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Do You Keep A Straight Head On Your Shoulders?


faffi

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Maybe you have hit upon this answer; maybe it's just experience. By that I mean simple saddle time v. fierce racing competition experience.

On a track that I know fairly well I am comfortable with blind corners or blind crests because l know where to place the bike when I enter these spots; whether my head is level or not doesn't mean anything. In corners where I can see - it simply isn't a big deal if my horizon is level or not. I think of exiting the Carousel at Sears Point (or the Andretti Hairpin at Laguna) where I try to hook the end of that corner - if I tried to add in level my head at that point my head would probably fall off my shoulders.

Rainman,

 

I'm not sure what point you're trying to make here.

 

My point was that leveling your eyes with the horizon will reduce the SR triggers, and that can't be a bad thing. So teaching riders to leveling their eyes can be used as a stepping stone - it's a helper, a tool to overcome a particular SR at a particular level of training. But it's not an end in itself to bike stability, like the throttle control rule.

 

Kai

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Sorry for coming back to this one, but could you elaborate a little on Keith's comments to this, as I'm rather puzzled by that comment?

 

I find that keeping my eyes level with the horizon (or close to that) makes wonders for NOT triggering SRs, and I find that (street) riders that I talk to / work with on cornering all come back with an agreement to this statement after trying it out (on the road or track).

 

Basically the gist of the conversation was that when riders try to level their head it makes it harder for them to go with the bike and lean into the corner. Also when you are way leaned over you would really have to tilt your head quite a bit and this can be a very uncomfortable position. For this reason, if we come across a rider that is having a hard time with their body position and not going with the bike we might suggest that they NOT try to level their horizon and just lean their head into the corner. It works pretty well and I have never had a student complain that not leveling their horizon caused any issues.

 

 

I'm curious, what SRs would be alleviated by leveling your horizon?

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As Stuman said, if it's messing with the rider's positioning on the bike, then we address it. A counter leaning (leaning opposite the angle of the bike) is a common issue we deal with, and often brings excess lean angle (which can be extreme).

 

One can certainly get used to riding with the head not tilted all the way back to leveling the horizon, but it can take some adjustment initially.

 

Makes sense?

 

CF

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Rainman,

I'm not sure what point you're trying to make here.

The Point I was trying to make was better made by Stuman and Cobie but I will try again to state it more directly - my eyes (and probably everybody else's as well) do not need to be level with the horizon to see where I am going - whether it is on a motorcycle, scuba diving, skiing or any other circumstance that I can think of. This whole topic was blown so far out of proportion that I tried (and failed) to make that point as well. You don't need to be qualified to sit on the Moto GP grid to be able to see with your head cocked from the horizon.

 

Rainman

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Since I started this, and so on ;)

 

1: I do not for a moment believe you need to hold your head level with the horizon to know where you are going or properly observe where you are heading.

 

2: If you turn your yead "up the road" you will also typically get the head a bit more aligned with the horizon more often than not compared to just staring straight ahead, so this is win-win (see further ahead and get a more level view).

 

3: The only reason I advocate keeping your eyes resonably in line with the horizon is so that in a case of emergency, your brain doesn't have to contend with two horizons and try to make up which is the real one and which is the made one. Hence you are likely to react quicker and also more likely to do the right thing since there is one thing less to confuse you or demand brain power.

 

The importance of the latter will vary between individuals, but I do not believe anybody is totally oblivious to it. Try to run through a forest where you constantly have to avoid branches and where the ground is really rough and with lots of hills etc. while keeping your head cocked sideways. I doubt many will find it natural. I also believe you are more likely to fall or twist your ankle :P

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Since I started this, and so on ;)

Try to run through a forest where you constantly have to avoid branches and where the ground is really rough and with lots of hills etc. while keeping your head cocked sideways. I doubt many will find it natural. I also believe you are more likely to fall or twist your ankle :P

...OK.

 

I think we have exhausted this topic.

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Really? :lol:

 

I was merely trying to give an example why I think it's a healthy idea to keep your eyes level with the horizon, particularly during street riding, where the environment can change dramatically at any time ;) A race track is usually a much more controlled environment and has other requirements.

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Since I started this, and so on ;)

 

1: I do not for a moment believe you need to hold your head level with the horizon to know where you are going or properly observe where you are heading.

 

2: If you turn your yead "up the road" you will also typically get the head a bit more aligned with the horizon more often than not compared to just staring straight ahead, so this is win-win (see further ahead and get a more level view).

 

3: The only reason I advocate keeping your eyes resonably in line with the horizon is so that in a case of emergency, your brain doesn't have to contend with two horizons and try to make up which is the real one and which is the made one. Hence you are likely to react quicker and also more likely to do the right thing since there is one thing less to confuse you or demand brain power.

