YellowDuck

Drill For Learning To Trust The Tires?

107 posts in this topic

I have also added a slipper clutch in the mean time. There are three corners at TMP where I am wasting brain power and time letting the clutch out slowly on downshifts in order to control the rear wheel (remember, 1000-cc V-twin). Hopefully the slipper helps relieve me of that inconvenience. On the other hand, the new clutch is totally untested (track-only bike!), so maybe it will not work at all and ruin my day! My mechanical skills are somewhat mediocre, although so far they haven't got me into any real trouble.

I installed a Sigma slipper in the R6 up to 2011 season, and I have never opened a motorcycle engine (OK, only helped my friend open his, but his was fried) before taking the clutch apart. All I did was to follow the instructions and it worked perfectly.

YMMV.

 

Good luck with the trackday.

 

Kai

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Hopefully the slipper helps relieve me of that inconvenience.

 

Yellow;

 

Treat your new slipper clutch like new tires or a cold track; make sure you get a good "feel" for how it functions before you try to load it up. Despite the design, you can still get rear wheel hop with a slipper. DAMHIK.

 

Rain

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Well, the slipper worked perfectly, and it only took me a few sessions to get used to how it felt. It takes a bit of faith at first to select your gear for the corner at the *beginning* of the braking zone, then just dump the clutch with no consequences....but it sure is a great improvement once you learn how to use it! It really is not a subtle difference at all.

 

Unfortunately I was not able to use this nice mod to help me lower my lap times. It was very cool and windy with no direct sun all day, so the track was pretty slick and I could never get enough heat into my tires no matter what I did with the pressures. I had plenty of slides at both ends during the morning, which really sapped my confidence. It got a little better in the afternoon so that I found the courage to up my pace a bit, but I ended the day still almost 2 s off my previous best. I decided to call it a victory just for bringing it home in one piece, and to put a set of tire warmers on my Christmas list.

 

 

 

 

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Technique-wise, when possible if you can do the downshift later in the sequence (harderst braking first, scrub off some speed) less wear and tear on the bike, you and, in reality one can still over-rev an engine even with a slipper.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Technique-wise, when possible if you can do the downshift later in the sequence (harderst braking first, scrub off some speed) less wear and tear on the bike, you and, in reality one can still over-rev an engine even with a slipper.

 

 

Oh yes, I am at least starting the braking and getting the initial weight transfer done before downshifting, for sure. I probably was exaggerating a bit too much when I said the beginning of the braking zone. But still, I am done with the shifting WAY before it is time to position myself for turn in, which definitely was not the case when I had to be careful letting the clutch out to control the rear wheel.

 

I am actually not sure that I *could* over rev the engine with my slipper, at least the way it is set up currently . Once it releases the bike feels like it is practically freewheeling, and the revs drop way down. It is only when it starts to grab again that the revs come up, and they never come up very high. Granted, there is never a place at this track where I downshift more than two gears at once, so I never tested a very extreme mismatch of wheel and motor speeds.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Hi Guys,

 

New to here, keep hearing about TOTWII and read it here, can you tell me what it is cause it sounds interesting.

 

Cheers, Cam.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

New to here, keep hearing about TOTWII and read it here, can you tell me what it is cause it sounds interesting.

 

The acronym TOTWII stands for "Twist Of The Wrist II", Keith Code's second book in the Twist of the Wrist series, available in a number of different formats Here. It's definitely a must read for anyone who wants to learn how to properly turn a motorcycle at any pace, and I think just about everyone on these forums would recommend it with at least 2 thumbs up.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Hi Yellowduck,

 

In my first visit to CSS I found myself at the same "wall". I mentioned it to my coach and his response was fantastic, "you see others doing it right, so we can set that aside as an issue....now what are you using for a mid-corner reference point in 4 because you look tentative there".

 

In other words, focus on the fundamentals, if you are focused on that, you won't be focused on any fear of the tires. I reckon if you are applying good fundamental cornering techniques your tires are going to be just fine.

 

Good luck.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

YellowDuck congratulations on your progress. I just finished reading this entire thread and it has been fun to see how you have progressed from your initial fear of leaning to far to now having to worry about dragging your knee.

 

One of the recurring issues that comes up in many of the responses posted is when to start turning on the throttle. I can tell you that the correct answer is as early as possible. Remember the primary reason for turning on the throttle is not to accelerate, but to counter act the loading up of the front end once the bike starts turning and stabilize the suspension in the middle of it's travel where it will work the best.

