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Recommended Set Up For 2008 Honda Cbr600Rr


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#1 BLSJDS

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Posted 08 March 2012 - 06:51 PM

Hi Timmer,

I have a 2008 Honda CBR600RR that is basically a track-only bike. It is registered & inspected so I can ride it on the street maybe 3 or 4 times a year, but it's primary use (95%) is for track riding.

I've done some modifications for the track like rear-sets, ss braided brake lines, -1 +2 sprockets & 520 chain (and the speedo healer), as well as Ohlins suspension front and rear.

The rest of the bike is bone stock, so I was thinking I'd like to increase / better manage the power as well. I've noticed at lower rpms, as I roll on throttle in a corner (from being off throttle), the bike isn't as smooth as I'd like - it "jerks" a little bit, if that makes sense. At CSS last year, Will had mentioned this is a common problem and that something like the Dynojet PC would be able to tune that out.

What do you recommend would be the best bang-for-the-buck modification(s) to start with? Full exhaust, PC, auto-tune, some other combo? What full exhaust system do you recommend? What about air intake - any mods needed there?

Thank you so much for your help!
Dan

#2 BLSJDS

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Posted 13 March 2012 - 05:23 PM

Bueller? Bueller?

#3 BLSJDS

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Posted 16 March 2012 - 02:22 PM

FWIW, I am also looking into a quick shifter - any compatability issues there?

#4 BLSJDS

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Posted 27 March 2012 - 06:12 PM

"Paging Timmer - Doctor Timmer - you are wanted in the Tuning Forum"... :(

#5 fossilfuel

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Posted 05 April 2012 - 10:49 AM

Hey Buddy. You already have some very nice upgrades (Ohlins). Get a pipe, Bazazz or dynojet ECM with quick shifter and block off the PAIR system on the engine. You can buy the plates on line or make them yourself. good luck.
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#6 BLSJDS

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Posted 06 April 2012 - 02:23 PM

Thanks fossilfuel - the quickshifter is actually what I am most interested in now. My first trackday with the Ohlins suspension is in 2 weeks - I can't wait.

#7 Timmer

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Posted 06 April 2012 - 07:52 PM

Sorry for the late response Dan....I've been locked in the dyno room for the last couple weeks.

In answer to your question....
I would suggest getting a fuel controller first(Power Commander, Bazzaz, etc.).

When we make a map for a stock bike, we often see good gains in how the stock bike runs once we are finished mapping it. Eventhough most people equate a Power Commander to more maximum power(full throttle, high RPM), we also get a lot of positive feedback from our customers about improved throttle response and smoother running of the engine in other areas.

If you decide later to add on an exhaust and/or air filter, you will already have the fuel controller to adjust your fueling and make the bike run the best it can with your new parts.

Quickshifters are also a really neat addition. Not only does it feel and sound cool, it also makes an improvement in lap times.

Dynojet offers a bunch of products for your bike. I would start by getting a Power Commander V(part number 16-001). Your bike has 8 injectors, so if you want to add the quickshifter you will also need to get either the SFM(SFM-1)to kill the upper injectors, or the Ignition Module(6-70) to kill spark. The Ignition Module will also allow you to adjust ignition timing, which will give even further power gains on your bike.

Hope that answers your questions. Please let me know if you have any others. I'll make sure I get back to you sooner this time. :D

Best,
Timmer

#8 BLSJDS

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Posted 06 April 2012 - 11:53 PM

Thanks Timmer - no worries!

What is the better way to handle it - killing the fuel or killing the spark? What do you recommend? The additional cost of the ignition module is not an issue.

What about the QEM quick shifter expansion module? Is that worth consideration?

Thanks again!
Dan

#9 Timmer

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Posted 07 April 2012 - 03:08 AM

If the extra cost isn't an issue then I would go with the Quickshifter and Ignition Module.

There's some varying opinions on this, but personally I think the quickshift is a little smoother when you kill spark.

The other reason I would go with the Ignition Module is because you also get ignition timing control.

