Knee To Knee

[Subisti]

So I reread totw 2 and decided to try the knee to knee around my last track day. I went the first session like I normally do. Than next session tried it. It takes a ton more leg strength to do it. I also noticed when shifting my weight up for the transition the bike would dip down. Is this a normal thing or am I doing something wrong? Also any recommendations on leg exercises to get my legs up to par to attempt next year?

 

Thanks

[XPyrion]

I do squats with my legs spread about peg width. I also squat with more bias from one side to the other like transitioning from side to side. Basically, as I am squatting down, move to the right or left and then come back up to center.

 

As for leg strength, it could just be the way you are locking your leg on. If you find the correct leg lock position on the outside leg, it should be almost effortless. The dip down is most likely for the same reason. Since you are heavily weighting your inside leg, you are applying extra pressure to move yourself back up causing the bike to dip. You should be applying more pressure to the outside leg to bring the bike back over.

 

I will end this by saying I am not an expert, just trying to think about how I do it. I just hope I interpreted it right.

 

EDIT: I should have clarified that steering inputs bring the bike back over. Weighting the outside leg vs. the inside leg should help with the dipping.

[csmith12]

Oh snap Subisti, I help people to do this all the time at Mid-Ohio. Unless your legs are REALLY weak in this area... extra workouts or exercises are normally not needed as a focus point. A normal level of fitness is more than enough.

 

Do this;

When starting knee to knee, just focus on keeping at least one knee against the tank at ALL TIMES and it will become a habit burned into muscle memory that you don't have to focus on so much. (don't forget you might have to slide back off the tank to keep the outside knee fully locked in)

After that would be to ensure you're not lifting your bumm completely up off the seat at ANY TIME, but instead just slightly lifting your weight to make it easy to slide across the seat. This is a tough habit to break but is the key to making knee to knee a less strength intensive skill.

 

Of course XPyrion is right that it's based on decent body position and keeping tidy feet on the pegs.

 

I remember seeing your bike still had stock rearsets. Do you feel your current ergos help put your feet and knees in the best place to enable knee to knee without much fuss and moving/shifting around?

 

Also, can you clarify what you mean by the bike dipping down? Does the bike feel unstable before tip in? Are you using your arms to stabilize yourself on the bike while transitioning from one side to the other? Are you getting your bumm off the seat while still on the throttle? Do you have both legs against the tank while moving your bum or just one? I think your issue is mostly an order and timing thing but need more input from you. Also, if your transition from one side of the bike to the other is fast, and you lift your bumm completely off the seat what are you using to stabilize yourself? Hint... you twist something there to go fast.

 

Lemme know...

 

And one more thing, Mid-Ohio has areas of the track where knee to knee is especially important, the 2->3 chicane, 9>10a combo and the carousel->14 front straight chicane. Once you get a good grip on knee to knee, you can expect to take some time off your lap in these areas.

 

And to assign you some homework,.. Your next area of research should be the hip-flick to complete knee to knee.

[Hotfoot]

So I reread totw 2 and decided to try the knee to knee around my last track day. I went the first session like I normally do. Than next session tried it. It takes a ton more leg strength to do it. I also noticed when shifting my weight up for the transition the bike would dip down. Is this a normal thing or am I doing something wrong? Also any recommendations on leg exercises to get my legs up to par to attempt next year?

 

Thanks

 

It sounds like you might be adding something extra to the drill. Knee-to-knee is just designed to make sure you keep at least one knee on the tank at all times to keep your lower body stable and anchored, as opposed to having no knee lock or letting go completely when transitioning from side to side (which is a very common habit).

 

That, in itself, should not create excessive fatigue and it definitely should not cause any suspension upset.

 

If you have never used your knee to lock on, and now you suddenly start, yes you could feel some fatigue - but if it takes, as you say, "a ton more leg strength" than you expect, then it sounds like you are having to work unreasonably hard to lock in your knee, which means we need to look at your body position and figure out why it is difficult or exhausting to lock your knee in the tank. Are your rearsets too low or too high? Are you crowding the tank? When you go around a left hand corner, is your pelvis rotated INTO the corner, or away from it? If it is rotated away (left hip forward of right hip), that forces your outside knee away from the tank and makes lock on very difficult.

