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Great photo! Reminds me of alot of the type of that that we usually see from the IoM TT... But really hard to tell what the bike was doing at the time, resting a finger on the brake lever doesn't necessarily mean braking... at first look, I'd be more inclined to think that there was actually not much weight on the front tyre - perhaps it had just touched down after coming over that crest. Similar to this maybe: It also looks like the forks are near fully extended. But yeah - the tyres do have much more grip than probably most people realise, if you let them do their job. As for a leant-over stoppie... I'm skeptical. I am sure it's possible to apply the front brakes while the rear has been unweighted by a crest or similar, but bringing the rear wheel off the ground, while the bike is leaned over, through braking force alone... Hhmmm... Edit to add >> I should clarify that I'm sure it's physically possible, after all there are people who can wheelie out of a turn, so why not do the opposite under brakes? But for someone to have the feel and control for the bike to be leant over, then bring the rear wheel off the ground... that would be a fairly crazy manoeuvre. And before anyone mentions MotoGP or WSBK, etc. - I think we would find that in any instances of the bike leaning, with front brakes applied and the rear wheel off the ground - that the rear wheel was already off the ground, or about to leave the ground before the rider turned. For example if a bike had bad chatter, the rider could have turned in and still be on the front brake while the rear wheel bounces a couple of inches off the ground. Which is very different to a stoppie.

Wow, the sound on those videos are not the best... seems to me that they have reduced the microphone gain, so we can only hear the louder sounds, the lower volume sounds of actual throttle opening could be cut out completely... (or maybe it's just a bad mic) You're right it does seem very strange, if you go by what you hear in those videos it seems like they're getting on the throttle really late. But given how fast they're going, do you think it's possible? The visual doesn't seem to match the sound... Have a look at this onboard video showing Casey Stoner at the Sepang test earlier in the year: That seems like a better quality video, throttle sounds just like what I'd expect? I always find onboard videos really tricky to look at, as far as trying to figure out what the rider/bike is doing. Much more obvious to see in person. Also they could be (or should I say, probably are) using different lines which can account for the different timing. It's also interesting that you mention the different styles in hanging off. But I think you hit it right on the head when you mentioned that the recommendation is for one cheek off the seat. Clearly that's not the only possible way to ride, and no one has ever said that. I always think of Elias and his body position... looks crazy uncomfortable and stressful to me, but then I am not a World Champion. Also those guys in MotoGP like Stoner, Pedrosa - they are really small guys. And they sometimes look as if they're climbing all over their bikes like monkeys. So I think the recommendation for one cheek off still holds true, and will most definitely be beneficial for the majority of riders, who do not posses World Champion skill and tiny physical stature. I don't think there is really any need to resolve all riding styres into a single all-binding "theory". The basics are the same, but racing prototype motorcycles is also alot different to riding street bikes... Anyway, I'm interesting to hear your opinions on that...

I like it. But to be fair, being on a lighter machine you will have a larger safety margin for a given speed... but I know what you're saying. How to know when you nailed a corner... I did that while attending CSS Level 1 earlier this week. Only did it once the entire day, in fact it is probably the only time I've done it in my entire life... but I had turned in and was on the throttle, then hit my apex and it just felt good, I thought "perfect!". Kept the throttle on all the way out of the turn without running wide on the exit, the next corner linked together perfectly as well and I just did it all again. Two perfect corners in a row... you know it when you do it! If I had to define it, I would say that you really nailed it when you only make one steering input, open the throttle smoothly and without hesitation, make your apex, and hold your line on the exit. You can't ask for any more than that, right?

No, not me. I'm still working towards that... It's interesting to note that despite riding faster now than ever before, I'm yet to put my knee down. (Not that 'knee down' is a goal for me, it will just happen when it happens.) It's a funny thing that when you start riding effectively you don't use as much lean angle etc. Riding faster and faster, yet keeping more and more lean angle & safety margin in reserve... But that would be a subject for an entirely new thread... This may not be an accurate way to think about it, since a bike always has cornering forces applied - but... I visualise the red lines in the above diagram as an actual physical structure, say it was created out of steel tube. Now if you set it on the ground and try to balance on it - which peg will you use? You could probably succeed using the 'outside peg', but if you try to balance on the 'inside peg' leant over like that... not a chance. That's a very simplistic example relating to stability, but may not even be valid once you factor in cornering forces... Great example with the barbell, Hotfoot. Makes sense to me.