The CBR600RR and 1000RR come from the factory with retarded ignition timing at full throttle and peak power RPM. I've heard that Honda does this so that the bike will conform to noise emissions, which gets tested at 1/2 the RPM where peak power occurs. By retarding the timing up top they make peak power occur at a lower RPM. No, I'm not making that up...haha.

Anyway, we sell a device called an IRC that fools the ECU so that it doesn't retard the ignition timing up top. You get the same result with an Ignition Module since it gives ignition timing control. You might also get some gains in the lower RPM by advancing the timing a bit.

AND....You also get our Launch Control and Pit Lane Speed Limiter features with the Ignition Module...if those interest you at all.

Hope that helps. Post up any other questions if you've got em. :)

#10 BLSJDS

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Posted 07 April 2012 - 11:54 AM

Thank you very much, Timmer!

Ok - so my shopping list is as follows:

PCV part # 16-001
Ignition Module part # 6-70
Quick Shifter Pressure Shift Sensor part # 4-114

I've got a set of Woodcraft rear sets in the MotoGP configuration (see picture below), so I believe the push type pressure sensor would be the correct set up. Based on the picture, what length / size shift rod do I need to install the pressure sensor? My current shift rod measures 9.25" end to end (not counting the nuts on either end).

Again - thank you so much for your help!
Dan

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#11 Timmer

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Posted 09 April 2012 - 03:28 PM

Hey Dan,

The part numbers in your shopping list look right to me.

You will also need to get a shift rod like you mentioned. The part number for the shift rod you need is 32104060. The shift rod is already the correct length for your bike. You just need to remove your stock shift rod and install the Dynojet shift rod and Quickshifter in its place.

The instructions that come with the PC5 and Ignition Module should be pretty good, but let me know if you have any questions.

Hope you enjoy the new parts! :)

#12 BLSJDS

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Posted 10 April 2012 - 05:27 PM

Hey Timmer -

Thanks very much for confirming. I'm sure I will have questions once I begin the installation.

Regarding the shift rod, the OEM rod length is about 187mm. The shorter rod you mentioned (part # 32104060) is 135mm, so I am estimating that the quick shifter module itself is about 52mm.

Right now, I have an aftermarket shift rod (due to the Woodcraft rear sets) that measures 235mm (the rod in the picture). Based on an estimated quick shifter module length of 52mm, I would need a shift rod measuring 183mm to make this set up work. Since the OEM rod is 187mm, I think it just might work out. If not, maybe I can get away with cutting it down a bit.

Thanks again!
Dan

#13 BLSJDS

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Posted 07 May 2012 - 02:06 PM

Hey Timmer,

I finally received my stuff (PCV, Ignition Module, & Quickshifter). I updated the software / firmware and started to familiarize myself with everything. Now I have some questions:

1. When I click "Send Map" in the tuning software, it sends EVERYTHING (not just the fuel map) to the PCV, correct? Meaning it sends the ignition map, any configuration changes I made (like for the quickshifter), etc.

2. Does the ignition map / grid work the same way as the fuel map? Meaning, if you want to change timing somewhere, you would enter it as a percentage change. So if the ignition map reads all "0" across the board, it means that nothing is changed from the OEM ignition map. Don't worry, I'm not playing around with the timing...yet... :P .

3. In the settings for Quickshifter Configuration, since I am using the Ignition Module to kill the spark, I should select "Kill Spark Only", correct? Dumb question, but I just want to be sure.

4. Also in the settings for Quickshifter Configuration, since I am using a PUSH type sensor, I should select "Normally Open", correct?

5. Finally - what settings do you recommend for Quickshifter enabled RPM & kill time? IIRC, the initial programming has it at 3000 rpm and 65 ms kill time (for each gear). Although I do see a list of kill times for each gear, I am not sure if my set up allows to have a different kill time for each gear. Do you know?

That's it for now - thank you so much for your time & help!!
Dan

#14 Timmer

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Posted 09 May 2012 - 04:23 PM

Dan,

1. When you click the "Send Map" button it only sends the map tables. It does not send configuration changes. Configuration changes are applied when you click "Ok" in the menu boxes for the feature you are changing. When you click "Send Map" the software will send all of the tables to the PC5 and Ignition Module(assuming it is also connected to software). FYI...if you are playing with your PC5 and Ign Module at your desk, make sure that you have BOTH the PC5 and Ignition Module plugged in via USB.