 

Regarding the suspension dip, it sounds like you need to incorporate the NEXT drill we cover at the school - the hip-flick, which builds upon knee-to-knee to allow you to get across the bike quickly, without upsetting the bike - it helps you move across without using the bars to pull yourself across or the pegs to push off. Pushing off using the pegs is usually the cause of a suspension bounce.

 

Hip flick uses your knee to pull your hips across the seat, and that IS tiring as it employs muscles you don't often use - unless you ride horses often.

[Subisti]

I think a major reason I get so worn out is too much arm pressure. I think instead of allowing the bike to lean over I'm kind of holding it with my arms at the lean angle I want. Which for a lap or two is ok but after that is exhausting. I was watching the css you tube vids and I guess the knee to knee was in the same video as the transition. Where in a corner you slide your butt to the top of the seat and allow th bike to follow you. It seems when I tried this it took a lot of effort to slide my butt up the seat and when I did this the bike started to lean over further. I know I have too much arm pressure in corners, and normally in transitions like the carousel I'm basically using the handle bars to pull myself back onto the bike. I know it isn't correct, but unfortunately I think it is officially a bad behavior And I'll have to fix it.

 

I was really trying to pay attention to the turns. It feels kinda like I toss the bike with one knee to another instead of having them both touch at the same time. I've also really tried to brake with my butt off the bike and both knees into the tank like Chris mentioned in a conversation, it just seems like there is no way to downshift or get into correct body position before the turn.

[csmith12]

I will follow you again ASAP, but unless something is up with your bike making it want to stand up or not hold it's line in the corners, you're simply gunna have to figure out how to relax more. A well set up machine, with good throttle control will hold it's line with no bar pressure. So somehow you must becoming disconnected/unlocked from the bike during that transition? You're a fresh A group rider, there is mostly self imposed pressure to go faster and much to see from other riders, so be mindful that their riding isn't influencing/leaking into yours as it can be very subtle.

 

And if the you prematurely start the hip flick (bumm slides across the seat and the bike follows) before initially counter steering the bike back up, it takes at least twice the muscle effort because you are fighting the cornering forces to move. And besides, you don't start the flick to the other side at near max lean angle anyway. You simply have to move over faster than the bike can flick over. For example, exiting the carousel... the transition from right to left in the A group is very fast plus you might should catch an upshift in that transition as well. It's very challenging to get right lap to lap. Don't be hard on yourself if it doesn't come in a few sessions or even a few days as these are fairly advanced skills to get comfortable with. It took me a year to get consistent/fast/smooth at it without thinking about it in that section. The best way to learn it, is to watch a CSS coach do it. They are amazingly smooth and extremely fast when it comes to transitioning. When I was with CSS, I was humbled to know that I wasn't even in the same zip code as to how fast they transitioned. Seeing is believing, I promise you. When I was learning, my biggest, most common error was to do it so quickly, that I ended too far off the seat due to momentum.

 

And yes for sure, when riders get tired. I see them use the bars to move from right/left, left/right all the time.

 

Oh, and one more thing... Don't forget to connect the dots of information you must have already learned as they build upon each other. Something to think about; effective steering + quick turn + knee to knee + hip flick + good timing = nearly effortless chicanes and very relaxed riding lap to lap.

 

As far as shifting, while braking, while the lower body is in the hang off position feels awkward at first, it gets better with time and practice. After that, you will wonder why you did it any other way in the first place?!?!?!? Your foot size plays a role in this though, so you might have a look at your shifter position while sitting on your bike in this position. Maybe your answer is simple as that.

 

"The seemingly complex problems created by circumstance, often have the most simple of solutions."

[Subisti]

Wow Chris you kick ass ! I think I was trying to slide before the counter steer. That explains the excessive strength needed to do it. Unfortunately it won't be till next year before I can ride again but I will be looking for you when that does happen.

 

Ty sir

[csmith12]

Cool, glad you figured it out, your welcome and thanks!

