jodypresti Posted August 28, 2009 Report Share Posted August 28, 2009 I have been lucky enough to do six days with CSS this year and each one has greatly improved my riding. I had an incident last weekend and would like to offer a question to the group. The rider in this clip carried way too much speed into the corner (in my opinion) and left me with some significant injuries and a badly wrecked track bike. Several folks have confirmed that this is a bad pass, needless to say. That part isn't up for debate. My question is what could this rider have done to keep from ending my season? I didn't see it coming and don't remember the wreck fortunately. Another bike's camera did catch the most important part. Upon coming home I have to soberly ask myself if there is anything he could have done to avoid hitting me or anything I could have done differently? I felt that my approach was appropriate although I didn't fully execute a quick turn. Considering his speed, do you feel he could have made the corner without taking me out? To properly setup the clip it was raining mildly and this was the second or third lap of a morning session. Roll the tape... I'll close reminding folks that track days are not races. Be considerate and ride safe! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bullet Posted August 28, 2009 Report Share Posted August 28, 2009 I have been lucky enough to do six days with CSS this year and each one has greatly improved my riding. I had an incident last weekend and would like to offer a question to the group. The rider in this clip carried way too much speed into the corner (in my opinion) and left me with some significant injuries and a badly wrecked track bike. Several folks have confirmed that this is a bad pass, needless to say. That part isn't up for debate. My question is what could this rider have done to keep from ending my season? I didn't see it coming and don't remember the wreck fortunately. Another bike's camera did catch the most important part. Upon coming home I have to soberly ask myself if there is anything he could have done to avoid hitting me or anything I could have done differently? I felt that my approach was appropriate although I didn't fully execute a quick turn. Considering his speed, do you feel he could have made the corner without taking me out? To properly setup the clip it was raining mildly and this was the second or third lap of a morning session. Roll the tape... I'll close reminding folks that track days are not races. Be considerate and ride safe! Wow, I have to say, that probably goes down as one of the very worst overtakes gone wrong I think I've ever seen really. That really is quite out of order. Would he of made the turn, maybe, but bearing in mind everyone else was going the better part of 30mph or so slower, his riding was completely in appropropriate to the other riders around him. He could probably have gone on the grass, but he'd have better to go around the outside of everyone to avoid them and he'd commited to his line and was stuck really. I guess it's a possibility the fella, had a mechanical failure of some sort which precluded him from stopping quickly enough, but it's an outside chance more than a reality I'd have thought. Sure we all make mistakes, and the guys "hopefully", admitted he's done really badly, and he should definitely be repairing your bike for you, I would expect nothing less. I do hope your ok mate, that looked pretty bad, and that it doesn't ruin in your riding, your hobby, and you rider progress, and that you're able to get back to it as soon as possible. Please keep us all updated on progress of your recovery, and what happens with getting this guy to pay for you bike. Bullet Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
fossilfuel Posted August 28, 2009 Report Share Posted August 28, 2009 Jody, That was awful! Bullet is so right. That scenario is one of my worst fears of riding on the track. Not something you did but what someone does to you riding over their head or making bad decisions. My riding philosophy is to show respect to the rider in front of me. There is plenty of track time and plenty of places to pass so be considerate and we all make it home in one piece. Take care Jody. I hope you continue to ride. That was at VIR? What track organization sponsored that event? Was this Novice, Intermediate, Advanced? I went back and looked at this recording again and it is my opinion that he never saw you. But, most of the riders in that group were riding at a much slower pace than he was and no matter what your skill set is or how good you are....riding at that much faster pace in that group is not good for the other riders. If I am an expert rider and I am riding in Novice class then I need to slow my pace down so that I can anticipate and react to the riders around me. If on the other hand I am a Novice riding over my head then the coaches or controll riders should pull the guy over and have a little chat. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
chocadile Posted August 28, 2009 Report Share Posted August 28, 2009 WOW Jody I hope you're alright, that looked brutal. From watching the vid I don't think there is anyway that guy could've made the corner even with a clear track. I can't even begin to think what was going through his head when he came in so hot. As Bullet said hope the guy is a good enough person to take responsibilty for his actions and gets your bike fixed. Good luck with the healing Jody, hope to see you out on the track sometime soon. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jodypresti Posted August 28, 2009 Author Report Share Posted August 28, 2009 Thanks for the replies. He did come to the hospital and wished me well. No offer to pay for my medical bills, bike and gear damages. And, no phone call or e-mail since the incident to follow-up. A real gent eh? We were riding in the I group. I have been bumped to advanced with the other orgs that I ride with and can attest that it is a safer environment up the ladder. At a minimum you can trust your fellow rider, or should be able to. This was my first time at VIR and this was the south course. It had started to rain so I think all of us were backing off a bit. The rider who with the camera told me were traveling between 70-80mph so I can assume the other rider was going closer to 100mph or more. I have watched film from other folks that carry similar speed in that corner albeit in much safer conditions and nearing race pace. Good news is that I'm healing just fine but it will be awhile before I can get back on a bike. Thanks again for your thoughts and I concur that the only place to make that pass is on the outside. Wrong place, wrong time for me. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
