Lnewqban

Can Quick Turn Be Overdone?

95 posts in this topic

Reading this article from Keith Code, I wondered what is the physical limit for this technique?

 

http://forums.superbikeschool.com/index.php?showtopic=109

 

I would also like learning any subtle tips from the couches. :)

For example:

 

1) It is done while still braking or completely off the brakes?

2) More force or more speed while steering, or both?

3) Body position and sight direction before, during and after?

4) How to use it in a chicane?

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I remember asking this question and the answer was that it takes a darned great amount of force to lose the front while doing a quick turn....so almost never in the dry.

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Reading this article from Keith Code, I wondered what is the physical limit for this technique?

 

http://forums.superbikeschool.com/index.php?showtopic=109

 

I would also like learning any subtle tips from the couches. :)

For example:

 

1) It is done while still braking or completely off the brakes?

2) More force or more speed while steering, or both?

3) Body position and sight direction before, during and after?

4) How to use it in a chicane?

 

I am not a coach obviously, but my take on it is that no, it can not be overdone - at least by me. Theoretically, the physical limit comes when you break the *rear* tire loose.

 

1) COMPLETELY off the brakes. Quick turning while trail braking is a good way to crash, I bet. Choose one or the other, depending on the situation. My natural style is to normally trail brake, and I like how it keeps the chassis stable. But in situations where no brakes are required entering the corner then I like to turn it *really* hard.

 

2) It's the same thing. If you apply more force it happens more quickly, so more force = more speed.

 

3) I'm set up in terms of body position (at least my lower body) well before the steering input

 

4) Dunno. Would like to hear the coaches' reply to that one. Moving the body across the bike takes a lot more time than the quick steering action alone.

 

(Edit: sorry just clicked the link. I thought we were talking about track riding, not accident avoidance.)

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Interestingly enough I just got to do some quick turn on a slightly wet track and got some interesting information from my coach Chris. He sent me out to do the quick turn drill and it started raining and he was REALLY happy to see me when I got back to start finish. Honestly I have never been happier to see a rain shower even though I LOVE the wet.

 

There are two elements to the quick turn. One is the pressure used and the other is the duration. The more pressure you use the faster the bike turns. The duration of the pressure determines the lean angle. Both of these can be varied depending on conditions. Once you release pressure on the bar the lean angle is set.

 

Previously in the wet I completely stopped doing the quick turn because of my concerns of traction and the front tire. This CSS on the damp track I was able to utilize quick turn and it helped me out a LOT! I never had any issues with the front end and probably could have gotten away with a faster quick turn but did not want to try my luck with a brand new bike. I did notice that utilizing the quick turn I was able to use less lean angle and the steering was a lot more precise.

 

When I do the quick turn here are my parameters.

 

-Body already in position.

-Braking completed and off the brakes.

-Downshifting completed for the turn.

 

-In the wet. Reduce pressure, Less duration for less lean angle.

 

Hope this helps!

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im not sure if going up a hill counts or not > / \ (the type with a flat in the middle)

 

nearly wheelied up sideways when i QT to pass a slow motorist; ended up losing the front for 0.5 seconds, good thing im loose on the bars , bike tided itself upon landing.

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Reading this article from Keith Code, I wondered what is the physical limit for this technique?

 

http://forums.superbikeschool.com/index.php?showtopic=109

 

I would also like learning any subtle tips from the couches. :)

For example:

 

1) It is done while still braking or completely off the brakes?

2) More force or more speed while steering, or both?

3) Body position and sight direction before, during and after?

4) How to use it in a chicane?

1) In any given situation you have a certain amout of available traction. If you are on the brakes, you are using some of your a available traction for braking and that leaves less traction available for turning than you'd have if you were not braking. So, to maximize quick turn you'd want to be off the brakes; ideally, you'd be tapering off your braking and releasing at your turn point so that your suspension stays compressed throughout without extending between braking and the turn point.

2) To get the bike to turn quicker you have to push harder (more pressure) not faster.

3) Think this one through - can you be accurate with your quick turn if your body position is not set before your turn point? Could moving around during the steering action affect your steering? For vision: Can you accurately steer the bike if you aren't looking at where you want the bike to go?

4) How to use it in a chicane... let's see, I guess it would go like this: turn the bike quickly, then shortly after that turn it quickly the other direction. :)

 

I'm not quite sure what you are asking about how to use it in a chicane, can you be more specific? Certainly quick turn is extremely useful in a chicane, where a fast transition is critical.

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4) How to use it in a chicane... let's see, I guess it would go like this: turn the bike quickly, then shortly after that turn it quickly the other direction. :)

 

I'm not quite sure what you are asking about how to use it in a chicane, can you be more specific? Certainly quick turn is extremely useful in a chicane, where a fast transition is critical.

