliding a LOT, and often I can see errors in their technique that are causing the slides. Here are some things I see a lot in races: - trail braking and too much tension on the bars causing front end slides - over-braking, getting the corner entry speed too low, then whacking the throttle on too hard mid-turn and sliding the rear - braking hard with tension on the bars causing the back end to wag around or step out - crossed up body position resulting in excessive lean angle, combined with imperfect throttle control, causing front or back end slides These are the ones I see the most and are the most obvious but there are other reasons having to do with line selection, etc. For me, the more schools I attended, the more confidence I had in what the bike was going to do - so the limit seemed less and less like an unknown sudden-disaster possibility. Getting educated and getting the survival instincts under control does WONDERS for confidence and control.
  11. 1 like
    RE Car tire widths... The movement of a car tire when turning is split between the wheel and the tire. The steps involved are: Turn steering wheel the wheels turn while the tires remain in original position the tires then let go of the road surface and twist to get back in line with the position of the wheel This repeats in little steps over and over throughout the turn. It happens for rear tires too but it's the attitude of the car which turns the rear wheels. In both cases, the tires lag behind the wheel, let go of the road, and catch up with the wheel as long as the direction is being changed. The way a tire performs this sideways deflection (twist) is a product of sidewall height and tire width. This is one of the main reasons race cars have low profiles and more width. It should be noted that there's a practical limit for how low you can go with profile before losing too much suspension effect from the tire. It's far more desirable to add width as much as possible without hitting suspension components or fenders. Also, you want to increase the wheels along with increases in tire because even though you can often add +5 or +10 mm for a given wheel size, it will allow the tire to twist more than if this relationship is controlled. If the article says that more width does not give more grip (in cars), then it is wrong. I spent a lot of time a while back autocrossing and time trialing. I've been to racing schools and read dozens of books about car setup and performance. Classes are tightly controlled about all aspects of the tire including width. Getting a tire that is too wide for your current class bumps you into a different class and your lap times drop. It's easily verified. Anyone involved in racing (bikes or cars) will tell you being able to consistently run laps with little variation is important both for safety and to reliably improve the car's setup. It's not "in your head". It's a real effect. I can't speak to bike tire widths.
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    That should bring your chest closer to the tank and your head a bit forward and to the inside. But some of it could be your fit on the bike, if you feel there is a reach to the bars then it's hard to get a good position. If looking from the front, you should be to the inside of the centerline and along side the bikes CoG.. as shown by Marquez and tried by me..
  13. 1 like
    I agree that managing the contact patch, for all practical purposes, is the way to improve cornering performance. It may or may not be the size of the contact patch vs the forces you apply on the patch, but the logic to balance the chassis and the weight on each tire gives the same result. I don't see this is contradicting anything of the Code principals.
  14. 1 like
    If you read through the article I posted a link to, it concludes that wider tires primarily are for wear reasons. As we all know, a rubber tire sacrifices itself to provide the friction (all the gum balls on your front tire after a track session prove this is so). A small tire dealing with significant friction demands, and in drag racing probably being overloaded will wear fast. So if you had the smallest tires that could support the weight of the car and did a run, you would likely destroy them due to friction heat and mechanical stress. If you were really serious about winning a drag, you could have single pass tires that had just enough strength for a run and then die. They would be smaller and lighter. But you would change tires every single pass. So the extra rubber is for wear and handling of forces - vertical, lateral, roll on the sidewalls/carcass, flex to absorb acceleration and deceleration shock, bumps and so on. It doesn't provide more friction or grip.
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    Great. Practice is a good way to improve your BP. What I see from your photo, you might put some attention to your head position. In that photo a good head position will be if your head is near of your left hand, close to touch it. I know, it isn't easy but if you practice often you will get it. If you Focus in that your back also will form a V shape with the bike axis, and your right arm will be fully extended. thats was my 2 cents. keep riding!