 

Here is an example of what I mean. Once in a race on a very small bike, I was convinced I could pass the bike in front of me if I could just get the throttle openned a tiny bit earlier on a specific corner. Time and time again as I approached the corner I would momentarily close the throttle to set my speed, turn to set my lean angle and open the throttle to stabilize the bike through the corner. As the bike continued to feel firmly planted with no tendency for the tires to slide, I set the speed slightly higher each lap and eventually convinced myself that, while I knew I could carry more speed through the corner, the only way I was going to be able to do it was to hold the throttle wide open on my entry. Unfortunately by holding the throttle wide open as I entered the turn instead of momentarily closing it and then opening it after setting my lean, the result was less than satisfactory. I reached my lean angle and was happy with the speed, but with the throttle already all the way open I had no power left to overcome the decelerative forces that naturally shifted more weight to the front end and unloaded the rear end ever so slightly. As soon as I hit the point, the suspension now was out of the middle of it's optimum functioning range and no longer able to work efficiently to maintain traction, and down I went in a low side. Input from racers behind me indicated that I hadn't really been going any faster through the corner that time, and so should have had the same ammount of traction as on all the previous laps, so the loos of traction was caused by me mismanaging the throttle I taking the suspension out of play.

 

I would also like to reiterate the advice I have seen others give you about where to spend you money. It's always fun to add new parts to your go-fast machine that you think will help, but it is definately worth spending the money for some good on track coaching. You can learn how to ride any motorcycle, no matter how poorly equiped or set up, faster with good technique.

 

I spent ove 20 years dabbling in club racing without a lot of improvement. Then one day, a few years ago, it was like a light bulb blinked on over my head and I figured out how to ride. I now get a lot more out of my bike, my tires, everything. The only thing I can think of that accounts for the difference is that I attended a CSS course again (I had taken one in 1987 but they have made substantial changes to the program since then).

 

Your photos remind me a lot of me, and I will attach a couple before and after shots to this post.

Both ar on the same bike on similar corners, one prior to taking the CSS course, and one after. You will see the difference.

post-795-0-17477000-1357369820_thumb.jpg

post-795-0-91456600-1357369832_thumb.jpg

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

...... How do I stop the alarm bells from going off when I reach that higher lean angle? How do I convince myself that I can carry 45 degrees of lean or more around a slow corner and not lowside? What is a good method to build up my confidence?

 

 

This is like dancing, you have to flow, feel and enjoy.

I can't see any joy in the face expression of those pictures.

 

I totally agree with you! :)

I had a grat experience with CSS..they taught me to dance.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

I need to re-evaluate and refine some of my dancing skills.

I am planning for a May lesson or 3.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

I knew I could carry more speed through the corner, the only way I was going to be able to do it was to hold the throttle wide open on my entry. Unfortunately by holding the throttle wide open as I entered the turn instead of momentarily closing it and then opening it after setting my lean, the result was less than satisfactory. I reached my lean angle and was happy with the speed, but with the throttle already all the way open I had no power left to overcome the decelerative forces that naturally shifted more weight to the front end and unloaded the rear end ever so slightly. As soon as I hit the point, the suspension now was out of the middle of it's optimum functioning range and no longer able to work efficiently to maintain traction, and down I went in a low side. Input from racers behind me indicated that I hadn't really been going any faster through the corner that time, and so should have had the same ammount of traction as on all the previous laps, so the loos of traction was caused by me mismanaging the throttle I taking the suspension out of play.

 

Now, I'm no expert but unless you were in a gear to low and had run out of revs entirely, that sounds more like adding throttle and lean simultaneously to me?

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

YellowDuck congratulations on your progress. I just finished reading this entire thread and it has been fun to see how you have progressed from your initial fear of leaning to far to now having to worry about dragging your knee.

 

 

 

Thanks for this great post - it was a nice read for me and useful too.

 

Based on some conversations with others who are experienced with the Pirelli red stripes, I was able to deduce that my tires were likely pretty much cooked by my final track day last fall - that probably was more to blame for the spooky slides that kept me from making further progress. I have put a set of Q2s on for this coming season so we'll see how those are. I was thinking of going to DOTs and warmers but got convinced that that is not necessary at my current pace.

