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Cornering Style: Corner Speed Vs Square Off


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#1 ANORXIC51

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Posted 19 April 2012 - 07:35 PM

Just wanted to hear people's thoughts on the different types of ways to get through a corner, and if you think it is bike dependent, corner dependent, skill dependent, or a mix of all three.

I've always heard that for bikes in the smaller engine classes (up to ones in the SS class), you want to carry as much speed into the turn as you can and maintain/ build on that momentum thru and on out of the turn.

For bikes in the SBK class, as well as bikes of the twin cylinder flavor, that it is more 'point & shoot'. Braking at the latest point possible and sacrifice a bit of entry speed, quick turn the bike, and get the bike stood up as soon as possible to utilize the available power for the drive out.

I'm looking forward towards my first trackday on this bike (middleweight twin) May 11 at BIR, and can't help but think that I could use BOTH of these styles depending on the turn. Main reason I say that is there are some turns that have a small straight afterwards, so having a higher entry speed into and thru would be beneficial to having a higher exit speed. Then there are a couple where I think that sacrificing entry speed into one corner by squaring it off would set up very well for the following corner (thinking T4->5, 12->13).

I'm just thinking out loud here. I already know it is going to be a trial & error sort of thing (this way felt great for T__, that way felt slow/horrible,_____). Feel free to share your thoughts.

OH, and IB4justgetoutandridethething. ^_^

-Christian

#2 Eirik

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Posted 19 April 2012 - 08:06 PM

You will need to change the style to suit the corner in that slower corners are more suitable for point and shoot than fast corners. Also, if you have lots of power, you can better afford low apex speed than if you have limited grunt.

Personally, I feel far safer using the point and shoot style than the high corner speed style, but I only ride on public roads, so I rarely corner above 75 mph. Freddie Spencer used a point and shoot style, sliding the front going in and the rear going out, whereas Kenny Roberts Sr. preferred slow in, fast out, sliding the rear tyre. Barry Sheene put a lot of load on the front end, braking late and got out slower and gentler. All three were world champions. Alas, many styles will work. You need to get instructions, and also see what you're most comfortable with - and preferably time various sections so you can see what impact different styles have on your sector times.

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#3 Crash106

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Posted 19 April 2012 - 09:10 PM

Welcome ANORXIC51,

I was just talking to a lady in her 50s. Her husband rides a Gold Wing. She's been a passenger for years, but she is now a new rider on a midsize cruiser. Her first bike. She is very timid about cornering. It scares her to lean over at all. She feels like just riding the speed limit on some corners is PLENTY of excitement for her. It will be ages before she even WANTS to carry a lot of speed in the corners.

So, I was thinking about her and about some of the thing KC said in TOTWII and wondered if riding straight and quick turning the bike would be something she would be interested in. So, I hopped on my Wing and tried squaring off the corners and quick turning the bike. I found that on a lot of curves, by the time I got the bike turned, I was up again and pointed straight down the road exiting the corner. Other corners, I had to spend more than a few seconds "hanging there" with the bike leaned over, but by squaring off the turns, I could cut that uncomfortable (for her) "hang time" down a lot. I was certainly able to keep up with traffic while squaring off the turns and riding the speed limit, I didn't need to do any hard braking either.

Me? I like big swoopy turns on a nice, wide "qualifying line" (outside, inside, outside), but it was kind of relaxing to quick turn the bike and find myself riding along straight up and down again. It was kind of weird. It felt a little like cheating. Still, I found squaring off the corners and quick turning the bike to be a good way to spend as little time as possible in what some new riders feel is that "horribly-uncomfortable leaned-over I-am-about-to-fall position."