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    Just realized I've posted twice and forgot to read this newbie section! Well in case it wasn't obvious my name is Tom also. I've been track riding for 10 years, street riding for 25. I took level 1 and 2 about 4 or 5 years ago and it changed my life (literally). I was so impressed by the organization (of the material, the coaches, and the staff) that I decided to become an MSF coach and learn to coach motorcycling at a street level. Until my first experience with CSS, I thought coaching was "just follow me" with a point on the tail and someone disappearing 5 turns later. Uhm, what did I learn there? I loved the real coaching stye and I wanted to be that as much as possible. I've been doing MSF Coaching ever since then and now I say I get paid to ride motorcycles (paid should be in heavy air quotes since I'd do it for free, and almost do!) I took level 3 about two months back and for the first time tried the BMWs. It totally ruined me! I was looking at BMW motorcycle websites for days after that. Suddenly my little Ducati 748R seemed so....old. LOL Anyway, reality came back and I've been super excited to learn and apply as much as possible on the little yellow guy. While my background is in engineering, I actually approach motorcycling not as an engineer but as an athlete (air quotes again needed here!!). I think the best thing about motorcycles is that there is a technical aspect, but also a motor skills aspect, and they blend together into a package that takes two lifetimes to master.
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    Newbie's guide to surviving the Cornering Forum! WELCOME...You may have just started riding, or may be a veteran with years of experience under your belt. In any case, if you are reading this, chances are, you are a "Newbie" to the Cornering Forum. Here are some pointers to make your stay here more enjoyable, and to bring you up to speed on things around here. Register You can't participate if you don't sign up. Registration is not instant, every registration is verified by a real person to keep the wackos out (at least those that would rather sell you a plastic rubber chicken than ride). There are a ton of spammers that would like to make our board their personal billboard. to prevent that from happening we review all the registrations. It may take a day or two to get approved, if you really want to post now, fill out the registration, and then send an email with the name and email you registered under to DISCUSSIONBOARD at SUPERBIKESCHOOL dot COM or call the office during normal business hours. Otherwise sit tight and you will get approved typically within 24 hours. Introducing yourself If you are just lurking here, STOP IT! Go ahead and say hello to the community in the Newbies section. Go on. No one will bite you. (Unless of course, you are into that kind of thing) Searching the forum Chances are, your questions have already been asked and answered many times before, so do a search on the topic first. Things like which what is the difference between a one day and two day school, if short riders can use a school bike, GP shift patterns, how not to crash (don't ask Mike), which oil to use (silkolene), how to wash the bike (don't ask Will), how to clean the chain (don't ask James), etc., have been discussed many times before. Search for them first using the link found around the top-right of the page. But don't be afraid to ask anything, that is why the forum is here. Post count under a user's name It doesn't mean they are any good at motorcycling, or know what they are talking about. But it does mean that they have been around here long enough to know who is who, know the inside jokes, and are probably willing to help if they racked up that many posts. Treating other members The school's motorcycling world closer than you may realize. You are bound to run into someone sooner or later. You may be stock somewhere in the middle of nowhere and a person you just met yesterday at a school may come to your rescue. Treat everyone on this board like you are going to see them tomorrow standing next to your riding coach. Ongoing jokes - don't get offended until you are sure it is meant to offend you As a new member, you may find things that don't make sense or are not what they seem, there are some ongoing inside jokes that may come as a surprise to an outsider or a new comer. These jokes are part of the forum's fun nature, and nothing more should be read into them. Do not take it personally. Signatures Please use your head...basically, no large signtures, and no quotes from other users in your signature without first checking with them and receiving their permission. Using Private Messaging (PM) and emails Many new users, when setting their Options, choose to hide their email, or choose to set "Enable Private Messaging?" to No. Suggestion: leave the PM option ON, even if you want to hide your email. Also, modify your settings such that when you receive a PM, an email is automatically sent to you (by the system, not the user) to notify you that you have a PM. This is a great option that is a must. To view your PMs, click on the UserCP link on top of the page, then click on Private Messages link. SPAM People here do not like spammers at all. Even