2. The numbers in the ignition map are slightly different than the PC5. In the FUEL map the numbers represent % fuel change. The numbers in the IGNITION map represent degrees of advance/retard. Positive numbers are ignition advance, while negative numbers are ignition retard.

3. This is really up to you. There are varying opinions on this. Personally, I like killing both. I'd suggest trying it both ways and see which one you like better. Honestly, you may not even notice the difference between the two. Important note...when you turn the quickshifter on or change any of the settings make sure that both the PC5 AND Ignition Module are connected to the software. If you turn the quickshifter on with only the PC5 connected to software, it won't get turned on in the Ignition Module. You can do this by USBing both the PC5 and Ignition Module if you are at your desk, or by starting your bike and only USBing the PC5(assuming you have connected the CAN cable between the PC5 and Ignition Module). If both units are connected and talking to software you will see "2 Devices Connected" in the lower right corner of the software.

4. If you just bought your quickshifter, you want to use NORMALLY OPEN. This doesn't have anything to do with the PUSH or PULL type. The NORMALLY OPEN refers to the default state of the quickshifter switch. A NORMALLY OPEN quickshifter is an open switch that closes when you shift. In the past we have used a quickshifter where the default state was NORMALLY CLOSED, which is why we give the option in software. Our latest quickshifter is NORMALLY OPEN.

5. The default 65ms kill time is good to start with. Again, this is kind of a personal preference thing. I would suggest starting with the 65ms and experiment with moving it up and down to find what feels best to you. Most guys run kill times in the 50-85ms range. You CAN do gear dependant kill times, but you will need to wire the speed sensor of the bike into the PC5. From there you need to calibrate the speed input in the PC5, and then calibrate gears in the PC5. There should be instructions in the install guide that comes with the PC5 on how to do this. There is also an additional "Help" section in the PC5 Control Center software.

Hope that helps. Let me know if you have anymore questions. :)

#15 BLSJDS

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Posted 09 May 2012 - 05:21 PM

Thank you so so much, Timmer - I really appreciate the detailed information!

1. Yes - when doing the initial set up at my desk, I had BOTH the PCV & the IM hooked up via USB and verified that both devices were recognized.

2. Are there any customized ignition maps available (like the fuel maps)? Or is it best to get the bike on a dyno to play around with the timing? My bike is stock (for now), so there may not be much to gain from any changes.

3. Excellent information - thank you! I believe I enabled it with both devices hooked up, but now I'm just about done hooking them up to the bike, so I'll do it again as you described with the bike on, just to be sure.

4. Yup - just bought it, so "Normally Open" it is B) .

5. Again - excellent information - thank you!

The PCV is completely wired up, and tonight I hope to finish up the IM and the Quickshifter. I plan to have the bike back together by this weekend for some test riding. I'll be at Thunderbolt on 5/21 & 5/22 for "further testing" :D .

Dan

#16 Timmer

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Posted 09 May 2012 - 09:41 PM

Awesome Dan! Looks like you should be ready to go.

In answer to your question about ignition maps....no, we don't have any ignition maps available. There are a lot of factors that affect how much ignition advance a particular bike can run(altitude, fuel octane, modifications, etc.), so it would be impossible for us to make maps to cover all the possibilities.

Remember how I told you that Honda retards the ignition timing at 100% throttle and high RPM to meet noise emissions? You can now fix this by advancing the timing in that area with the Ignition Module! Set the value in your ignition table to 7 in the 80% and 100% TP column from 8000RPM up to redline. That will perk it up in that area. The rest of the map you will have to experiment with or get it tuned on a dyno. You might want to bring your laptop to the track so you can experiment with your new toys. ;)

Best of luck, and have fun at Thunderbolt! :)

#17 BLSJDS

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Posted 10 May 2012 - 01:03 PM

Thanks for the additional info, Timmer B) .