 

Unfortunately I still have not been able to cure my tendency to throw money at the bike - just installed 4-pot brembo calipers and Speigler lines, and the XRAC pads are on their way. I know that none of it is necessary, but I do enjoy tinkering with the bike and it keeps me entertained over the long Canadian winter.

 

I just about had a private coach lined up at the end of last season, so I'll see if I can make that happen this year.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Update:

 

I am now 6 trackdays into the 2013 season, and have made a pile of progress. My best times last year at Toronto Motorsports Park were in the 1:29 range. This season I went to 1:27.0 by the second outing, and last Monday managed quite a few 1:24s, with 1:24.4 being my best.

 

"Trusting the tires" is no longer an issue. On these Q2s I am knee down all over the place and am knocking on the door of red group pace. Here's video from Monday.

 

[media]

[/media]

 

I don't think I am nearly as crossed up as it appears in the video. My head is generally well to the inside but the camera angle makes it look otherwise. I had professional coaching a few weeks back and my instructor said body position was fine. Instead, he had me working on not throwing my body weight around so harshly, following racier lines, and braking later into the faster corners.

 

I may go to warmers next season to avoid the need to waste laps on warming up the tires every session, but I am thinking that I am still a few seconds away from needing slicks or DOT race tires.

 

Thanks to everyone who offered me the help I needed to get this far! I am a completely different rider from the one who started this thread.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Update:

 

I am now 6 trackdays into the 2013 season, and have made a pile of progress. My best times last year at Toronto Motorsports Park were in the 1:29 range. This season I went to 1:27.0 by the second outing, and last Monday managed quite a few 1:24s, with 1:24.4 being my best.

 

"Trusting the tires" is no longer an issue. On these Q2s I am knee down all over the place and am knocking on the door of red group pace. Here's video from Monday.

 

[media]

[/media]

 

I don't think I am nearly as crossed up as it appears in the video. My head is generally well to the inside but the camera angle makes it look otherwise. I had professional coaching a few weeks back and my instructor said body position was fine. Instead, he had me working on not throwing my body weight around so harshly, following racier lines, and braking later into the faster corners.

 

I may go to warmers next season to avoid the need to waste laps on warming up the tires every session, but I am thinking that I am still a few seconds away from needing slicks or DOT race tires.

 

Thanks to everyone who offered me the help I needed to get this far! I am a completely different rider from the one who started this thread.

 

Q3's reportly can shave 0.4s off compared to Q2's ...*hint hint XD

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Yahoo! That is fantastic progress and a great post to read.

 

When you go to warmers is the time to change tires - I don't think the Q2s like warmers very much - mine seemed like they overheated when I tried using warmers with them. When/if you go to a race tires you will NEED the warmers - race tires are harder to warm up and harder to ride when cold - without warmers they can feel terrible at first, which can affect your confidence which makes you slow down and makes them even HARDER to warm up. So if you do switch tires, make sure you have warmers.

 

From what I hear of the Q3s, they have amazing grip and might work as a good step between the Q2s and the race tires and may work well without warmers.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Thanks ktk and hotfoot for the comments - helpful advice. At my current pace I am still not really pushing the tires that much - I basically never get any slides at either end. I am pretty sure I could get under 1:20 on these wonderful street tires. However, I am considering doing a race weekend or two next season if I feel ready (and wealthy enough), so at that point I would need to go to warmers and slicks for sure. Perhaps the Q3s might serve as a good intermediate step as you suggest, and then I can swap them out for the slicks (with warmers) for the Friday practice at my first race.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Thanks ktk and hotfoot for the comments - helpful advice. At my current pace I am still not really pushing the tires that much - I basically never get any slides at either end. I am pretty sure I could get under 1:20 on these wonderful street tires. However, I am considering doing a race weekend or two next season if I feel ready (and wealthy enough), so at that point I would need to go to warmers and slicks for sure. Perhaps the Q3s might serve as a good intermediate step as you suggest, and then I can swap them out for the slicks (with warmers) for the Friday practice at my first race.

 

Sounds like a good plan! FYI, most race tires have stiff carcass and if you like a compliant feel you might have to soften your suspension somewhat to compensate for the stiffer tire. I notice a big difference between the Q2 and the Dunlop slicks. Just letting you know in case you want to give yourself more practice time or line up a suspension person to help you out. Make sure to run at least one or two sessions with your original settings first, to see how it feels and to give the tires and suspension a chance to warm up fully.