Interesting that you mention those different riding styles as a reason for the front losing traction before the rear... Looking past the fact that it's more noticeable in the wet (since low traction surfaces are the one situation where it is possible to loose the front purely by steering too quickly), let's consider the example of a racer on a dry track as the 'model example'. Have you ever seen a racer approaching a turn really fast, then as he turns in towards his apex the rear wheel slides to the outside of the corner a little bit? It almost looks as if they were backing in, but they're not. It can be hard for me to spot it on television, but having watched racing in person it really stands out. So under dry conditions on a good surface with good tyres - it's plain to see that the rear tyre will lose traction before the front (if the rider doesn't make unneeded inputs). Add in the fact that the same racers were also using the front brake while they were turning in and the rear was sliding... it just shows what is possible. So then if one person can quick steer without sliding the front, but another person does slide the front - the person who is sliding must be doing something differently to cause the slide. This could be a number of things. To list some of the more common ones that come to mind: holding on tight to the handlebars making additional steering inputs while in the corner (making more than 1 steering input) adding more lean angle (by making additional steering input) using too much brake (locking the wheel) changing body position (causing instability in the bike) poor throttle control (causing instability in the bike) If you're 100% positive that you're not doing any of those things, yet the front tyre still slides before the rear - then it must come down to the one final difference, which is the road surface. You can watch any racing, YouTube videos, etc. and you won't see one single crash caused simply by steering too fast. It will always be due to the road surface, or the rider makes one of those above mentioned riding errors.

Thinking about the question of peg weighting when leaned over at speed, the best explanation of the effect on traction that I can come up with is the 'box' analogy I mentioned on the previous page. Hopefully this diagram will better explain my reasoning: Thinking at extremes makes it easier for me to understand, so imagine that the rider in the above picture is right on the limit of traction. If you look at the angle of the outside peg to the tyre contact patch - it's basically straight on top of it. If I can use the 'box' analogy again - weighting the outside peg would be the equivalent of pushing down on the top of the box, which isn't very likely to make the box slide along the floor. But if you look at the inside peg, any weight there will practically be pushing at the contact patch from the side. This would be the equivalent of pushing on the side of a box - it's going to slide along the floor. Does that make sense? What do you think? It's entirely possible that I have it completely wrong as well!

Hey, no cheating. People like me require 'plain english', please. I'm a bit confused by your last sentence... do you agree that a motorcycle with a constant speed requires no steering input to maintain a path through a corner?

Hey Jaybird, your comment caught my attention with the way you describe pushing beyond the limit of traction... from what you describe there, it seems like you actually found the limit of that particular road surface, not the limit of the tyre. On a good clean surface, with good tyres that are up to working temperature - if you turn quickly enough into a corner the rear tyre will actually slide before the front does. (Of course it's still possible to slide the front well before this if the rider makes a mistake such as locking the front wheel or making additional steering inputs.)