I had a 1987 Corvette that I did a lot of engine work to and wound up getting into DIY tuning. I had an AFR meter that would also data log rpm, MAF sensor data, throttle position, etc. Getting the fuel correct got a lot easier as I went along and I had the AFR info to guide me, but I was never really sure that the timing was optimal since I never put the car on the dyno. I wouldn't mind experimenting with a few degrees here and there on the CBR to see if I can pick up some HP :) .

I do have one more question: How does the quickshifter solenoid actually work? What causes the signal to be sent to the PCV? I think it is pressure sensitive, but I was surprised that there didn't seem to be any movement or compression of the ends of the solenoid to somehow activate the signal. How does it sense the pressure?

I'll need to steal my daughter's laptop for trackside adjustments, so no making fun of the light purple color :D .

#18 Timmer

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Posted 10 May 2012 - 03:17 PM

Dan,

Just make sure you are smoking all the other guys on the track and I doubt you will catch any grief about the light purple laptop. Haha.

In answer to your question...the quickshifter is just a simple switch. When you push on the shift lever with enough force it closes the switch inside the quickshifter. The Power Commander detects that the switch was closed and kills fuel and/or spark for the duration of the kill time.

You can actually use a voltmeter/multimeter to test the quickshifter. Just connect both leads of your voltmeter/multimeter to the two wires from the quickshifter. With no pressure on the shift lever you should see that there is no continuity between the two wires of the quickshifter. Now press on your shift lever with a little bit of force. Your voltmeter/multimeter should now indicate that their is continuity between the two wires. Pretty simple eh?

You can use the above method to test your quickshifter should you ever have problems with it.

#19 BLSJDS

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Posted 10 May 2012 - 03:28 PM

That's what I thought, but there doesn't seem to be any moving parts on the quickshifter (unless mine is broken?), so I didn't know how the switch inside was closed. I'm guessing it is pressure sensitive? If so, that's pretty cool. Can it be adjusted to have more or less pressure to activate it? (I don't have any problems as I haven't even tested it out yet, I am just curious B) ).

I am going to throw the voltmeter on it tonight just to see it in action :D .

#20 BLSJDS

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Posted 14 May 2012 - 03:41 PM

FWIW, I completed the Power Commander V, Ignition Module, & Quick Shifter installation. Here is my story:

It wasn't too difficult, but at times very tedious because just getting to some of the fuel injector connectors, etc was really tough with my big stupid hands. After I got everything wired up and the bike back together, I took it for a test ride. It started fine, there was no "FI" light, and throttle response seemed good, so I guess the fuel and ignition maps that I loaded were ok.

Then I decided to test the quick shifter. I accelerated in second gear to about 6000 rpm, stepped on the gear shifter and NOTHING happened. No momentary ignition kill, no seamless gear shifting, nothing. So I tried it a few more times, using a lot more pressure on the gear shifter (thinking it may not be sensing the pressure of my foot). Still nothing. Well, actually - not nothing. I successfully BENT the shift rod because I was pushing down so hard. F'ed it up real good. So I ride back home, cursing up a storm and ready to cry. I re-flash all the software, make sure everything is programmed properly, and unbend the shift rod. Take the bike for another ride, still NOTHING (except for more bending of the shift rod). WTF?!?!?!?!?

I decide it is time to check the wiring connections, starting with the quick shifter wiring to the Power Commander. Only I discover that I didn't wire it to the Power Commander, I f'ing accidentally wired it to the Ignition Module, which looks just like the f'ing Power Commander!!!! So I wire it up correctly to the Power Commander, once again unbend the increasingly weakening OEM aluminum shift rod, and take it for yet another test ride. Now it works perfectly! I mean, it is absolutely awesome. Just tap on the gear shifter and it jumps right into the next gear, no clutch needed, full throttle the entire time (except for the 65 millisecond cut off of the ignition) and off you go. It is an absolute blast to ride, just stupid fun - ha ha B) . Only issue now is that I had to order a new, stronger shift rod because the crummy, bent up, OEM aluminum one is just about toast. I hope to have it later this week and them I'm good to go for CSS in a week B) .

Again - thanks Timmer for all the additional information and support! A full exhaust, the PAIR mod, & Auto Tune aren't far behind...




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