abhoy Posted August 28, 2009 Report Share Posted August 28, 2009 Jody, heal up soon. IMHO - you're being too nice. Watching that clip it doesn't matter - This is not an accident - he rammed into you which seems too reckless on his part. I'll say it - You have it on tape - take him too court! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
dbtriple Posted August 28, 2009 Report Share Posted August 28, 2009 Jody you must have killed a chinaman to have the bad luck to get that pass made on you. Even after he used you as a berm he still ran wide! What a plonker. And in the rain too. The only way he could have made that turn on that line at that pace would be......no I don't think it could be done. Get well soon mate and you'll be hanging off again in no time regards db Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
sleepr Posted August 29, 2009 Report Share Posted August 29, 2009 Well Jody I'm glad you will recover and are reasonably OK. That was clearly a situation that should not have happened, it would appear to be lack of oxygen to his brain because no smart sane individual should have attempted that kind of overtaking in that situation with that number of riders with such a drastic speed differential. As a Canuck we tend to joke about the litigious nature of the US but in this case if he can't even make some attempt to cover your costs in a gentlemanly manner, then court may your only recourse. As Bullet mentioned a mechanical could have caused it but I assume he would have claimed that already if it was the case. I'm looking forward the time you can tell us your back in the saddle, please keep us apprised of the situation. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Kevin Kane Posted August 29, 2009 Report Share Posted August 29, 2009 then court may your only recourse. I think the waiver we all sign at track events could affect Jody's ability to pursue him legally but if there was ever a good situation to pursue it - it would be this incident. I am curious if there is any chatter on their message board about this incident but if not, a guy I work with is a control rider for them in the northeast and I will show him the video when I return from my current road trip. That organization has a better reputation that this incident illustrates; at a minimum I would expect some club endorsed sanctions against this rider. I'll let you know what I learn. Rainman. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Apollo Posted August 30, 2009 Report Share Posted August 30, 2009 Hope you're healing well and fast! Definitely the fear of most sane riders at trackdays. Sorry to hear the rider hasn't made any attempt to do right from an honor standpoint, regardless of the liability waivers. At best, a ban by the trackday provider may be possible. Unfortunately, I can't see any way for the front rider to prevent incidents like that. It looked just like the Guintoli Brookes crash in British Superbikes. The video seems to show he was abreast of you at impact (pretty fuzzy video)? The only very slight possibility I can see for prevention in a similar case would be if one could see that flash of red in peripheral vision right before impact and could stand the bike up enough for a glancing blow instead of the T-bone. With the closure rate though, I doubt anyone has quick enough reaction time or bike movement time to have prevented this accident. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jodypresti Posted August 31, 2009 Author Report Share Posted August 31, 2009 I'm a pretty quick reflexed guy and although I don't remember the crash (or much else from that day) I am pretty certain that his closing speed didn't allow an opportunity to accomodate him in the corner. While he hasn't spoken on the matter the rumor amongst those in the paddock was that he had a head shake coming out of the prior corner and had zero pressure in the front brake. Three pumps with nothing there. I feel this is plausible given the disparate level of speed compared to the pack into the corner. I may have backed off too much given the conditions and didn't leave him a place to go. However, I would have preferred that he take it into the grass or low side the bike if he had no brakes. Would have saved me a lot of pain and a long period of recovery and rebuilding my bike. C'est la vie. At the track anything can happen. Let's close the thread and get back to riding smart and safely. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
hubbard_28 Posted September 1, 2009 Report Share Posted September 1, 2009 Even if he was out of brakes in the last corner, there was more than enough space, and an uphill to pull over and not be a danger to everyone else. I can't imagine what he was thinking. And if I was having problems with my brakes and didn't have the sense to get off the gas and track, when I went to the hospital to apologize, I probably would have put that in my explanation. I'd feel like enough of a tool. An accident is an accident, but this one is just so hard to explain. And there was absolutely nothing you could have done to prevent or minimize the impact of that. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
