Cobie Fair

School Levels, 1-4

26 posts in this topic

Got a suggestion we pin this topic, so here we go.

 

Level 1: everyone starts there. Not because it's for beginners, but it has the most critical information first. All the top pros that go through the school start with this level. This doesn't equate to beginning, or you will have to go slowly, it's more key foundation material.

 

We often get the upper level students (been through level 4 a number of times) requesting to go back through previous levels.

 

Level 2 build upon 1, Level 3 upon 2, and Level 4 we create an individualized coaching program--which require the previous levels to fully grasp.

 

Hope this helps!

 

Best,

Cobie

 

PS: if it doesn't, post your questions, or call the office.

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I'm thinking its going to be near impossible to learn in the 1-4 courses what I could learn in no time flat in the two day course. I'm 58 and I don't want to spend too much time in squidville. It's going to be financially tough but its a priority on my bucket list. I'm sure I will want to do at least a day course every year thereafter but now I want the immersion. It's a no brainier right?

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I'm thinking its going to be near impossible to learn in the 1-4 courses what I could learn in no time flat in the two day course. I'm 58 and I don't want to spend too much time in squidville. It's going to be financially tough but its a priority on my bucket list. I'm sure I will want to do at least a day course every year thereafter but now I want the immersion. It's a no brainier right?

This a good topic to ponder I think, and really there is no right/wrong answer. I've done both 2-day and 1-day formats, and also did two 1-days back-to-back (a cheaper version of a 2-day). My first experience was a 2-day and honestly I can reflect now that it was awesome but very challenging mentally/physically since it was both my first time at school and also riding on a racetrack. I'm not sure that for me the 2-day was the best format for retention the first time around. The 1-day is much more relaxed overall and offers extra rest between sessions as well as time to reflect on the coaching. For track day regulars I suspect the 2-day is ok the first time. For newbies I now suspect maybe a 1-day (or two of them) would be a less hectic introduction to the track and CSS. Once you get to Level 3-4 I think it's easier to fit in a 2-day format because now you've had time to absorb most of the basics and can then use the extra track time of the 2-day to really immerse yourself and practice. I won't say I'm completely sure... just my random brainstorming this morning...

 

On a related note, it never ceases to amaze me how some track day vets are offended at the notion they have to begin CSS with Level 1. I think perhaps they equate it to being reverted to "beginner" status and therefore beneath them. I also note many can be positively swayed by the explanation on how it simply is a systematic approach to training and you can't skip levels because each level builds on the last (as Cobie well stated above).

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It's also not like on Level I you are told how to brake, ride slowly or whatever. It's working on fundamentals that the rest build upon. . . Hey Level IV is whatever you need to work on and frequently its you ending up working on a Level I skill. . .. So I don't think you can call it anything different per se to not have someone associate it as "beginner" - but unfortunately when you name/number things in some sort of sequential order, thats what it becomes. .

 

Maybe you change levels to Orange, Blue, Green, Red or whatever. That way you dont associate one before the other until you actually go. Dunno.

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Thanks for the feedback guys.

 

BVH's experience aside, I think we typically get a better result with the 2-day school as the first one.

 

For many the first day is a steep learning curve, usually around the 3rd session things start to gel. In most cases the lower ratio of students to coach, more track time, smaller classes (both and off track) of the 2-day camp is the winner. Either way, I would recommend doing 2 days the first time--single day schools or 2-day camps.

 

Best,

CF

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For many the first day is a steep learning curve, usually around the 3rd session things start to gel. In most cases the lower ratio of students to coach, more track time, smaller classes (both and off track) of the 2-day camp is the winner. Either way, I would recommend doing 2 days the first time--single day schools or 2-day camps.

That's a very good point I'd forgotten on the lower 2-day student to instructor ratio for a first timer and it is great to have a lot more time with the coach. For sure I agree doing two days the first time is a good choice. No matter which format, I say you can't lose either way :)

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I think some people like the single days because its actually "like" a track day but instructional (outside that some track operators are trying to do some half-ass instruction so that they can market or encourage more people to attend their track days). If you want a track day where its 20 minutes on, some class, and 20 minutes of tooling around your bike, chatting with others, hanging out - then the 1 days make more sense. If you're going because you want to go and learn, do, and ride as much as possible - then the 2 days with more sessions, more instruction, more comprehensive all day schedule makes a lot more sense. I think the 2 days are more like "camp" and the 1 days are more like a track day (albeit structured and instructional). Don't interpret that as CSS is anything remotely close to a regular "track day", but as a comparison to what the 'feeling' is. . .

