Measuring Handlebar Force Input?

[faffi]

He said that you would have to hold the bike up once you shift your weight, you need to keep the bike from turning by pulling outwards on the bars and once you let go, the bike will turn. No need to push or pull, the bike would turn smoothly and easily.

 

He also said that by shifting your weight to the inside early - without putting force on the handlebars - you would avoid instability. Furthermore, he stressed that you always had your feet in the normal position when riding and shifting your weight and only after the braking had finished should you move the inside foot back on the toes.

 

During braking, he said to support your weight on the thigh, not grip the tank. This required sitting quite far forward. You should not put force on the bars during braking, the force should be absorbed by the inside of your thigh resting against the back of the tank.

[rikker]

i.e. full of BS?!

[faffi]

I would never say to a world champion that he is full of BS, but there is no doubt he will have to do some counter-steering. Perhaps the way he locks himself to the bike make it easy to produce the force required, so much that he doesn't notice it? I don't know, but I know I often drop the bike quickly on its side with hardly any effort, whereas at other times I pull and push like crazy without a lot of reaction. So obviously, there are ways to steer a bike with less effort (wish I could do that always, not just most of the time). Other than the actual steering issues, Corser makes perfect sense to me.

[Stroker]

Thanks Eirik , this was the video i think.There was another video about 10 mins long also, not sure if it was a repeat of this.

[rikker]

I know Corser is a world champion, almost a legend, or something like that.

but maybe he lacks theoretical understanding and/or didactics... that's why he talks so much "BS" (or, for a lighter/respectful therm, "weird things") for us indoctrinated by CSS.

[ktk_ace]

I know Corser is a world champion, almost a legend, or something like that.

but maybe he lacks theoretical understanding and/or didactics... that's why he talks so much "BS" (or, for a lighter/respectful therm, "weird things") for us indoctrinated by CSS.

 

maybe his bike is spec-ed differently imho (ie lower rebound damping but with 2mm lowered triple clamp for ex compared to stock)

the rebound damping topic mentioned by hotfoot had me thinking why some bikes steer differently with just a few suspension changes...

[rikker]

yeah, right.

IMO we are trying to find excuses to validade what he said because he means something within our sport.

if a "nobody" said the same thing, he/she would be bashed around here (like many did trying to defend body steering). but the ankles/footwork tips are quite good.

 

well, back to the topic, thanks for the tips; I'll try to push REAL HARD off brakes.

[ktk_ace]

yeah, right.

IMO we are trying to find excuses to validade what he said because he means something within our sport.

if a "nobody" said the same thing, he/she would be bashed around here (like many did trying to defend body steering). but the ankles/footwork tips are quite good.

 

well, back to the topic, thanks for the tips; I'll try to push REAL HARD off brakes.

 

Im not even a troy corser fan.

If you dont like discussing something which i find very meaningful (suspension and geometry) , i can always turn a blind eye towards your discussion.

 

btw what bashing?

 

You do know the lessons are pretty much just an everchanging and evolving school of tought and not etched into stone do you? or not.

[rikker]

indeed geometry affects handling, like my old daytona and its twitchy front end, which tends to be quite "nervous" while cornering.

 

but, again, Corser's cornering theorethical approach can be called as "weird" specially on this forum, but right now it's another discussion.

I apologize if I was a jerk... of course everything changes with time and technology and nothing is etched into stone (specially in this sport), but I tend to carve a couple teachings on my personal stone and keep trying to improve my riding before trying something completely different. That's why, maybe, I find Corser's tips a little bit eye-popping (on the negative side).

[YellowDuck]

He's not the first world champion to demonstrate with his words that he doesn't understand much about the physics of how how a bike actually steers. It's just proof that actually understanding how bikes work is not a prerequisite to becoming one of the best riders on the planet. Strange but true.

[Stroker]

Hehe....i remember Lorenzo once mentioned he doesn't fully understand how an engine works, but that he can " FEEL " what the bike is doing.Many other riders cite being able to feel what the bike is doing and explaining that to be a highly important skill.