 

 

Yes, my question about the use of quick turn in a chicane is related to the sucesion of timing of body position changes and steering inputs.

 

Thank you!

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Ah. The most important thing it to be locked onto the bike solidly so that the quick turn steering input is firm and accurate. There are techniques taught in Level 3 that help with the body position transition and with anchoring on the bike during and after the transition.

 

Got an repeat-offender students up here that remember what they are?

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Hmmm. Repeat offender here. I'll give it a guess.

 

Are you referring to pivot steering?

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Hmmm. Repeat offender here. I'll give it a guess.

 

Are you referring to pivot steering?

Yep, that's a good one for locking on the bike for accurate and powerful steering.

 

What skill(s) could help with the actual transition of the body from one side to the other?

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Ah. The ones I have the most trouble with. Knee to knee and the hip flick. :)

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Yes, exactly. So Pivot Steering can get you locked in properly, Knee to Knee will help you STAY locked in throughout a transition, and Hip Flick makes the transition very quick so you can get it done before having to steer the bike. Of course there is much more to the story and it is all presented in Level 3 but the basic answer to Lnewqban's question is that you transition the body before you steer the bike in a chicane, if possible, and you should have the lower body locked-in so as to get the most powerful and accurate steering input you can.

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I need to work on those myself. There's ALWAYS room to improve. :)

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..........the basic answer to Lnewqban's question is that you transition the body before you steer the bike in a chicane, if possible, and you should have the lower body locked-in so as to get the most powerful and accurate steering input you can.

 

Thank you very much, Hotfoot :rolleyes:

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I imagine the physical limit is pretty darned high. On the other hand, what's the point of turning faster and faster if you:

 

A. Don't need to turn that quickly

B. Scare your passenger half to death (sorry, thought we were talking about street riding for a second), or

C. Turn so quickly that you can't set your lean angle properly and either bounce up and down or scare your own self silly and blow the rest of the corner.

 

Lately, I've been seeing how SLOWLY I can turn and find I'm more comfortable leaning slowly and therefore I can lean further (carry more speed?) into the corners. But maybe that's just me.

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I imagine the physical limit is pretty darned high. On the other hand, what's the point of turning faster and faster if you:

 

A. Don't need to turn that quickly

B. Scare your passenger half to death (sorry, thought we were talking about street riding for a second), or

C. Turn so quickly that you can't set your lean angle properly and either bounce up and down or scare your own self silly and blow the rest of the corner.

 

Lately, I've been seeing how SLOWLY I can turn and find I'm more comfortable leaning slowly and therefore I can lean further (carry more speed?) into the corners. But maybe that's just me.

Your devil's advocate points are well taken. However the quick turn technique is presented to the classes as "turn as quickly as possible for the demands of the situation".

 

A sloooooow turn in requires more lean angle and therefore is less safe.

 

I'm going to be honest and say that it seems you are trolling...

 

If your post is sincere, my apologies.

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.........On the other hand, what's the point of turning faster and faster?

 

From "A twist of the wrist II" / Chapter 12:

"You can determine any rider's basic skill level by how well he can change directions, steer his bike, flick it in, lean it, get it turned, bend it in, bend it over, crank it over, tilt it over, stuff it in, snap it in - call it what you will, there is a scale of rider ability and nowhere is it more obvious than in this action of riding." - Keith Code

 

This is the way I understand the technique:

 

Leaning in and out quickly makes a clean straight-curve-straight transition, keeping the max possible radius of turn (and the minimum lean angle through the turn).

 

Just like in a "U".

 

mcr.jpg

 

Doing it slowly, you enter and leave with a huge decreasing and increasing radius, just to need a smaller than necessary radius (bigger than necessary lean angle) by the middle of the turn for compensating.

 

Just like in a "V".

 

Entering a left turn (right to left in the schematic) using a lazy lean over, you can see that the radius is slowly getting smaller as the lean angle increases, just like in a decreasing radius turn.

 

In essence, by doing that your line is stretched respect to a more ideal and efficient line.

 

post-133-12602015437124_thumb.png

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I imagine the physical limit is pretty darned high. On the other hand, what's the point of turning faster and faster if you:

 

A. Don't need to turn that quickly

B. Scare your passenger half to death (sorry, thought we were talking about street riding for a second), or

C. Turn so quickly that you can't set your lean angle properly and either bounce up and down or scare your own self silly and blow the rest of the corner.

 

Lately, I've been seeing how SLOWLY I can turn and find I'm more comfortable leaning slowly and therefore I can lean further (carry more speed?) into the corners. But maybe that's just me.