You will find in other sections of the track (turns 2->3) and other chicanes on other tracks, where you CAN and should be ahead of the countersteer as the cornering forces are much less influential. Tracks are supposed to be challenging right aye? Just like setting up for any other corner on the track, it should be done early. The knee to knee and hip flick are skills to assist the rider in setting up for the corner early in tight back to back corners, as I am sure you already know.

Is it next season yet?

[rchase]

So. I had trouble with the Knee to Knee myself. I was just putting too much thought into it. As Hotfoot mentioned the whole point is to stay anchored to the bike the full time as to not put pressure on the bars.

 

It never hurts to work on your lower body strength and core strength. Some great suggestions on that.

[Webberman]

So I've only taken CSS level I and II. I think knee to knee and hip flick must be a level III topic but I sure could use an understanding of how its done. I also feel I am putting way to much weight on my inside peg when cornering. I mean after I have positioned my body in preparation for the corner I still have an extreme amount of weight on the inside peg even at mid corner. Its not until I am picking up the bike on exit that I *think* I'm easing up the pressure. I did n't realize I was doing that until a few weeks ago.

 

I met a few friends of mine who ride sport bikes and we spent the day riding on and around Skyline Drive in the Shenandoah area of Virginia. I ride a Yamaha FJR1300 which is a "Sporty" touring bike, but obviously no sport bike. Its pretty heavy (600+ lbs) and does not have the greatest amount of ground clearance. On the way up the mountain there are some nice twisties and our lead rider (on an S1000RR) picked up the pace to have some fun. Nothing too crazy, but brisk. I found that I needed to hang off a bit more than I would like to on a public road to keep up with him, mostly to keep from scraping the pegs (the road is crowned so lefts are off camber). Now scraping the pegs is not that big a deal. It happens occasionally on that bike and the pegs are the folding type. Its an indication to me that I've reached the maximum safe lean angle and I either need to hang off more to keep the bike more upright, slow down or both. I usually just slow down.

 

Now this time though, with the brisk pace, I was already hanging off in an effort not to scrape. What surprised me was just how much weight I was putting through the inside peg when it finally did scrape. I had very little weight on the outside peg, in fact I could easily adjust my outside foot placement. I was trying my best to lock my knee in but the tank is slippery and does not have a grip pad. My inside peg was a different story all together. I was putting a lot of weight through the inside peg. After the ride my legs were sore and fatigued. Obviously I am doing something very wrong (asside from spirited riding on the road). I was trying to be smooth and lift my butt up using my legs to slide across the seat, but I was still using the bars to move around (wrong thing to do) on the bike. In fact it felt more like I was squatting on the pegs with my bum off the seat and then trying to move the bike underneath me when setting up for a corner. I guess I was quite surprised when I scraped a peg and found I was still doing the squat thing even while leaned over, just now all on the inside peg.

 

So here is my question. How much weight would one expect to have on the pegs, inside peg in particular, during cornering? I'm thinking that if I was comfortably locked onto the tank with my outside knee, I would not be effectively standing on the inside peg trying to keep myself in position. I was thinking that I should be light on the pegs and the bars with my weight on the seat unless I was transitioning from side to side. Still when transitioning I should not be pulling myself across with the bars nor should I be trying to push the bike up with the bars.

 

Maybe its just the ergos of my touring bike. Its not a sport bike so maybe the ergos are all wrong for the occasional hang off or maybe I need something to help grip the tank better. I thought I understood the knee to knee thing but I think I am obviously not doing it. Time to dig out my TOTW II book and re-read it. Funny thing is I don't recall this being an issue when I took CSS II this summer. Then again I just might not have noticed it.

[ktk_ace]

So I've only taken CSS level I and II. I think knee to knee and hip flick must be a level III topic but I sure could use an understanding of how its done. I also feel I am putting way to much weight on my inside peg when cornering. I mean after I have positioned my body in preparation for the corner I still have an extreme amount of weight on the inside peg even at mid corner. Its not until I am picking up the bike on exit that I *think* I'm easing up the pressure. I did n't realize I was doing that until a few weeks ago.