 

The importance of the latter will vary between individuals, but I do not believe anybody is totally oblivious to it. Try to run through a forest where you constantly have to avoid branches and where the ground is really rough and with lots of hills etc. while keeping your head cocked sideways. I doubt many will find it natural. I also believe you are more likely to fall or twist your ankle :P

 

Point 1 yes, and Point 2 most definitely I agree, Point 3, I don't agree with really. Survival reactions are the demon really, the bodies natural ability to look at the things we should avoid which of course on a motorbike is completely counterproductive. That's the real issue, that and the ability to turn the bike quickly to avoid things should you need to.

 

Whilst it's not the body's natural desire to be that way, you learn to go with the bike as it leans. Leveraging point 2, you can get to a situation where you'd really not give it another thought, but as with many things in life (Survival reactions in particularly), you have to adpat and become used to it, it becomes less of a focus on your mind, and your attention moves to something else. Much like when you start riding a bike, changing gear is a task that takes much attention, in time, you don't even remember doing it, it's require 0.05% of your brain's attention to do it, and so can become the case with this.

 

With acceptance and agreement that there is benefit an understanding an improvement and an ability to adpat to can be achieved, much like any skill in the world. ;)

 

Now, we're done. :lol:

 

Bullet

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Since I'm new to this forum, there will of course always be the risk of me re-introducing topics, for which I am sorry. When that happens, you people have several options:

 

1) Tell me about it

2) Play(?) ignorant and join the discussion

3) Tell me to pee off until I've done me homework

4) Ignore me

 

I may be hurt by a few of those options, but I'm a sucker for punishment ^_^

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Or you could do a search before posting a topic, if you have something new to add then post an an existing thread and it will be revived.

 

This approach makes it so much easier for those who have been here awhile. Re-hashing topics that have been thoroughly vetted has rarely added new information IMHO but does re-cycle old discussions to the extreme in some cases.

 

 

Rainman

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I agree. But sometimes, you may not hit the correct search word(s) and still end up bringing up something old.

 

If your searching

 

"Try to run through a forest where you constantly have to avoid branches and where the ground is really rough and with lots of hills etc. while keeping your head cocked sideways. I doubt many will find it natural. I also believe you are more likely to fall or twist your ankle"

 

I dont think it will bring up to many topics on this forum lol :lol:

 

There is however loads of topics similar or the same as every topic you have started over the last few weeks and they contain some excellent information, and in alot of cases Keith has added his own opinion also! most people will only read the latest topics so if something from the past interests you, add your opinion and bump it to the top!

 

Bobby

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3: The only reason I advocate keeping your eyes resonably in line with the horizon is so that in a case of emergency, your brain doesn't have to contend with two horizons and try to make up which is the real one and which is the made one. Hence you are likely to react quicker and also more likely to do the right thing since there is one thing less to confuse you or demand brain power.

 

I'm with Bullet on this one. Just because you are uncomfortable with something doesn't mean you should avoid it, quite the opposite actually. If something like this can create a mistake just because you're head isn't tilted in just the right position then its something you need to fix and not make a habbit of. Being comfortable in uncomfortable situations is one of the things that makes the pros as good as they are, it also helps a lot with being more consistant and catching other mistakes/changes easier.

 

(Heres another compaison with my motocross experience :P ). On tight hare-scramble trails I've been in some extremly disorienting positions which I did have a hard time with at first. I've riden through steeply banked berms (like one of the pictures posted) with trees flying by my head only 2ft away all viewed at about a 45 degree angle. The trees block the horizon so all I can see is the berm which looks like level ground to me and trees that are all sideways. After getting used to that from a young age I noticed that odd things like that didn't bother me anymore. I could be completly sideways and still accuratly see what I'm doing without being caught off guard or disoriented. Now orientation of my surroundings takes 0% of my attention span and its automatically understood regardless of how my head is tilted. So I can use that attention for look at referance points or paying attention to throttle control.

 

If you are most comfortable with your eyes level to the horizon then by all means do it, but you shouldn't be uncomfortable with your head being in line with the bike either.

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If you are most comfortable with your eyes level to the horizon then by all means do it, but you shouldn't be uncomfortable with your head being in line with the bike either.

I've stayed away and stepped back thinking about the levelling your eyes points made, while sanding an old race fairing (a very boring task that takes about $0.01 of my attention).

 

And I think you nailed the crux of it there. Leveling your eyes with the horizon is simply a crutch - it can be useful in the beginning when you are crawling, but it should be thrown away when you can walk comfortably, so as not to become a liability when you start running.

 

 

Kai

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