You know, I wouldn't think of teaching quick turning to a new rider. They don't need it. Right? Why would you need to quick turn at 45 mph? Having played with it and thought about it from a beginners point of view, I wonder if squaring off the corners and quick turning the bike might not be a smart and stress resistant approach.
Best Wishes,
Crash106
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#4 ktk_ace

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Posted 20 April 2012 - 06:09 AM

i ride public roads too

point and shoot gives a much bigger margin of error if something comes up.

track... u can try everything :)




#5 Johnny Rod

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Posted 20 April 2012 - 11:10 AM

You're talking about different riding styles for different bikes i.e. fast ones and slow ones. As a generalism, using the optimum line carries the highest corner speed, and at some point on the exit you have to add power so using up some grip, so you need to widen the radius of the exit to compensate (lean less). Now we're getting away from the ideal line. This is faster than just going around the corner at a fixed speed then gettign on the gas afterwards.

The point and shoot style is an extension of this, the cornering bit is made shorter, the bike gets upright sooner after the bend, and you get on the gas sooner. As a product (hello Keith) this gives you a faster lap time on a powerful bike, sacrifciing ideal corner speed for brute force.

Which you use on one bike in various bends depends what will be quickest for you. Yes a twin can romp out of a bend compared to a four (so more like a big bike) but you'll probably be losing out on striaght-line speed on longer straights so would probably want to carry a bit more corner speed. In a slow bend, cornering fast or slow is only a few mph difference, better to get back on the gas asap, on more or less any bike.

As you'll find, in complexes, your line through a bend depends a bit on what will happen in the next bend, that's what makes it fun!

#6 Hotfoot

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Posted 20 April 2012 - 05:25 PM

Johnny Rod makes some great points.

Part of the fun of riding is finding the quickest way through a given turn, by making the best use of your own skills, the bike's capability, the characteristics of the particular corner AND how the corner ties into the track before and after it! So clearly it's not a one-size-fits-all answer. One thing I really liked in CodeRace was an exercise where we took various lines through a corner and they had a radar gun set up to show speed on a large display board - so we could see, at turn exit, the different exit speeds, and we could experiment with different lines to see which gave the best result. Very cool.

There is a rule in Twist of the Wrist, to choose the ideal line. Challenge to the group: see if you can find it and post it up here! Here's a hint, the sentence starts and ends as follows: "The line that... ________ ...is an ideal line." Who can fill in the blank? :)
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#7 Matt

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Posted 21 April 2012 - 01:17 AM

Johnny Rod makes some great points.

Part of the fun of riding is finding the quickest way through a given turn, by making the best use of your own skills, the bike's capability, the characteristics of the particular corner AND how the corner ties into the track before and after it! So clearly it's not a one-size-fits-all answer. One thing I really liked in CodeRace was an exercise where we took various lines through a corner and they had a radar gun set up to show speed on a large display board - so we could see, at turn exit, the different exit speeds, and we could experiment with different lines to see which gave the best result. Very cool.

There is a rule in Twist of the Wrist, to choose the ideal line. Challenge to the group: see if you can find it and post it up here! Here's a hint, the sentence starts and ends as follows: "The line that... ________ ...is an ideal line." Who can fill in the blank? :)


... permits exact application of throttle control rule #1 ... (from memory, don't have my TOTW with me at the moment)

#8 FreeFlyDive

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Posted 21 April 2012 - 02:55 PM

There is a rule in Twist of the Wrist, to choose the ideal line. Challenge to the group: see if you can find it and post it up here! Here's a hint, the sentence starts and ends as follows: "The line that... ________ ...is an ideal line." Who can fill in the blank? :)


Matt got it...I had to look it up! Otherwise I would have thought the ideal line is one which requires the least amount of steering corrections (which does play a roll, but not the answer you are seeking).

"The line that allows the throttle to be applied, exactly by the rule, is an ideal line." The book goes on to state the "The "everyman's ideal line" does not exist, and it never will. Different lines are the rider's own personal way of seeing and doing his job: A concatenation* of his strong and weak points, dos and can't dos and machine limitations, and, of course, his SR threshold." (Chapter 4)

I appreciated the excuse to reach for the book and dust it off from last year. I'll be attending level IV on 21/22 May at Thunderbolt...I hope to see some of you there!