 

I met a few friends of mine who ride sport bikes and we spent the day riding on and around Skyline Drive in the Shenandoah area of Virginia. I ride a Yamaha FJR1300 which is a "Sporty" touring bike, but obviously no sport bike. Its pretty heavy (600+ lbs) and does not have the greatest amount of ground clearance. On the way up the mountain there are some nice twisties and our lead rider (on an S1000RR) picked up the pace to have some fun. Nothing too crazy, but brisk. I found that I needed to hang off a bit more than I would like to on a public road to keep up with him, mostly to keep from scraping the pegs (the road is crowned so lefts are off camber). Now scraping the pegs is not that big a deal. It happens occasionally on that bike and the pegs are the folding type. Its an indication to me that I've reached the maximum safe lean angle and I either need to hang off more to keep the bike more upright, slow down or both. I usually just slow down.

 

Now this time though, with the brisk pace, I was already hanging off in an effort not to scrape. What surprised me was just how much weight I was putting through the inside peg when it finally did scrape. I had very little weight on the outside peg, in fact I could easily adjust my outside foot placement. I was trying my best to lock my knee in but the tank is slippery and does not have a grip pad. My inside peg was a different story all together. I was putting a lot of weight through the inside peg. After the ride my legs were sore and fatigued. Obviously I am doing something very wrong (asside from spirited riding on the road). I was trying to be smooth and lift my butt up using my legs to slide across the seat, but I was still using the bars to move around (wrong thing to do) on the bike. In fact it felt more like I was squatting on the pegs with my bum off the seat and then trying to move the bike underneath me when setting up for a corner. I guess I was quite surprised when I scraped a peg and found I was still doing the squat thing even while leaned over, just now all on the inside peg.

 

So here is my question. How much weight would one expect to have on the pegs, inside peg in particular, during cornering? I'm thinking that if I was comfortably locked onto the tank with my outside knee, I would not be effectively standing on the inside peg trying to keep myself in position. I was thinking that I should be light on the pegs and the bars with my weight on the seat unless I was transitioning from side to side. Still when transitioning I should not be pulling myself across with the bars nor should I be trying to push the bike up with the bars.

 

Maybe its just the ergos of my touring bike. Its not a sport bike so maybe the ergos are all wrong for the occasional hang off or maybe I need something to help grip the tank better. I thought I understood the knee to knee thing but I think I am obviously not doing it. Time to dig out my TOTW II book and re-read it. Funny thing is I don't recall this being an issue when I took CSS II this summer. Then again I just might not have noticed it.

 

I got a sport touring bike a month ago (2006 Z750S) and IMHO you NEED tank pads and if your budget allows, redone seat covers with texturized rubber cloth for more friction to hold yourself into the bike properly when the pace gets fast.

before I got those 2 (my seat is already customized thanks to the prevous owner)

I was like accelerating from 15-50 MPH from 2nd gear and my butt is literally pressed against the back of the seat.

Deceleration means Im ramming my family jewels against the fuel tank thanks to the bone stock wide and slippery tank !! (OUCH!! brings new meaning to blue balls and squished sausage lol)

After I got the tank pads (DIY FTW) , had no problem keeping up with the litre bikes (in my bike friends group) on the mountain twisties~ when your lower body is stable , your upper body can relax much more and sensitivity goes up quite some notches.

 

 

 

[Webberman]

Good idea! I was suspecting that it had something to do with my inability to hold on . I'm going to research some pads to use. I want something to hold me in place when the pace goes up but not be too agressive for when I am just touring. I always wear full riding gear when I ride but its textile stuff not leather. I think the stomp grips are a bit too aggressive for my textile stuff.

 

Any suggestions other than stomp grips?

[Webberman]

So I looked into the stomp grip pads and they actually have a few different levels of pads. They have a "Volcano" style which is the pointy cones like at CSS. There is a Super Volcano which looks like you can impale yourself with and finally something called Smoothridge which is kind of like a checkered flag pattern of squares of different hights. I think I will look into the Smoothridge pads and see how they work.

[XPyrion]

Looks like I am a bit late on this but I use the TechSpec Snake Skins. Depending on the bike, the kits are a pretty good deal. For the 636, I get two pads per side (tank and fairings) and the one in the middle of the tank. It offers greate coverage depending on your position on the bike. I know many use Stompgrip also.