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Have You Ever Slid The Front Without ...


Crash106

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Interesting that you mention those different riding styles as a reason for the front losing traction before the rear... Looking past the fact that it's more noticeable in the wet (since low traction surfaces are the one situation where it is possible to loose the front purely by steering too quickly), let's consider the example of a racer on a dry track as the 'model example'. Have you ever seen a racer approaching a turn really fast, then as he turns in towards his apex the rear wheel slides to the outside of the corner a little bit? It almost looks as if they were backing in, but they're not. It can be hard for me to spot it on television, but having watched racing in person it really stands out. So under dry conditions on a good surface with good tyres - it's plain to see that the rear tyre will lose traction before the front (if the rider doesn't make unneeded inputs). Add in the fact that the same racers were also using the front brake while they were turning in and the rear was sliding... it just shows what is possible.

 

So then if one person can quick steer without sliding the front, but another person does slide the front - the person who is sliding must be doing something differently to cause the slide. This could be a number of things. To list some of the more common ones that come to mind:

  • holding on tight to the handlebars
  • making additional steering inputs while in the corner (making more than 1 steering input)
  • adding more lean angle (by making additional steering input)
  • using too much brake (locking the wheel)
  • changing body position (causing instability in the bike)
  • poor throttle control (causing instability in the bike)

If you're 100% positive that you're not doing any of those things, yet the front tyre still slides before the rear - then it must come down to the one final difference, which is the road surface.

 

You can watch any racing, YouTube videos, etc. and you won't see one single crash caused simply by steering too fast. It will always be due to the road surface, or the rider makes one of those above mentioned riding errors.

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Interesting that you mention those different riding styles as a reason for the front losing traction before the rear... Looking past the fact that it's more noticeable in the wet (since low traction surfaces are the one situation where it is possible to loose the front purely by steering too quickly), let's consider the example of a racer on a dry track as the 'model example'. Have you ever seen a racer approaching a turn really fast, then as he turns in towards his apex the rear wheel slides to the outside of the corner a little bit? It almost looks as if they were backing in, but they're not. It can be hard for me to spot it on television, but having watched racing in person it really stands out. So under dry conditions on a good surface with good tyres - it's plain to see that the rear tyre will lose traction before the front (if the rider doesn't make unneeded inputs). Add in the fact that the same racers were also using the front brake while they were turning in and the rear was sliding... it just shows what is possible.

.

I've seen this rear tire displacement before and was told this is what a counter steer looks like at that point of view when the rider flicks it over quickly.

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So then if one person can quick steer without sliding the front, but another person does slide the front - the person who is sliding must be doing something differently to cause the slide. This could be a number of things. To list some of the more common ones that come to mind:

  • holding on tight to the handlebars
  • making additional steering inputs while in the corner (making more than 1 steering input)
  • adding more lean angle (by making additional steering input)
  • using too much brake (locking the wheel)
  • changing body position (causing instability in the bike)
  • poor throttle control (causing instability in the bike)

If you're 100% positive that you're not doing any of those things, yet the front tyre still slides before the rear - then it must come down to the one final difference, which is the road surface.

 

 

 

I do not have lack of traction under turn-in, but at maximum lean. There is not much acceleration taking place at this point, but some. The only thing I'm not sure about is whether I continue to lean in a bit extra after applying the throttle or not. I do know that the way I used to ride, I would be braking or on trailing throttle until I stood the bike up and the front end grip was never an issue. The most plausible reason is that I continue to add lean after I apply the throttle.

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Back in Ye Olde Days, when I wasn't using tire warmers and I was so slow that I could ride a full season (5-6 days) on a single set of tires, I found that I would slide the front tire in a specific hairpin on the first lap. I did this 2-3 times on the same day, but only on the first lap.

 

The slide would be very quite small, and (if I remember correctly) happen before the apex, just after getting to full lean. Thinking back to the incidents, I attribute the slides to several factors that I combined: Cold tires (no warmers), worn front tire, poor throttle control (most likely I either had a closed or neutral throttle), and a fairly cool track (maybe 18-20C, it was the last trackday of the season).

 

So by doing less-than-wise things, yes, you can make the front tire slide on a good dry track. Today I ride 7-8 seconds faster at the same track, with no front-end problems in said hairpin (I've had the rear spin slightly out of the hairpin when being too enthusiastic with the throttle at almost full lean).

 

Kai

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Chill may be a factor as it was well under 10C and overcast when it happened. I also think I had some cold tearing on the rear tyre - at least the surface was dimpled and felt like sand paper and I was not riding anything like hard. The rubber smoothed out after riding on a sunny 15C day. And not being a great rider no doubt count for quite a bit. Still strange that it doesn't appear to be a problem when loading the front, though.

 

Setting a video camera sounds like an idea, though. Would it be best to have it stationary or have a cameraman?

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