 

The difference is also this - if you removed bikes from the equation and say proximity to the track. If you had to travel to a CSS class a few states away. Would you do the 2 day or 2 single days ? Basically removing the "single day equation", the "ride my own bike equation", etc. . And I think the answer is that you would want to go to get as many track sessions, and learning in as you could feasibly pack in a single day. And thats where the 2 days come into play. ..

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I think there can be a fine line between Immersion and Saturation and that really depends on the student, but IMO, given what I've read about Shakabusa's riding experience from a few post's on the forum's learning and being coached on his own bike would do him more good then on the S1000's

 

Tyler

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Cobie, Your opinion is going to weigh in heavily because of your position. BVH,T, and Anthem, Thanks for your valued input. I'm going to put this to rest for a while and the answer will become clear eventually. The considerations are these: Intensity...I tend to learn better at a slower pace, cost and being on my own bike. Hmm the answer is getting obvious already but I will give it rest just the same. Thanks to you all one more time.

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Let us know what you decide!

 

CF

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All,

Signed up for two single class days. Money and the slower learning curve were the deciding factors. One of my best friends is joining me. He will be renting a BMW. If only I could save enough to buy one of those before August 26-7!!! Thanks to everyone who helped me decide about the class. Is anyone signed up for it?

 

Does Keith attend all track days? Thanks again.

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Congrats on the decision Shaka, You and your friend will have a blast and should learn a lot. It would be cheaper renting a S1000 than saving up to buy one :D. You could consider it a 2 day test ride and not have to worry about putting all the extra's on it too, that includes gas and tires.

Please give us a ride update after you attend CSS,

 

Unfortunately Keith does not attend all of the schools.

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Keith is at most of the US schools, and Dylan is at most of them, too; I've never yet attended a school that didn't have at least one of them there.

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I just finished my two day camp on the 25th & 26th at Streets. My first time on the s1000rr and a racetrack. By no means was I fast, I enjoyed the idea that I had to work on each step and complete it and then get the feed back from my coach and move on to the next lesson. I had the time of my life! I didn't think I could lean at all and pictures are worth a thousand words and I wouldn't believe anyone until I actually saw the pictures. This school did wonders for me and helped me understand the whole aspect of the ride verses just doing the actions. I'm looking forward to getting my own s1000rr and looking forward to doing level III at Barber in June. I am glad that I was consistent and smooth and with that will come the speed or so I'm told. I'll again believe that when I see it. I am just concerned with the safety of it all and knowing that I'll be a better rider. I am still on CLOUD 9 and damn glad I went. I was very nervous at the beginning and faced it and moved on. I'm so very glad I did. The instructors are just awesome. You couldn't ask for a better environment for learning how to control yourself and a facinating machine. Thank you for my opportunity and yep I'm hooked and can't wait to come back for more learning.

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I'm thinking its going to be near impossible to learn in the 1-4 courses what I could learn in no time flat in the two day course. I'm 58 and I don't want to spend too much time in squidville. It's going to be financially tough but its a priority on my bucket list. I'm sure I will want to do at least a day course every year thereafter but now I want the immersion. It's a no brainier right?

This a good topic to ponder I think, and really there is no right/wrong answer. I've done both 2-day and 1-day formats, and also did two 1-days back-to-back (a cheaper version of a 2-day). My first experience was a 2-day and honestly I can reflect now that it was awesome but very challenging mentally/physically since it was both my first time at school and also riding on a racetrack. I'm not sure that for me the 2-day was the best format for retention the first time around. The 1-day is much more relaxed overall and offers extra rest between sessions as well as time to reflect on the coaching. For track day regulars I suspect the 2-day is ok the first time. For newbies I now suspect maybe a 1-day (or two of them) would be a less hectic introduction to the track and CSS. Once you get to Level 3-4 I think it's easier to fit in a 2-day format because now you've had time to absorb most of the basics and can then use the extra track time of the 2-day to really immerse yourself and practice. I won't say I'm completely sure... just my random brainstorming this morning...

 

On a related note, it never ceases to amaze me how some track day vets are offended at the notion they have to begin CSS with Level 1. I think perhaps they equate it to being reverted to "beginner" status and therefore beneath them. I also note many can be positively swayed by the explanation on how it simply is a systematic approach to training and you can't skip levels because each level builds on the last (as Cobie well stated above).

 

I'm glad to hear that as I was thinking much the same thing. I'm taking a 1 day level 1 class at Thunderbolt in NJ this August. The idea being that there's so much info I'll need time to absorb it all and adjust. My riding for what I've learned. I've watched TotW 2 on YouTube at least 3 times since getting my new bike, try to implement what I've learned, and critique myself against the video each time I come home. Had previously ridden a Honda Fury, but recently traded in for a BMW K1300s and I'm trying to learn to ride the bike properly.