Hi All, Just wanted to give some feedback and let all the CSS crew and others who may be considering doing the school know about some great success (I think) that I had after attending the CSS. My case is a bit different, because I only completed Level 1 yesterday, but I had already had some pretty good success... reason being that I actually went out to Queensland Raceway for Coach Tryouts last September. Even though I was not there as a student, and did not have a Coach assisting me, I still managed to take away some great points from the day. The very next track day I started off in Intermediate - Slow group which I had been riding in for years previously. A few laps in I was starting to feel that everyone was just getting in my way... going too slow... or could I have been going that much faster after putting to practice those few points I'd learnt at CSS? I moved up to Intermediate - Fast and felt much more comfortable. I thought maybe that there were just more slower riders than usual in the Slow Intermediate group, but I don't think that was the case. In December last year I went to my 2nd track day after being at CSS, except this time there weren't as many riders and they combined Intermediate Fast with Advanced (guys running slicks and tyre warmers). I was a bit nervous of being out of my depth with those fast guys, but as the day went on I was surprised to find that there were only 3 or 4 riders who consistently lapped me each session. Maybe there weren't that many from Advanced group there? Perhaps. But I'd expect to be passed alot more by people using slick tyres, especially since I was 'only' using Power Pure's... But after those days were done, I could only credit CSS with the improvement in my riding. Getting in to actually complete Level 1 as a student was a priority, and helped to round out my understanding of all the Level 1 drills. Having Tony (my Coach) point out some things that I was doing helped me to correct some bad habits as well. Notable points of the day included learning how to ride off the track and into a gravel trap at well over 100km/h (for anyone who has not done CSS, don't worry - this is definitely not part of the curriculum. ) I had never left the track at anything close to that speed before, let alone into deep gravel. I kept it up, pretty sure that was during the session we were working on the 'funky chicken' drill. Timely information, yeah I reckon there is some benefit to it. The other great thing about having a Coach is that they can point out what areas you're doing really well in. Tony mentioned early in the day that he noticed I was using the quick steer, but once we got to the quick steer drill and I began to concentrate on it, that was pretty good. I found out that I can do a pretty mean quick steer, which is good to know - something else that I can work to improve. Accentuate the positives, right?! I had mentioned to a friend that I was going to do CSS, and asked if he wanted to come as well (he had recently traded his K4 GSX-R1000 for a new GSX1400). Strangely though, he said he didn't want to do CSS on the 14, but would take it to a track day. I'm not sure why he was thinking that way... but my experience was that I was actually uncomfortable in the very first session because the pace was so slow. Not yesterday when I was attending as a student, but when I was there for the very first time in September for the tryouts. As a track day regular it was something very different from what I was used to. My usual rhythm was thrown out of whack as I tried to fit in with everyone else using 4th gear and no brakes... with a regular track day as my only frame of reference to track riding, I was actually expecting to see a black flag pointed at me... but of course I didn't, and then I realised that my mate with the GSX1400 shouldn't have been worried about not having a sportbike, because you just ride at whatever pace is comfortable. All up it was a great experience, but now the work really starts and I have to practice what I've learnt. I ought to have plenty of opportunity for practice during the 5 prepaid track days that need to be used before July. Ah, the things some people are made to do! I'm not expecting quite as dramatic an improvement as I saw after my initial exposure to CSS, but I'm sure the benefit will definitely be there and I'm looking forward to see what I can do. From July onwards I'll be making plans and looking forward to completing Level 2, can't wait!

To further the discussion on electronic aids, traction control specifically, I just wanted to share an interesting snippet from Two Wheels (Aussie bike magazine). What it comes down to is that anyone who thinks that traction control will interfere with their riding, are saying that they're better than Rossi.

Ahhhh... just to clarify I have only been talking specifically about reduced traction situations like hard acceleration (enough to make the tyre slip), or riding on dusty/sandy/dirty surfaces. If we're just talking about a relatively sedate ride, not pushing the limits of traction, then in that case I'd say no - peg weighting would have (very) minimal effect, if any. Some years ago after I read about outside peg weighting, I used to think that somehow taking weight off it would be bad (causing a loss of traction). Well I eventually got over that idea. I remember one WSBK race, it was the final chicane at Magny-Cours and Troy Bayliss (probably his last year in WSBK) was exiting that section and as he was making the final left corner his outside foot came off the peg. Of course that means that he would have been using a fair amount of weight on the inside peg to hold himself on the bike, and he didn't crash. Which put paid to the idea that the outside peg needs to be weighted all the time while the bike is leant over.

I'd say yes absolutely it matters which peg is weighted. And just to clarify - the only reason we're talking about the affect on the rear is because we're focusing on acceleration out of a corner, right? Because most of the weight/forces etc. are transferred to the rear tyre under acceleration? But I'd also say that it could have a big affect on both front and rear tyres mid-corner as well. It would make sense that as the lean angle decreases, the difference between outside/inside peg weighting would not be as much, you would expect to be able to transfer the weight to either without much change. Thinking about this some more, I realised where I may be able to use some peg weighting. Just about every time I open the throttle to drive out of a corner, the rear tyre will slip just a little bit. Never even occurred to me that I could do something to stop it, I thought that was just the limit of the tyres (Power Pure - definitely a street tyre, the Michelin usage chart recommends 20% track riding). So I'm guessing the right time to add some weight to the rear peg is mid-corner, right at the moment (or just before) the throttle is opened? I will try and experiment with this and report back with my results.