 

At my first race I hired a knowledgeable mechanic with race experience to be there to help - it made a huge difference in helping me know where to be and when, to help me deal with stands and warmers and tech inspection, and handle any bike issues that arose. Or you can buddy up with someone already racing, so you have someone that can answer questions and help you out.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Your looking nice there YD. Great improvement.

Now, when are you flying south and coming to school?

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Not to be critical or naive (I only started riding 3 months ago and only have 2 moto track days under my belt), but why are you dragging the clutch on downshifts? I see you downshifting under braking and your right hand is doing nothing with the throttle. I know that every once in a while I will under-blip the throttle and get a rear tire hop or slide, but I wouldn't think that I'd trade throttle blipping for dragging my clutch up. I understand most of our clutch's are wet, but is that enough for them not to glaze?

 

 

BTW, great thread! I am exactly in the same boat with cornering and my track pics look similar to the first ones you posted. Hopefully I improve as quickly as you did :)

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

It's a slipper clutch. So rev matching is not as critical which should eliminate some or all rear wheel hop

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Not senior enough to give any serious advice, but hope this helps...

 

When I first got my K, I threw on my hiking boots and headed out to the local Sears parking lot to try things out. Kept going through the same circuit over & over, leaning in more each time & increasing speed a bit. Each time thinking "oh, ... Any second the tires will go..." And each time they didn't. It came down to not really knowing just how much lean angle the tire can handle. I mean really knowing how far they can go as a real number & squaring that with my own perceptions of where I was.

 

Long story short...

 

After several rounds, I cut in quick and leaned over as far as my cojones would let me. Felt my left foot dragging a bit & stopped leaning there. After finishing that circuit & going home, I examined my boot. These were High Tech brand hiking boots with a good inch+ of sole on them. In that couple of fleeting seconds I had ground off most of the sole from my last 3 toes, and had about 1mm left before I'd drag meat. Needless to say, I bought boots with toe sliders the next day!

 

Examining the tire, I found I had started 'decapitating the elephant' (Melzter M3 Sportec) on either side & had maybe 3mm to go before running over the edge. I've been using the "toe test" ever since. Gives me positive feedback that I'm about as far as I dare go.

 

Last note... The other day it was some 95 degrees & after a 35 mile ride on highways home from work I checked my tires by placing my booted foot on it & pressing. The friggin boot stuck to the tire like Velcro! Couldn't believe it. Have since started trusting them more and more.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

mazur - just a comment on the clutch plates glazing. When I went for my very first test to get the learners license the instructors told us not to worry about the clutch, just to drag it and slip it as much as we need, that we wouldn't hurt it. That's how I've been riding every single bike I've ever ridden since. And no clutch problems at all. Basically motorbikes are designed for that, they have something in the region of 3-4x as many clutch plates as a car for example. ;)

So don't sweat it, drag the clutch as you needed.

 

EricG, glad to hear you've been trusting your tyres more and more. Faith works, more faith works better. :D:P

But I was a bit scared to read about your "toe test"! :o

A couple of questions for you - do you think that method is an accurate, consistent gauge over a wide range of conditions? Could the attention spent on your toe test be better used elsewhere, perhaps directed towards an aspect of the tyres operation?

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

I always used my toes and the good thing is that it, for me at least, doesn't demand a cent of attention. Once a toe hit down you notice how hard and how quickly pressure increase, but it should be no different than using the knee as a guide. If I have 10 bucks at my disposal of attention, I feel the toe barely use a cent. The only downside is the cost in shoe repair since virtually every toe slider is places wrong for me since I do not tilt my foot on the peg. The exception is the IXS Victory with aluminium slider that goes an inch in under the sole. ixs-z6051-003.jpg

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

It's a slipper clutch. So rev matching is not as critical which should eliminate some or all rear wheel hop

 

Exactly. Slipper clutch, dry. Apparently not all slippers are created equal, but with mine I find I can select my gear early in the braking zone and pretty much just dump the clutch with no ill effects. This has worked well in racing situations this season as well. So, I can't see any advantage in throttle blipping - just makes it that much harder to modulate the brakes effectively. I get most of my passing done on the brakes so it seems to work fine, at least at my current level of expertise (novice club racer).

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Create an account or sign in to comment

You need to be a member in order to leave a comment

Create an account

Sign up for a new account in our community. It's easy!


Register a new account

Sign in

Already have an account? Sign in here.


Sign In Now