faffi Posted September 26, 2013 Report Share Posted September 26, 2013 Anybody follow MotoGP racing? Sure hope so This season we have seen DePuniet go from being about as fast as Espargaro to being way, way slower. I'd say dramatically slower. Would you think it stems from Espargaro having evolved drastically as a rider, or DePuniet having lost his motivation, or that the bike have been developed in a direction that suits the Spaniard while being all wrong for the Frenchman? The difference in performance from the two riders also begs the question; how fast is the Suzuki really? Since DePuniet goes faster on the Suzuki than his CRT Aprilia, could Espargaro do the same? Would that mean that the Suzuki is already fast enough to challenge for front row starts with the right rider? I'd love to hear youz people's take on this - and other GP racing stuff you've observed. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Stroker Posted September 26, 2013 Report Share Posted September 26, 2013 Why have Kawasaki never really won anything? They do have fast bikes... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ktk_ace Posted September 26, 2013 Report Share Posted September 26, 2013 the more money = the faster the bike/biker will go... motoGP is black tech to most riders and imho... i just watch for inspiriation and hijinks For basic fundamentals , i'd still consult the cornering bible ... because its proven for me and my 2 other friends Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
tmckeen Posted September 27, 2013 Report Share Posted September 27, 2013 Why have Kawasaki never really won anything? They do have fast bikes... They came very close to winning WSBK last year, are currently leading the rider championship , and a very close second in the manufacturers championship, with 7 Race wins this year Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
faffi Posted September 27, 2013 Author Report Share Posted September 27, 2013 Also won the WSS title last year, didn't they? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
faffi Posted September 27, 2013 Author Report Share Posted September 27, 2013 From today's first practice session. They are worlds apart. 12. Aleix Espargaro ESP Power Electronics Aspar (ART CRT) 1m 51.822s 19. Randy De Puniet FRA Power Electronics Aspar (ART CRT) 1m 54.092s Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Stroker Posted September 27, 2013 Report Share Posted September 27, 2013 But in the past two stroke era, they had some excellent bikes but never really won no? I have seen races where they jumped off the line but lost ground to Yamahas and Suzukis for no apparent reason Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
faffi Posted September 27, 2013 Author Report Share Posted September 27, 2013 Kawasaki won a great number of 250 and 350 GP titles in the 70s and 80s. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Stroker Posted September 28, 2013 Report Share Posted September 28, 2013 No 500 titles? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
faffi Posted September 28, 2013 Author Report Share Posted September 28, 2013 Nope. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Stroker Posted September 28, 2013 Report Share Posted September 28, 2013 Honda won a great many titles with the NSR's right? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
tmckeen Posted September 28, 2013 Report Share Posted September 28, 2013 Currently MV Agusta has the record with 18 titles, followed by Yamaha and Honda with 16 and 15 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ktk_ace Posted September 28, 2013 Report Share Posted September 28, 2013 IMHO a brand's pedigree at motogp/racing only factors a SMALL PART of my buying decision... trickle down tech (unit pro link/TCS/cross crank engine etc) , ease of maintanance + cost also are as important. the S1000RR is a superior school bike becuase of the electronic safety nets + overall ability to go real fast with a skilled rider These factors change every second so i just... keep myself updated Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Stroker Posted September 29, 2013 Report Share Posted September 29, 2013 Currently MV Agusta has the record with 18 titles, followed by Yamaha and Honda with 16 and 15 Yes they had a great run earlier on before the Japs started dominating. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jasonzilla Posted September 29, 2013 Report Share Posted September 29, 2013 I was thinking RDP was maybe focused more on the Suzuki. Espargaro picked it up a little, but RDP has clearly lost something. Age? I never would have thought Rossi wouldn't be able to keep pace with the "aliens" anymore at 33. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Stroker Posted September 30, 2013 Report Share Posted September 30, 2013 If you saw Rossi these days, you would never believe he had won so many times. Marquez makes them all look dated now. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