though you may feel like you are offering people some amazing deals on goods or services, if it comes across as SPAM, people won't like it, and SPAM posts are usually deleted right away. If you have a business you want to promote, or you have means of providing a service and making money from it, you are best to contact the school to see what it takes to become a school sponsor and promote your business through the school properly. Some areas that may be of interest to you... Keith's Article Forum: where Keith posts articles between books http://forums.superbikeschool.com/index.php?showforum=11 Student Success/Track Photos: a place to post pics of yourself for other to drool over http://forums.superbikeschool.com/index.php?showforum=16 School Questions: the only area you can post on the forum without being a registered member http://forums.superbikeschool.com/index.php?showforum=7 Hope this helps. -
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    Hey everyone, Just joined the forum. I’ve been riding since 15 years and my first track day was in 2013 at a CSS event in Chennai India. My second CSS session was in 2016 and I did manage a few track days in between that period and post. Needless to say CSS has helped be improve all aspects of my riding on and off the track. However as I have gained the confidence to increase my cornering speed and improve lap times a not so welcome side effect has cropped up :CRASHING! Anyone who has ever crashed knows what a confidence sapping and stressfull event it is and to make it worse the feeling lingers especially when you can’t really pin-point the exact cause of the crash. Let me not get started on the toll it takes on your family… I’ve crashed on all three of my track days since 2016 and I was not so lucky on the last one. Had a small surgery since my UCL on the thumb ruptured. But its all good now and I’m fit for my next trackday, physically atleast. Please direct me to the right Topic on the forum so I can explain the crash and get someone to help pin point the cause…
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    "They are crazy" http://www.crash.net/motogp/interview/283337/1/exclusive-lorenzo-bortolozzo-brembo-interview.html
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    Interesting analogy and it makes me wonder how technology has improved that area as well. I haven't squeezed a trigger in many years. I enjoyed it as a personal challenge. I trained in the profession as a U.S. Marine. One of the things that we were told in Recruit Training is that during bad weather, scores tend to dampen. I took that to heart and wanted to do the opposite; nature obliged my request as I seemed to always be at the range and shooting for score (a component of career progression) during cold and/or wet. Save my score from Recruit Training (Sharpshooter), I've always qualified and added an increasing sequential number to my Expert badge. In my day, just a short 14 years ago we fired weapons with only open sights, the old fashioned way. I saw a video of more recent Marine Recruits using optical sights on their weapons. I was horrified. What had my beloved Corps done??!?!?! Well, I guess that's the way of progress. The thought had occurred to me that it's possible that the technology has a positive effect on accuracy and battlefield engagement outcomes. I don't have the data to support that, but I'm sure there was an Army surplus somewhere and the Marine Corps picked them up to try and make some good use of them.
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    Eggsaggly! And I suspect it is harder to be at the front today than it was 40 years ago, when you could compensate for poor skills with big brass cojones. Take a look at Redding, who was instantly battling for the win riding a 500GP two-stroke for the first time. "I got a good start to lead through Eau Rouge, but this was my first time on the track on two wheels, on a bike I only slung a leg over ten minutes beforehand," revealed Redding. "The rest of the guys rode yesterday, so they had a bit of an advantage in the opening laps, but it didn't take me long to get a feel for the bike and to figure out the lines. "I managed to push my way back up into second and then had a great battle with Steve Plater over the last few laps. In the end I couldn't quite find a way past him before the chequered flag, but second place isn't too bad for my first outing on a 500GP bike!" http://www.crash.net/motogp/news/193303/1/redding-rides-exkevin-schwantz-500cc-suzuki.html
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    Nice discussion about the need to hang off or not. If you can achieve equal laptimes with both techniques, what does it matter which one you use. It will become your personal choice of what you like or not, not a SUM of calculations on angles and forces that should lead to the optimum style for the fastest lap time. For me I really like to wrestle my GSXR1000 around with some decent physical input from my 6f4 body. Why, because it is fun. The same why my track mate on his Ducati 1098 is acting like a Hailwood replica, and having the same amount of fun. Unless you're doing competition, laptimes become more of a priority. For trackdays riders like me fun comes first, and with it a riding style you feel happy with.