 

It's is only my second bike, had the Fury for 3 1/2 years after taking the NJMSF course. Rode that bike over its mechanical limits more than once and paid the price twice. Don't want to do that again.

 

I'm hoping to take level 2 and 3 on separate occasions next year, hoping to build my skills. I'm no Spring Chicken either (going on 51) but I'm wiling to take my time and do this right. Once can't fly into flying, to paraphrase Nietzsche... ;-)

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I've almost exclusively done the two days. I've recently did the one day (tried to do 2 x one days back to back) and have to tell you - the two day camp is so much better, more attentive and more informative that I will pretty much go out of my way to stay with the two days. I noticed some people saying the single days are "less rushed' and I think that that concept is being mis-applied. You might be less rushed in that you get to sit around for 20 extra minutes every rotation, but the on track coaching is shorter, the off track coaching is also shorter and you just get less time.

 

To give an example - on a single day session, you might get the coach to notice you from behind and take you around for 1/2 a lap, maybe a full if you're lucky. Off track - you split time with 3 people and its a few minutes. On two day camps, due to 2 : 1 ratio, he might catch up with you twice in a session and/or lead you around for quite a bit depending upon length of track. That third person is huge because he has to debrief a third (cutting into his on-track time) and on-track coach a third person (cutting your on-track coaching again by 50%). That's the definition of being "rushed". Besides, I'd rather be out there after 20-25 minutes to try what I've just been corrected on rather than waiting close to an hour before getting out there again.

 

So, if your budget can take the hit - the 2 day camp is a much better option. It's not just measured as 5 on-track sessions vs 7 (because based on the amount of coach time, the 5 on-track single days might equate to only 3 on the 2 day camps). You're paying to be there for the coaching not the number of track sessions. And the more time spent with the coach on and off the track is what you're looking for.

 

Ironically I would reverse what people think - if you're a regular track day rider and are stuck/ingrained in the 3 rotation or 4 rotation setup, then go for the single days. If you're not stuck in that mental way - or a novice, seriously consider the 2 day as the better way to train.

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Thanks for all the different takes on this question guys. Now that I know what I'm doing its time to focus in on making the best use of my prep time between now and Aug 26-7...two single days. Ive watched twotw2 so many times its innumerable and have read the book a lot as well. Also went through Soft Science once plus referencing. I think I'll start going over them again and spend even more time on Keith's more current articles. I'm also trying to familiarize myself with the track in NJ as that is extremely important too.

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I had a medical issue which is currently under review and its looking like I'm going to make my camp. Hyabusa.org is considering whether to send our regional group on the 27th. I'm rightfully excited as Cobie has been helping me make this possible. The CSS Office has been exceptionally helpful.

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So, finally, after all this time I've come to another plan. I will do a one day, let it sink in, practice what I've learned for a couple of months and then do another single day at the end of the summer. 2014...here we go!

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Hi,

 

I am new to this site. I am thinking of taking the Level 1 class in March 2015. I am originally from India and used to ride a 180cc single cylinder motorcycle to commute for four years. I don't have any riding experience in US. I got my motorcycle license last year. I am not a beginner. But I don't have any experience with motorcycles as powerful as the S1000RR. Is it a bad idea to enroll in the Level 1 class?

 

Thanks
Anil

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I signed up for 2 days at the Ridge in Washington this summer and hope to have lots of homework afterwards. I would like some prep work if it's available, drills, information on theory and skill development, lots of reading, etc. to help me get the most out of the weekend. Sources?

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Rusty;

The Twist of the Wrist books and video. They are the text books of the School and most of us use them as reference books before and after attending the School. You can buy them at the School's Web site.

Rainman

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The Twist of the Wrist II DVD (the recent one) is really great - it has a bit of a story to make it entertaining but what I really like are all the great visual examples that illustrate the concepts. I love reading the books and they are great to have (they are available as eBooks now, too, BTW) but I got some extra understanding from seeing video examples of some of the techniques, especially the ones that compare doing it right versus doing it wrong, and the CG illustration of how countersteering actually works.

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The Twist of the Wrist II DVD (the recent one) is really great - it has a bit of a story to make it entertaining but what I really like are all the great visual examples that illustrate the concepts. I love reading the books and they are great to have (they are available as eBooks now, too, BTW) but I got some extra understanding from seeing video examples of some of the techniques, especially the ones that compare doing it right versus doing it wrong, and the CG illustration of how countersteering actually works.

The Recent One ????

Has it been updated?

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