tmckeen Posted October 1, 2013 Report Share Posted October 1, 2013 If you saw Rossi these days, you would never believe he had won so many times. Marquez makes them all look dated now. I think thats a little unfair of a observation, If Marquez tried to ride a 500 the way he does, I'd bet money he wouldn't make it through a entire season. Rossi won his titles at the transition from 500's to 4 strokes and before the onset of the major electronic revolution so to speak. As the technology evolves, so to does the technique required to exact the maximum from the machine. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Stroker Posted October 1, 2013 Report Share Posted October 1, 2013 It has become easier to go fast.Better tires, suspension, TC and what not.Remember Doohan and other guys moved about a lot on 500's but still managed to win. I saw the Le Mans race.He was running third but crashed.He seems to put in fast laps and all but never does manage to get ahead of Jorge. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
faffi Posted October 1, 2013 Author Report Share Posted October 1, 2013 I don't think the bikes are easier to win on than before, probably harder. These days, you need to be inch perfect all lap, every lap. Back in the days, you could just grab a handful of throttle if you needed to go faster and with some luck you didn't get spat off and you could gain time. Still, you had to have something in reserve over race distance, something not really possible today. Rossi struggle for several reasons. First, he doesn't want to fall off and that idea alone probably cost him 3/10 per lap. Then his head was likely done in by the Ducati, as he continue to struggle with the front end also on the Yamaha. One must also remember that the bike is made for Jorge, and he doesn't ride the same way as Rossi. They do not use nearly the same geometry, but also the Yamaha doesn't really suit the way Rossi rides like it used to. We must also remember that Rossi is aging and that the way he learned to ride motorcycles isn't of much use today - and learning old dogs new tricks isn't always easy. Finally, the competition is probably at the highest level it's been since the Lawson/Rainey/Schwantz/Garner era, making life even harder for the ageing star. Still, he does know how to circulate and we saw when things are right, like in Qatar and Assen, that he can still do some magic. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Kevin Kane Posted October 1, 2013 Report Share Posted October 1, 2013 Eirik; I agree with your summary. I remember reading that one of the reasons Casey Stoner was so successful, even on the Ducati was he inherently trusted the electronic enhancements the bikes offered; Rossi, a more instinctual rider didn't adapt/accept them the same way. My personal recollection is that Lorenzo got pitched off the high side somewhat frequently when he first came up but now not that often; certainly he has gotten better but electronics have played some role in his successes. The racing has been incredible this year. Rain Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Stroker Posted October 1, 2013 Report Share Posted October 1, 2013 Good points Eirik. What then about Colin Edwards, who has been around for a bit? I think i remember Khenny Roberts saying even average riders can win with electronics ( hinting Colin was one such rider ). Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
faffi Posted October 1, 2013 Author Report Share Posted October 1, 2013 WARNING: I'm just an arm chair expert, so you should not take my opinions as gospel. Now, I do not think that bikes that are easier to ride make it easier to win because the bike is also easier to ride for the best riders. The best riders will always find some sort of advantage, be that in consistency or by pushing the envelope just that little bit further. Finding that edge is harder the easier the bike is to ride because more riders can get close to the limit, but still only a very few can consistently ride on the very limit. So while Edwards have been able to prolong his career with electronics due to fewer crashes, and can ride faster because of the electronic help, he can only take advantage of the extra performance if the other riders doesn't have them. In addition, the electronic package plus engine power Edwards now have at his disposal are quite a step below that of the factory bikes. What you have now is a good rider with a good bike trying to match great riders with great bikes. That will not bring success. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Stroker Posted October 2, 2013 Report Share Posted October 2, 2013 What about his experience and knowledge of the tracks? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
faffi Posted October 2, 2013 Author Report Share Posted October 2, 2013 Experience can be detrimental now that things have changed so drastcally. Edwards learned to ride on two-strokes and Superbikes without a hint of electronics save for the ignition, and with chassis, brakes and tyres way below current standards. So what he learned to do as a youngester and what became second nature for him isn't of much use today. Track knowledge doesn't seem to be very important. You can look at the last WSBK race at Laguna Seca, which wasn't dominated by the riders with previous knowledge. And Marquez won the MotorGP race with no previous knowledge. Spencer, for instance, could jump off the plane, head directly to a new (to him) track and set a new lap record on his third circulation. The best of the best simply are so far beyond Plain Jane and Average Joe that it isn't funny. For us mere mortals Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Stroker Posted October 2, 2013 Report Share Posted October 2, 2013 And everyone says Rossi struggles with new tracks... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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