aslcbr600 Posted September 2, 2012 Report Share Posted September 2, 2012 Ok I think I may have got the understanding but there is a question I have. Lazy turning is defined as slowly leaning the bike into the turn correct? Now quick turn is to turn in as early as possible and get to your lean angle faster so you can get back on the throttle correct? My question is if you are to turn in as early as possible to get back on the gas, how are you to know if you are lazy turning or quick turning? Take for instance the GP guys seem to be more on the lazy cornering then the quick cornering until they hit the chicanes then they are flicking that thing side to side very quickly! Am I getting quick turn mixed up with quick flick? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Fajita Dave Posted September 2, 2012 Report Share Posted September 2, 2012 Ok I think I may have got the understanding but there is a question I have. Lazy turning is defined as slowly leaning the bike into the turn correct? Now quick turn is to turn in as early as possible and get to your lean angle faster so you can get back on the throttle correct? My question is if you are to turn in as early as possible to get back on the gas, how are you to know if you are lazy turning or quick turning? Take for instance the GP guys seem to be more on the lazy cornering then the quick cornering until they hit the chicanes then they are flicking that thing side to side very quickly! Am I getting quick turn mixed up with quick flick? When you quick turn you want to turn in as late as possible. Slower turning forces you to turn in sooner. The purpose of quick turning is to turn in as late as possible which gives you a later apex through the corner. A later apex lets you get on the throttle sooner, be more aggressive with throttle in the exit and you can stand the bike back up sooner exiting the turn which lets you carry more speed down the straight away. A slow turn in will cause just the opposite as that along with possibly needing to trail brake and get on the throttle later. I think the slow turn in rate you normally see in MotoGP is usually because of the extremely high speeds they enter turns. Its tough to quick turn at 130mph compared to 80mph. If they're using a defensive line to keep people from passing they normal use an earlier apex and trail brake which causes them to use a lazy turn in rate. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
tmckeen Posted September 2, 2012 Report Share Posted September 2, 2012 I wouldn't say your confusing "Quick Turn" with "Quick Flick" unless you mean "Hip Flick" which is something else entirely, I would say your confusing us mortals with the "Aliens" of MotoGP. They appear to be turning in much slower then would be possible, but that is a byproduct of their being on the brakes, crazy hard on the brakes at insane lean angle according to Johnny Rea's recent test, right up to the apex. there was a recent discussion on the subject of how "Quick Turn" applies in racing conditions Here Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
khp Posted September 2, 2012 Report Share Posted September 2, 2012 Ok I think I may have got the understanding but there is a question I have. Lazy turning is defined as slowly leaning the bike into the turn correct? Now quick turn is to turn in as early as possible and get to your lean angle faster so you can get back on the throttle correct? My question is if you are to turn in as early as possible to get back on the gas, how are you to know if you are lazy turning or quick turning? Take for instance the GP guys seem to be more on the lazy cornering then the quick cornering until they hit the chicanes then they are flicking that thing side to side very quickly! Am I getting quick turn mixed up with quick flick? When you quick turn you want to turn in as late as possible. Slower turning forces you to turn in sooner. The purpose of quick turning is to turn in as late as possible which gives you a later apex through the corner. A later apex lets you get on the throttle sooner, be more aggressive with throttle in the exit and you can stand the bike back up sooner exiting the turn which lets you carry more speed down the straight away. A slow turn in will cause just the opposite as that along with possibly needing to trail brake and get on the throttle later. The street-riding benefit of the quick turn is that it allows you to see more of the turn before committing to lean angle, apex and exit and thereby react to unanticipated obstacles (parked or oncoming car in your lane, sand/oil in the turn) and road changes (decreasing radius, elevation changes) with more margin Otherwise, +1 to Dave and T-McKeen's comment. Kai Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
aslcbr600 Posted September 2, 2012 Author Report Share Posted September 2, 2012 Ah ok so I had the meaning of quick turn wrong it's not to turn in as early as possible but to have a later apex and more drive. I suppose with track time experience will make you learn when to quick turn and when not to. Makes sense that at higher speeds you wont be able to quick turn the bike so you would have to trail it into the turn. So for qualifying purposes you would want to use the quick turn method and follow your qualifying lines......then when actually racing to keep people from coming alongside or passing you wouldn't quick turn because you want to block those race lines? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