Cheers for that, good to know. Not that I have warmers or anything, I stick to the old school method of parking my bike in the sun to warm the tyres.

Hmmm... I've gotta get up to Level 3 and see what this is all about... I think I just have a different idea of what 'weighting the peg' means. To me, if I told someone I was weighting the peg, I would mean that the majority of my weight was on the footpeg (rather than the seat). But as I ride now I just 'lock in' my outside leg, but I am well and truly sat on the seat with the majority of my weight. I wouldn't say that I 'push' on the outside peg at all. I've never had a problem when moving my body to get setup for a corner. I always do that when the bike is upright, so it's just as if I'm making a movement to 'stand up' with both feet. Then at the end of that movement I make a quick check with the foot which will be to the outside of the corner to make sure my foot/ankle/knee are 'locked in'. But I'll see if I can have a play around and find out what you guys are talking about.

Welcome Lnewqban, I've seen you around the forum and realised that I haven't said 'hi' to any of the new members! Looks like you'll be the 'go-to' mathematics man, huh?

Hey Narcosis, welcome to the forum! Trading up to a CBR is probably a good move if you want to get serious about track days. Great bikes from what I have heard as well... Ismaic, have a look over on the Aussie CSS site, there's some good reviews that cover each level - should give you a good idea of what to expect! http://www.superbikeschool.com.au/sbs_whattheysay/everyday-joe-two-wheels Cheers, Conrad

Welcome, Jeremiah. I would be very interested in a bit of a review after you complete CodeRACE as well. Is that something that has only recently started up? I've seen it mentioned a few times, but have no idea what it's all about really. Time for me to visit Google...

Welcome, Magmadragoon. Feel free to jump into other areas of the forum and get involved! A race track that also has accommodation??! That is just about my ideal holiday spot!!

Hey Kwak, welcome to the forum. Have you read either of the Twist of the Wrist books, or watched TOTW II DVD? You might find them really interesting & they may 'get you up to speed' a little while you're waiting to attend CSS. Cheers, Conrad

Hey Crash, it sounds like you were spot on with your observation about the turn in speed. You've practiced swerving - you bet you can turn at the same speed into a corner! I think it was Keith Code himself who has been cited as trying to quick steer so fast that the front lost grip, and he didn't manage to do it. Adding throttle, brakes, or making additional steering inputs are what will bring you undone. This is true for every single example I've seen. The MotoGP/WSBK etc. replays are great to see this - take a close look next time and you'll be guaranteed the rider makes a change to throttle/brakes/steering to cause the crash. It is never just because of turning in. You should be confident that you can turn quick and you don't need to pick up the throttle straight away either. That is just about another topic in itself, but for the sake of road riding consider an example where you are approaching a turn faster than you planned - in this instance the best course is to leave the throttle and brakes alone, just concentrate on turning. You can use high lean, right to the apex or past it, without throttle. And I mean literally closed, zero throttle. Once you 'accept' this and have confidence in it, it leaves so much free concentration to focus on turning. (As always, all the points I mention are assuming good tyres at operating temperature, good road surface etc.)