lwarner Posted September 1, 2009 Report Share Posted September 1, 2009 As the overtaking rider it was his responsibility to assure your safety. As the owner of his bike it is his responsibility to assure it is mechanically sound. I can't really see any excuse for him to be smashing through that group at that speed, he's lucky he only hit one rider. He should bite the bullet and pay. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Adam06 Posted September 2, 2009 Report Share Posted September 2, 2009 If he was going to do anything to avoid hitting you Jody, he would have needed to do it back before he came into that camera's view. I'm with Bullet. That's about as bad a judge of speed and distance as I've seen. We run Track Days here in Oz as well as the schools, and for sure, we'd be tracking that guy down. Hope you heal quick and get back to the track soon. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jaybird180 Posted September 2, 2009 Report Share Posted September 2, 2009 I'm sorry to be the lone dissenter on this one. If it is true as Jody stated that he had a brake failure, then there is no fault. Sad but it's the reason we all sign waivers. Things happen. Is it fair: NO, it is not fair. Was it fair for the lady racer awhile back who died at a trackday? NO it was not fair. IMHO, IF he had brake failure, judging by the way he came in, he had no other alternative other than TRY and make the corner, which it looks like he attempted. Regardless of his efforts, it looks like he would have run wide if no one was there and in which case he could have then been in the grass and possibly gotten the bike to slow down. I'm sorry about what happened to you Jody. I don't think you did anything wrong, just wrong time and place, buddy. But this incident is an example of something that we all as riders need to think about and if we haven't then we are not practicing good risk management. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
kawdude636 Posted September 2, 2009 Report Share Posted September 2, 2009 worst overtake attempt I've seen in awhile... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Kevin Kane Posted September 2, 2009 Report Share Posted September 2, 2009 IMHO, IF he had brake failure, judging by the way he came in, he had no other alternative other than TRY and make the corner, which it looks like he attempted. Regardless of his efforts, it looks like he would have run wide if no one was there and in which case he could have then been in the grass and possibly gotten the bike to slow down. JB, Watch it again. If he had brake failure (or any other mechanical issue) why does he maintain his pace as he powers away from the incident and proceed to make the following two turns? He actually goes onto the grass on the following corner but not the next. I have had more than one mechanical failure on the track with the worst being a throttle stuck WFO (more than once). The first thing I always do is throw up my left hand up and then try to deal with the issue once I have alerted the following riders that there is a problem. What I never do is to keep going as if everything is all right. Kevin Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Gigi Posted September 2, 2009 Report Share Posted September 2, 2009 wow! Were did that guy came from!!!?! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Fajita Dave Posted September 2, 2009 Report Share Posted September 2, 2009 IMHO, IF he had brake failure, judging by the way he came in, he had no other alternative other than TRY and make the corner, which it looks like he attempted. Regardless of his efforts, it looks like he would have run wide if no one was there and in which case he could have then been in the grass and possibly gotten the bike to slow down. JB, Watch it again. If he had brake failure (or any other mechanical issue) why does he maintain his pace as he powers away from the incident and proceed to make the following two turns? He actually goes onto the grass on the following corner but not the next. I have had more than one mechanical failure on the track with the worst being a throttle stuck WFO (more than once). The first thing I always do is throw up my left hand up and then try to deal with the issue once I have alerted the following riders that there is a problem. What I never do is to keep going as if everything is all right. Kevin If you get head shake hard enough it can push the brake pads away from the disks. If this happens you need to pump the brakes 4 or 5 times and get the pads back in place. Just like when you change you're front brake pads and the pistons are pushed all the way in. Stuff like that can happen on the track. Someone who owns a motorcycle repair shop around here goes to track days pretty often. He came out of the last corner (I think at VIR) and his handle bars just turned sideways with no resistance and he went down. The last bike that went through there put oil down on the track and he was the first one to hit it. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jaybird180 Posted September 2, 2009 Report Share Posted September 2, 2009 IMHO, IF he had brake failure, judging by the way he came in, he had no other alternative other than TRY and make the corner, which it looks like he attempted. Regardless of his efforts, it looks like he would have run wide if no one was there and in which case he could have then been in the grass and possibly gotten the bike to slow down. JB, Watch it again. If he had brake failure (or any other mechanical issue) why does he maintain his pace as he powers away from the incident and proceed to make the following two turns? He actually goes onto the grass on the following corner but not the next. I have had more than one mechanical failure on the track with the worst being a throttle stuck WFO (more than once). The first thing I always do is throw up my left hand up and then try to deal with the issue once I have alerted the following riders that there is a problem. What I never do is to keep going as if everything is all right. Kevin Yeah, you have a point about him keeping going after the incident, and for that someone should find out from him why. Did he think that it was just a bump or what??? If he doesn't have a good reason, then I say he needs some serious counseling. I'm sure he's not the first nor last trackday racer out there. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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