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    Thanks for the video. I love watching fast guys go round the track. I think the simple explanation is he is running well within his comfort level in traffic. Simply, the people he is passing at the first part of the video are not nearly as fast as he is. Watching him on clear track, he appears to be running faster and with a wider entry line when appropriate. (Not every corner entry dictates a wide line, not every corner exit dictates using every bit of track.) Entry corners and Exit corners are terms I've heard Ken Hill use in his podcasts. These may be common use terms. Printing a track out on paper and drawing out racing lines that make sense is a great way I've read to get an idea how to take a corner. Bring it to the track and make adjustments as you find you need. I think your question boils down to how does he continue to make corrections to his cornering line after he initiates his lean. (Not that it's ideal. You'd like your inputs to be made at corner entry and be done, right?) But I think the short answer to your question is Countersteering. (at least for me) staying loose on the bars is most important, locking in a secure lower body position on the bike so that you can make fine bar inputs, and assisting the corner lean with appropriate peg weighting (one of the hidden keys to the puzzle for me). I think CSS teaches outer peg weighting to assist locking the leg to the tank. I like it, but I've also found inner peg weighting and sliding your butt almost till it feels you're sitting on your calf really helps hold a tight line.
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    I think CSS has a drill on that at the end of L2, something like pull up drill, or pickup...I forget (wink, wink).
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    Again, it could be due to poor wording on my part if you took this from the translation. But you can shove the bike more upright if you toss yourself into the corner - the force required to move your body will have a counter-force, and this can only go into to bike. So the bike goes one way and the body the other.
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    Like stated above, if you run out of lean angle and drag hard parts, hanging off obviously helps. Short of that, hanging off might give you a small margin or error to add lean/countersteer if you can't make the corner. Way short of that, you probably should just be in a position as comfortable as possible to make your throttle and steering inputs. For me thats the traditional inside of midline with your outside leg locked on tank.
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    Hey! My name is Adam Z. I am looking to get heavily involved in racing....now! I am from Arlington, VA and I am moving to Phoenix, AZ in August. I will be racing at Chuckwalla as soon as I can! I have taken Level I and II at Streets of Willow earlier this year and loved it. Hooked. Cannot get enough! I am taking Level III in September at Streets again. My riding experience is definitely new (only a year old) but I learn fast and listen well. I raced an 1198s and blew it up...it will be rebuilt! Until then, I have an 848 evo for the street, and I am going to buy an S1000rr in December. I came to learn how to ride safer, faster, and better. I do not ride that fast on the street, but if there is a race at the track, I get soooo hype. I love it and I love finding a flow. I am learning a lot and cannot wait to keep learning!!!!! I have a few personal goals for riding and racing, one of them being the IoM TT within the next 4 years. Thank you for allowing me to join and for this community of education. PS- I want to be the fastest of all time ever. Big dreams, big personality, standing at an astounding 5'3".
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    Only problem I have is he says the sitting fist length from the tank is the "old school" way and you should ride up on the tank. In another video from a different seminar he says the exact opposite and says you should ride about a fist length away. Great rider not the best instructor. In many sports the best coaches aren't the best/successful athletes, but those that can analyze and instruct, not to say one couldn't be both.