[tmckeen]

If someone did set up a bike with some kind of steering force input data logging system, it would be quite interesting have riders who claim to not use counter steering take it for a spin and record just how much steering input they are actually using.

[ktk_ace]

indeed geometry affects handling, like my old daytona and its twitchy front end, which tends to be quite "nervous" while cornering.

 

but, again, Corser's cornering theorethical approach can be called as "weird" specially on this forum, but right now it's another discussion.

I apologize if I was a jerk... of course everything changes with time and technology and nothing is etched into stone (specially in this sport), but I tend to carve a couple teachings on my personal stone and keep trying to improve my riding before trying something completely different. That's why, maybe, I find Corser's tips a little bit eye-popping (on the negative side).

 

Apology accepted...

 

IMHO the CSBK's school , based on yet another of my guesstimate... might actually favor some specific type of bike setup . They used to have kawasaki's and now have S1000rr's . both have for a lack of a better term, the worse mass centralization in the class (pipe and swingarm mass +position ) but the best in electronics ,maximum engine output and suspension (BMW with their DDC , kawa with their BPF) .

 

the best pipe centralization now is the panigale / RC8R (pipe doesnt extend beyond the swingarm pivot point)

the best swingarm mass centralization/llowest cog now WAS the 2014 R1 (look at the 2014 RC213V and you will see why , its "upside down" )

 

Thou with a modern 21st century era sportbike... getting that type of setup might be as easy as changing a pair of tires , a few clicks here and there on the suspension and maybe playing with the front triple clamp for rake angle adjustments if you are a 150 pound rider...

 

I do agree that the CSBK school of thought has and still is serving me with the widest sweet spot range on the streets , thou its mainly geared for racing. but i do take tidbits that are not from the CSBK school of thouht here and there, try to add it to the mix and see if the results are better or worse , integrating the better ones and dumping the ones that dont work every now and then.

 

 

 

 

[Hotfoot]

If someone did set up a bike with some kind of steering force input data logging system, it would be quite interesting have riders who claim to not use counter steering take it for a spin and record just how much steering input they are actually using.

Wow, that's a really good point. It would also be interesting to see a graph of the characteristics of the pressure over time - for example, what does the riders pressure release look like, it is abrupt or does it taper off, and you could also look for a resisting force from the other hand - does the rider steer with one hand but fight it with the other.

[benhamf15]

All,

 

Although we certainly appreciate everyone's loyalty to the teachings of CSS, let's be careful about being too hard on Troy Corser. After all, he IS a World Champion. He has proven to be an amazing rider that very few will ever be able to match.

 

Although he talks about a lot of things all together that made his teachings a bit difficult to follow, he actually seems to be mostly in line with what CSS currently teaches in most areas (except maybe body steering). Keep in mind that TOTW 2 was written back in 1993 and encompassed the best technology that Keith had discovered at the time. But make no mistake that he hasn't quit discovering new riding technologies and you get the most up-to-date technology when you attend the school. For example, although TOTW 2 only talks about locking on to the tank with your knee, CSS doesn't teach there's only one way to lock on to the tank (not sure we ever did but I'm a new guy). We work with students to find a lock on position that works for THEM. It may be the knee on the tank or it could be the thigh on the tank method that Troy talks about which has evolved since TOTW 2 was written. We normally start with the knee method but if it doesn't work for a student, we'll try another way that does. What he said about that and about pulling his inside toes up on the peg, as well as what he does with his outside foot are all valid for him, and potentially valid for you too. The bottom line on these particular issues is this: does the way you lock on to the tank effectively allow you to keep you from having to hang on to the bars in any way? That's what really matters, and however you can achieve that for yourself is the right answer... for YOU. Leading students to the discovery of their OWN effective riding techniques is where CSS is strongest, in my opinion.

 

I wouldn't want to take on Troy in a race, but I'd confidently put my students up against his in one.

 

Benny