Pivot steering... just to make sure I'm on the same wavelength - is pivot steering where you apply pressure to the outside foot peg during the steering input? I think I see what you're saying Centurion, as well as what the Wiki article is getting at. I noticed that alot changes in fast corners as well, I was trying to do the usual 'quick steer' into one and it was just really difficult. I mean it was physically difficult to put enough pressure on the 'bar and get it to turn quickly. (I was approaching the turn point at around... maybe 170-180km/h when I was trying this.) Rather than being confusing, this makes complete sense because of the much greater rotational force in the front wheel which is resisting your steering inputs. So I had to make my turn point alot earlier and the line turned into a big smooth arc. (Using the earlier turn point, I was more confident of making the turn and was able to arrive at the turn point doing about 200km/h, barely rolling off - it was definitely a faster way through there.) Now I think what the Wikipedia article is saying, is that because there are much greater forces in play, the steering input will take longer. And so this will mean that the time you're pushing on the inside 'bar is longer than needed for a low speed corner where you can really 'quick steer'. Faster corner = longer steering input (you will be pushing on the 'bar for a greater length of time.) Slower corner = shorter steering input (you will be pushing on the 'bar for a much shorter length of time.) Is that what everyone is getting from this? I would think that the article is describing that sustained initial steering input rather than making an additional input mid-turn. What Crash describes seems correct to me - a bike with a constant speed does not need steering input to maintain lean angle. But I think there's a bit of confusion over that Wiki article. And no offence to whoever wrote it, but that is not written in the most easily readable manner - looks like it was written by an engineering professor or something (sorry, no offence to engeineers or professors either.) If I can translate it into something that's actually easily comprehensible... it's not saying that a steering input is needed to hold the bike in the turn, it's saying that steering input it's needed to turn the bike (it's describing the initial steering input). This must be true, because I don't know of any instance that I've seen or experienced where the front tyre can be pointed towards the outside of a turn other than during steering inputs or when the rear wheel is sliding (dirt track, anyone?). In the case of your corner with the crest, that's another problem to deal with. As the road 'falls away', will the will the forks spring into action (haha, I made a pun ), and will the forks actually extend? If the forks extend, will that change the geometry of the bike? If the geometry of the bike changes, will it maintain it's previous cornering line?

Wow - thread resurrection! But yes, very important topic. I've often thought about confidence and it's role in motorcycling. I came to the conclusion that if there was a pro racer, but they were very nervous and not at all confident for some reason - racing against a novice who was overflowing with confidence, I would put my money on the novice. I have often wondered if confidence is actually one of the most important attitudes/attributes when it comes to motorcycling. Thinking back on my own experience, it's amazing how blind confidence has brought me through difficult situations. I think if you're confident, your thoughts won't even go to SR's. And as long as you don't lock up and target fixate etc. most times the bike will sort itself out and it'll all be fine. Of course that needs to be real confidence, since you don't really "think" about SR's, they're more of an involuntary/sub-conscious reaction as the name suggests. Which is why having a crash and knocking your confidence can bring about a whole lot of unpleasant and uncomfortable feelings when you get back on a bike... I will do anything possible to avoid losing confidence. If I crash, I will start to track down the problem as soon as possible. Once I know the problem I can make a mental note and make sure it doesn't happen again. Then I know that I can stop it from happening again, confidence restored. At least that is the theory. It's not always so easy in practice...

Mmmm... Speedy Triple... hold on tight to your license. warregl - dangerous comments, some people may think that what followed you home and what you were dating were one and the same.

I'm using one of the slightly older Forcefield back protectors. Why? Because I needed one for this particular weekend, only had time to visit one shop, and that is what they had in stock. Most track day organisations recommend/require back protectors for the faster groups and I was moving up so I guess riding faster is the real reason why I needed one. Thinking about adding a Forcefield chest protector as well. Probably some hip & leg protection in the future also. I've never yet crashed on track, but as the speed increases so does the potential for bad consequences if you get something wrong. As (one of) my personal motto goes, "I don't plan to crash, but I do plan to make it home."

I was going to suggest what Spidey mentioned - just finding a suit that fit the important parts and then get it altered to remove the bulk/sagging areas. Then again, if you can wait and save up a bit longer for a custom suit it may be worth it. Tiger Angel is an Australian company that specialises in custom leathers (they do international orders as well), I've heard nothing but good things about them. If you buy a suit like that it will literally last a lifetime (they have been in business for a long time and there are people who bought suits and are still wearing them 30+ years later). I'm sure many of those other custom made suppliers would be similar. And a general tip when choosing any leather goods - most advertise the thickness of the leather (1.3mm, 1.5mm etc.). I used to think that the thicker leather offers better protection, I'm sure there are others that think along similar lines. But this is generally not true. Thinner leather is actually better quality and will mean a lighter, more comfortable suit. Thicker leather is not quite as good quality, and needs to be thicker to offer the same level of protection, and you'll end up with a heavier, more bulky suit.