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    I recently made a west coast swing through Willow Springs and Sonoma. The combination of sleeping in a sleeping bag and the travel across country cut down on the amount of sleep I was getting. This will be more relevant later in the story. Willow Springs is a very fast track and two of the longest corners on the track are also very demanding, turn 2 ( The Rabbit's Ear) and turn 8, the fastest turn west of the Mississippi. I was off the seat and leaned over for what seemed like forever in these turns. It may not be the case but a racing buddy told me He could not bring himself to go as fast as me through these turns, making reference to me having anatomical portions of my body bigger than his. In reality, the most important aspect of going fast through these corners was the ability to manage a comfortable stance and a solid foundation for throttle control, a light touch on the bars, and getting my head and shoulders turned to see the entry, apex and exit. Sonoma didn't seem to be as challenging in this regard but what made it difficult was the fatigue of being on the road for 10 days. On the last day of racing I was pretty much worn out. The lack of sleep and different eating habits compounded the situation. I could feel I was making a few errors. The next to the last race of the day was tough and it started with me forgetting to put on my glasses. I was half way though the warm up lap when I realized everything looked different or actually looked blurry but of course it was to late to do anything about it but ride. I ran off the track three times during the race and was really feeling worn out when I came in but I had another race to ride. The travel, lack of sleep, loading and unloading, changing tires etc etc had taken its toll. I was really tired, had just raced without my glasses and needed to concentrate on the last race of the day, the trip and maybe the last time I would race on this track. I thought back to my beginnings and reflected on how I would need to have a comfortable riding position. My way is this...hug the tank, my inside knee pointing outward toward the exit with the ball of my foot in a position to swivel on the peg. This positioning makes it easier for me to open my inside thigh get the torso turned and the shoulders and head turned to the exit. My outside foot is pointed outward with my heel in toward the bike. This position makes my outside leg feel like a gusset anchoring me to the bike. The combination of the outside leg position, my thigh against the tank and tank grip, and the pressure on the inside peg give me that relaxed stance with less fatigue. I went over this in my mind as I lined up for Formula Thunder. I would be racing my SV650 against Panigale 848's and other bigger displacement bikes. I can remember staying with the first and second place bikes with a desire that had me yelling at myself through "the bowl" in order to stay with them. I remember the battle with the duc behind me ignoring the fact that I, at one point, had lost the front at the final corner pressing to keep my position and battling it out with that rider for the last couple of laps back and forth, back and forth. How do I relate this story with my body position? I was dead tired but took time to review my body positioning and what I would need to do to ride confidently, comfortably, conserving energy. I had the best lap times of the trip in the last race of the trip as tired as I had been at anytime during the trip. People have different solutions for the same problem but for me a 6'2" 180 lbs rider....the foundation for my position is hugging the tank. Cheers.
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    I have the people and resources at my access- there's nothing preventing me from seeing if I can get some interest from the scientific community at my access. I will pitch it tomorrow.
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    I don't know how much hanging off helps, my quick estimation from my Physics training says it does; I'm inclined to go with @faffi in that there's a bit of placebo effect happening. I wished that I could read the MOTORRAD in full. The rider is the most important element of the whole thing and his psychological and mental state is affected by many things. My experience is that it helps me with vision skills. I am not sure why, I have just observed that it does. That alone (IMO) is a major building block and obstacle to quick, safe riding. In the KC article linked above, he polled riders with 2 questions: what result do you want and what do you want to feel; questions that very well could yield different answers- genius. I don't know if we could empirically answer the question as to how much of an effect hanging off has- someone would have to write simulation software to run comparative analysis, a monumental feat considering that all the mathematics on single track vehicles has yet to have been worked out. I think however it could be very worthwhile to propose a robotics experiment to a university; there's an annual competition, the name of which escapes me at the moment. Honda also does motorcycle-robotics experimentation; I know we can resolve a lot of things with either approach because the man-in-the-middle will taint the search for understanding the pure science of it.