tmckeen Posted September 2, 2012 Report Share Posted September 2, 2012 I wouldn't say the idea of quick turn revolves around turning in as late as possible, it's simply to go from fully upright to fully leaned over as quickly as conditions allow, you can choose to move your turn point back a good ways compared to a lazy turn in and apex later,which is very good for blind corners, or turn at the same point and use a lot less lean angle for the corner, or carry more speed into the corner. Your turn-point, line and apex can change depending on any number of factors as for learning when to quick turn and when not to, can you think of a situation where you wouldn't want to set your lean angle as quickly as conditions allow ? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Fajita Dave Posted September 2, 2012 Report Share Posted September 2, 2012 I wouldn't say the idea of quick turn revolves around turning in as late as possible, it's simply to go from fully upright to fully leaned over as quickly as conditions allow, you can choose to move your turn point back a good ways compared to a lazy turn in and apex later,which is very good for blind corners, or turn at the same point and use a lot less lean angle for the corner, or carry more speed into the corner. Your turn-point, line and apex can change depending on any number of factors as for learning when to quick turn and when not to, can you think of a situation where you wouldn't want to set your lean angle as quickly as conditions allow ? Thats very true and much more clear that I could ever say it! Now that I think about it you definitely can't use quick turn in all situations. A decreasing radius turn is the first one that comes to mind. You can still turn the bike quickly when turning in for your apex but before that you just need to follow the curve. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
aslcbr600 Posted September 2, 2012 Author Report Share Posted September 2, 2012 I wouldn't say the idea of quick turn revolves around turning in as late as possible, it's simply to go from fully upright to fully leaned over as quickly as conditions allow, you can choose to move your turn point back a good ways compared to a lazy turn in and apex later,which is very good for blind corners, or turn at the same point and use a lot less lean angle for the corner, or carry more speed into the corner. Your turn-point, line and apex can change depending on any number of factors as for learning when to quick turn and when not to, can you think of a situation where you wouldn't want to set your lean angle as quickly as conditions allow ? A double apex turn or wet pavement would be my best answer. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
tmckeen Posted September 3, 2012 Report Share Posted September 3, 2012 A double apex turn or wet pavement would be my best answer. Wouldn't reducing the lean angle required for the turn be beneficial in both of these situations ? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
aslcbr600 Posted September 3, 2012 Author Report Share Posted September 3, 2012 A double apex turn or wet pavement would be my best answer. Wouldn't reducing the lean angle required for the turn be beneficial in both of these situations ? Yes I would say so. I am guessing I didn't answer the question right lol. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
khp Posted September 3, 2012 Report Share Posted September 3, 2012 A double apex turn or wet pavement would be my best answer. Wouldn't reducing the lean angle required for the turn be beneficial in both of these situations ? Yes I would say so. I am guessing I didn't answer the question right lol. Actually, I cannot come up with a situation where Quick Turn would not be a good idea. But then again, maybe that's why I'm not a coach The only times that a Quick Turn has created problems for me, is when I turn too much or too early. But that's not a problem from the Quick Turn in itself - it's a plain rider error. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
faffi Posted September 3, 2012 Report Share Posted September 3, 2012 I do not QT when I ride in snow or and ice as I really do not see the point in tossing the bike away. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
aslcbr600 Posted September 5, 2012 Author Report Share Posted September 5, 2012 I found my clarification just now when I was doing some more reading in the twist 2 book, this comes from chapter 16 second page: Steering Rule Number Two What's the rule? Steer as-quickly-as-possible in every turn. As-quickly-as-possible means: According to the turn's demands. Obviously, you wouldn't give it a snap-over at 10 mph in a parking lot, because you will fall. On the high end, (say, coming up to a 120-mph turn), you're not going to get it turned that quickly. You won't necessarily fall, but you just can't snap a bike at 120 mph because the gyro effect is too strong. So, the as-quickly-as-possible is tailored* to the turn but it's always A.Q.A.P . Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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