Cheers,
Majdi

#9 justin giron

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Posted 21 April 2012 - 08:52 PM

"The line that allows the throttle to be applied, exactly by the rule, is an ideal line." The book goes on to state the "The "everyman's

Majdi

Your answer itself begs the question:

<< What is the rule? >>

Ago



#10 FreeFlyDive

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Posted 22 April 2012 - 09:53 AM


"The line that allows the throttle to be applied, exactly by the rule, is an ideal line." The book goes on to state the "The "everyman's

Majdi

Your answer itself begs the question:

<< What is the rule? >>

Ago


Rule Number One- "Once the throttle is cracked on. it is rolled on evenly, smoothly, and constantly throughout the remainder of the turn."






#11 Crash106

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Posted 22 April 2012 - 09:17 PM

What about Cornering Rule #1: One single steering action per turn?

Here is my bonus question: How can this rule be true for both a wide "qualifying" line, and a "point-and-shoot" line?

(Check page 62 of ONE of the twist books.)
Best Wishes,
Crash106
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#12 ktk_ace

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Posted 24 April 2012 - 01:57 PM

What about Cornering Rule #1: One single steering action per turn?

Here is my bonus question: How can this rule be true for both a wide "qualifying" line, and a "point-and-shoot" line?

(Check page 62 of ONE of the twist books.)





im guessing the steer speed (lazy slow steer VS super moto-gp fast quick steer)

#13 mugget

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Posted 04 May 2012 - 04:07 AM

Hey ANORXIC51, good questions. Another thing to keep in mind for your track day - it's better to be faster in the fast corners, than to try and be fast in the slow corners. You'll do better things for your lap time that way. So no point in trying to really get on the throttle hard out of a slow corner if it makes the rear slide and move around, better just to take it easy and get a good, reasonable drive out (especially if the next corner is a fast one). But from what you said about sacrificing slow corners it seems like you already got the hang of that...

If I had to put down a few 'rules' for an ideal cornering style, they would be:
  • Turning as quickly as possible (quick steer - allows faster entry speed and later turn in point)
  • Making only one steering input (if you need to make a steering correction, you blew it)
  • Opening the throttle as early as possible (without being so early that you run wide)
  • Throttle Control Rule #1 (if you have to back off the throttle, you blew it)
It may be counter-productive to try and categorise each corner and say "okay, this one needs to be squared off, this one needs move corner speed..." (if not just for the reason that it's impossible to define different corners with one definition.) Personally, I would just think about my line, and what I'm trying to accomplish with the turn. It almost seems to me like the terms "square it off" and "corner speed" are a misnomer. What I mean is - thinking about my ideal corner, whether it is a single or double apex, very fast or medium speed corner, I would have a fast entry speed, I would quick steer, my corner speed would still be high, and I would get back on the throttle early as well..? It seems like corner speed is over rated. If you're using quick steer, you're going to be leant over for less time in the corner anyway. Who do you think would make a faster lap time - someone who takes big, sweeping lines so they can show their corner speed, or someone who spends less time in the corner? The person who spends less time in the corner can use full throttle sooner, right?

The only other thing I would say is don't be afraid to try some different things, even if it takes you off the 'usual line' that everyone else seems to be stuck to.

New riders definitely need quick steer. That is just about the single biggest confidence booster (or was for me, at least). Posted Image

#14 Johnny Rod

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Posted 04 May 2012 - 02:08 PM

What about Cornering Rule #1: One single steering action per turn?

Here is my bonus question: How can this rule be true for both a wide "qualifying" line, and a "point-and-shoot" line?

(Check page 62 of ONE of the twist books.)



They're both simple turns, just one has you turning deeper and tighter (smaller radius) than the other, so mid-corner speed is lower. You can do them both at constant radius i.e. a single steering input.

#15 mugget

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Posted 04 May 2012 - 10:20 PM

You can do them both at constant radius i.e. a single steering input.


It should also be mentioned that just because a single steering input is used, doesn't mean a constant radius turn will always be produced (depending on when the throttle is re-applied, a significantly tightening line can also be produced).




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