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    I fully agree with you, faffi. Reason may be that it is easier to mimic performance riders "looks" than mastering other things that are less evident. Knee down seems to be the highest goal for many riders. Whoever feels the need to hang-off while street riding is speeding big time. What a pass at 11:15 of that vid! On his own words (copied from http://www.mikethebike.com/quotes.htm): The former editor of a magazine asked him: "What do you do to the others in order to beat them apart from outride them?" His response was: "Look at all of them on the front grid before the start. You can see it in their eyes. If they think they can beat you, smile, give a nod and a wink. It works every time. Then you go out and show them what you meant." Sadly, he died 35 years ago.
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    I am not actually dissing hanging off - it will make it possible to corner a bit faster. It will not gain you many seconds per lap, but it will gain maybe 2-3 on average for a top rank rider (me speculating here). Of course, even if it's just a tenth it's worth while. However, I think there are far more important aspects for riders to learn than hanging off. If someone goes faster than before with considerable less lean when the rider start hanging off, it does not (me making a statement) have nearly as much to do with the riding position as with the rider having improved other things (see MOTORRAD figures for what hanging off brings). Also, for street riding, hanging off has disadvantages that, for me at least, outweigh any benefit of leaning a bit less; it is tiring, it usually means you cannot see as far around a corner, and it can make it harder to change direction for something unexpected. But I'm sure there are those finding it worth while. Anyway, it all boil down to this; I believe hanging off is credited for more than it can actually deliver. It is no doubt an important tool for the expert rider, but again I think there are a lot of things that can help much more when it comes to riding safe and fast. Here's a video of Mike Hailwood racing a Ducati. It's fun to watch him going quicker through the esses, despite having a chopperesque amount of wheelbase, rake and trail. The Ducati also made substantially less power than the Kawasaki and Honda that came 2nd and 3rd. It would be very interesting to hear what the coaches think is the main reason why Mike goes that quick compared to the competition, as I do not have a clue.
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    You bring up a very good point... also I probably misspoke in terms of the loss of friction in respect to the change in the normal force. I will say there's parts I am not very well versed when it comes to the artificial gravity experienced in circular motion so I will make statements clear when I am making assumptions and personal opinions here. One thing to note is that first it's the increase in weight experienced by the rider not necessarily the increased in weight of the bike and the rider. That's not to say the weight gain isn't significant; I just don't know how much... best case let's say only the wheels cause the centripetal acceleration and with the good suspension the rest of the bike and rider experiences the 1g laterally, but can't be the full weight of the bike no matter what right? (assumption). The other thing to note is I based it purely based on a horizontal flat surface of the road; where in a banked turn you definitely can go faster. So even with the lateral g-force how much of it is affecting it in the vertical direction to affect the normal force perpendicular to the road surface to the tire; how much is the vertical component. Assuming CG is same is the lateral g-force horizontal and parallel to the ground? But yes the friction lost should/could be negligible even on a flat surface. Regardless like I said you are correct I shouldn't have mentioned the friction part; as the centripetal force is what really causes the loss of friction with the velocity component being squared which is why we go slow (even though amount of friction may not have changed?).
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    6-13 School at Buttonwillow was Awesome! Track layout was really, really fun and facility setup was great. TOTALLY worth the little bit of extra distance from the Los Angeles area and getting to Streets. Fantastic day! This is a Selfish Campaign for another day there on the 2018 schedule...
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    And this is a little harder to observe in the modern era (throttle roll on) with the electronics. They could roll on a lot, but the bike might not give them full amount...again, the modern era.
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    I'm not new, either, but just want to give a brief intro. I'm Lisa, a middle-aged old woman who rides an '02 Ninja ZX6R and '02 Kawasaki ZR7S. I've been riding nearly 8 years and have done Levels I & II of CSS at Pocono. I am always learning, and riding is one of my greatest joys in life.
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    Well, I'm not that new, but this section is, so I'm going to start off. I"m Cobie Fair, Chief Riding Coach (Worldwide) for the Superbike School. My main duties at the school are overseeing the on-track coaching, and training the coaches. Each branch of the school (UK and OZ) have their own Chief Riding Coaches. OK, so the rest of you, post away (and introduce yourselves!) Best, Cobie