 

Quick turn is about a lot more than just the speed in which you get the bike turned. As several people mentioned it gives you better ground clearance and uses less lean angle. I had a track day in the rain where I stopped doing the quick turn because I had some pretty major concerns on traction. I lucked out and it got a little wet for one of the sessions at the school when I happened to be practicing quick turn. I started out conservatively using the quick turn in the rain and really fell in love with the fact that I could use less lean angle to get the bike turned which is a major plus for the wet. While I never got up to a super fast snap into the turn the technique really helped a lot. I honestly can't wait for it to rain again on another one of my track days.

 

In one of the videos (I forget which one) there's a segment that discusses where the quick turn is appropriate and where it's a bit over the top. I remember them showing a fully decked out Harley quick turning in traffic at an intersection. On the track and even on the road it's a very useful technique but it does have places where it's appropriate and places it's not. When I'm on the street on one of my sport bikes I tend to use that time to "practice" things I learned at the school. I practice quick turn pretty frequently. Like other techniques it's a tool that has the right time and place.

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Not trolling, just engaging in a lively discussion. May I say that I have played with this technique a LOT. When I say a LOT, I mean off and on for months--literally hours and hours and hours of riding time just on this one issue.

 

What I HEAR is that entering a corner at 45 mph and turning "slowly," say 1 second from full upright to full lean, the tires hardly notice, I can hardly hear them working. Going around again, same corner, same entry speed, I "quick turn" the bike, say half a second from full upright to full lean, and the tires let out a terrified groan. Clearly the tires are working much harder when quick turning the bike. I can't believe I'm the only one who has noticed this. If you haven't heard the exact same thing, I suggest you go out and play in traffic some more. :-) (Any excuse for a ride, right?)

 

So, it's raining in the Smokey Mountains and traction is low, which technique do you want to use? One that requires very little from the tire, or one that pushes the demand for traction? Or, you are on the track, you enter a turn after a long straight, you are going to be putting 1.1 Gs of force on your tires, any more than that and you'll slide out. Do you want to approach that limit all at once, or do you want to ease up to it with a sense of control?

 

Yes, lean angle = G forces, but just as you load the front tire to get maximum braking, I believe you must load the front tire to get maximum turning.

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I'm not used to hearing a tire groan, but I often hear the change in RPM when the bike is leaned. Maybe you are hearing that...

 

One one hand you say the "tires are working much harder when quick turning the bike" and on the other you say: "I believe you must load the front tire to get maximum turning."

 

Don't get discouraged because Keith says in Twist 2:

Pg. 59 For steering, you want weight on the front to get that “bite and turn” action. From this perspective, you can get on the gas too early, before the bike has finished getting the extra turning advantage from the loaded front.

 

 

Pg. 59 Weight on the front end helps the bike “hook” into turns. Getting on the gas too early starts the bike on a constant radius arc before you get it pointed.

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Dylan, I have also heard what Crash is talking about. Depending on the tire (Dunlop BT003) and the track surface, an extremely hard quick turn can yield a sort of "tearing" sound from the front and even migrate to the rear with an aggressive throttle roll. I find it to be a good thing, imho it's the sound of good grip and any extra wear is chalked up to the cost of doing business. Without knowing what is actually happening to the tire... does it sound harder on the tire than a lazy turn? Yea, but that may be just my perception. You can hear a very similar sound on a mt. bike on rough pavement when most rider weight is over the front. I have never heard such things on the Pirellis no matter how hard I turn and on the same surfaces but I do run higher pressures in those.

 

Crash, could it be that our tires where just lower in air pressure during that time?

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Regarding the quick turn, let's consider a car: go into a turn in a car at a spirited pace and turn the wheel in very sloooowly. See what you get. You get the same thing on a motorcycle if you lean it in very slowly.

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Looking back at the original question of "Can quickturn be overdone"

 

The answer is of course yes, all tires have a limit of traction and that can always be exceeded, however that limit might not be low enough that you personally, or any human for that matter, can physically overcome.

 

In the rain tires have less traction so the scenario of steering the bike so quickly that the front tire loses traction becomes plausible, but is still dependant on the type of tire and compound and the physical strength of the rider, In the dry it becomes much less likely that you can physically overpower the traction of the front tire from the act of steering the bike alone, but clearly some mechanical pneumatic steering actuator that can steer the bike with say the force of a thousand elephants could.

 

Can it be overdone: yes

 

Can you overdo it: most of the time no, but in some situations possibly

 

 

Tyler

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Looking back at the original question of "Can quickturn be overdone"

 

The answer is of course yes, all tires have a limit of traction and that can always be exceeded, however that limit might not be low enough that you personally, or any human for that matter, can physically overcome.

...........

 

Thanks, Tyler!

 

Here is a new article from Keith on successive quick turns:

http://www.motorcyclistonline.com/features/columns/transitions_code_break/

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