fossilfuel

Hey Fossilfuel, did you find anything out about this. I'd be interested in setting up Friday as well. This will be my first class and am not quite sure how things work. Do we need to set up in the paddock? Should I bring an ez-up, stand, gas, tools etc. Topher56 Here is the deal......First of all don't try calling Barber or Zoom to find out anything.....Secondly, the way it works is you have to get to the office next to the gate to sign in between 18:30 and 21:00 on Friday to sign in and get a wrist band. Once you have a wrist band you can go in and out 24 hours a day if the same rules apply as do on track event weekends....If you are going to stay on the grounds, you can sleep in your camper, your truck, the trunk of your car or in a sleeping bag on the ground but no tents in the paddock area, no cooking with charcoal, propane or natural gas only. If you want to pitch a tent, camp grounds only or like a friend did setting up his tent in the back of his pickup in the paddock. The second level has restrooms, showers, gas pumps, and electricity. You will need a standard 120v 20a plug or a 125V 30A TT-30P, or a 125/250V 50A 14-50P for the electrical stations on the West side second level..If you need power on the first level you have to get a converter box $$$$ and run you cable across the pit area ( a royal pain). If you blow a breaker you have to walk down the fence line to the gate back down to you plug and back out again not so bad if you have a pit bike. If I bring my bike which I do for Barber, I bring stands, ez-up, tire warmers, tool box extra this extra that....The ez-up is a great idea for storing your bike at night and in case it rains. Once you start the class you will be on the track or in class all day....but a nice cold one after a hard day under your ez-up is great...I hope this helps. Barber is an unbelievable venue and you will learn a great deal at CSS.. Thanks for the info Fossilfuel. I'll be getting there Friday afternoon if all goes well. I'll set up and EZ-Up drop off the bike and head to the Hotel for the night. Toph Go by and check to see if they will let you in earlier than 18:30? Maybe? I am going to do the same. Look me up. I will be towing a CBR1000RR and CBR600RR.

Hey Fossilfuel, did you find anything out about this. I'd be interested in setting up Friday as well. This will be my first class and am not quite sure how things work. Do we need to set up in the paddock? Should I bring an ez-up, stand, gas, tools etc. Topher56 Here is the deal......First of all don't try calling Barber or Zoom to find out anything.....Secondly, the way it works is you have to get to the office next to the gate to sign in between 18:30 and 21:00 on Friday to sign in and get a wrist band. Once you have a wrist band you can go in and out 24 hours a day if the same rules apply as do on track event weekends....If you are going to stay on the grounds, you can sleep in your camper, your truck, the trunk of your car or in a sleeping bag on the ground but no tents in the paddock area, no cooking with charcoal, propane or natural gas only. If you want to pitch a tent, camp grounds only or like a friend did setting up his tent in the back of his pickup in the paddock. The second level has restrooms, showers, gas pumps, and electricity. You will need a standard 120v 20a plug or a 125V 30A TT-30P, or a 125/250V 50A 14-50P for the electrical stations on the West side second level..If you need power on the first level you have to get a converter box $$$$ and run you cable across the pit area ( a royal pain). If you blow a breaker you have to walk down the fence line to the gate back down to you plug and back out again not so bad if you have a pit bike. If I bring my bike which I do for Barber, I bring stands, ez-up, tire warmers, tool box extra this extra that....The ez-up is a great idea for storing your bike at night and in case it rains. Once you start the class you will be on the track or in class all day....but a nice cold one after a hard day under your ez-up is great...I hope this helps. Barber is an unbelievable venue and you will learn a great deal at CSS..

Erm... pay no attention... Seriously Racer, It is great that you post as much as you do. You have been a great help. I am always glad to read your take on things......Keep it coming. You are the "Man behind the Avatar!"

You know it is funny that you mention that. I was reading some of Racer's post this morning and was wondering who Racer was. Its like the wizard in Oz!

I was wondering if I will be able to bring my gear in Friday evening for Saturday May 31 school at Barber. I would like to set up in the paddock.

Alright, I've never been to Barber, but, I pulled up their website and I am looking at an elevation drawing of the track that appears to include camber. (Man, that looks like a cool track!) So, my comments are based on what I can see in this drawing. We (you, me, my dog and CSS) have been discussing a fundamental skill applied to single turns in isolation (easiest way to communicate and grasp fundamental concept) ... as opposed to more advanced combinations of turns that require a slightly more complex approach. So, T13 looks like a dip with some camber as you approach T14 that appears to sweep uphill and due to the elevation change and camber could effectively create a continuous decreasing radius situation. Or perhaps what appears to be DR but effectively is CR or only mildly DR. Not sure what gear you are in or how fast or how much the hill affects acceleration, ie. how much speed do you actually gain up hill toward the crest at the transition to entry for 14a? Do you upshift on the hill? Do you need to brake or downshift for 14a? It looks like there is a lot of camber through there. I don't know if that is exaggerated on the track map or if that is to scale or what. So... it sounds like you are saying that you personally are able to simply maintain lean angle or lean it over a little more for 14a without picking it up to "reset" like a double apex? Apologies for my lack of track knowledge there. Can you give me more detailed info, ie. gear, rpm's, gear changes, braking, etc? racer I come over the tunnel in 4th gear and on the throttle through turn 13 apex....you are correct, on camber, uphill where the hill actually scrubs some speed...(I love this part of the track) I shift into third gear before the entrance of 14 and maintain smooth throttle through the turn....let me also say that my gearing is not right and I am in the process of changing this for the next track day. I need to go up a couple in the rear. There might be a slight lifting of the bike before the turn in point where I am shifting into third but not much at all. Since you have a map in hand, look at the apex of thirteen and draw a line to the turn in point of 14....I was thinking it might be possible to pick the bike up for the turn in point and flick it but it just seems like that is to much movement. Now if it were you or KC or a CSS instructor you might be so hot through thirteen that you have to actually stand the bike up and squeeze like holy hell to scrub enough speed off to enter 14... but i have watched multiple AMA races in person and playback dvr and don't see to many doing this at this part of the track.....

A-HA! Right. The faster you flick, the sooner you can get back on the gas and begin to accelerate and/or the less lean angle you can use so the more throttle you can apply throughout the corner AND/OR spend less time at max lean and begin the exit phase and hard throttle sooner. Especially important on a bigger bike that has lots of horsepower to put down! Let me say it again for my own benefit... Slow in... sacrifice a little speed for a faster flick = earlier throttle and higher corner speed AND/OR less lean and more throttle throughout the corner AND/OR less time at max lean and the sooner you can pick it up and whack it WFO! Hey, I think I'm starting to get it. All those years on little bikes got my head wired for turn entry and corner speed. Never really turned it around to think about how a quicker flick could affect my exit ... As usual Racer...a great response. The "quick flick" is STANDARD OPERATING PROCEDURE for CSS and should be for anyone looking to improve their lap times but.....I can give you one example where there might be opposing theories of approach, Barber turn 13? and 14? if you come down off the tunnel turn flat out, you are leaned over through the apex of 13 coming into 14 which is the turn at pit out. WHy should I try to pick the bike up for the entry of 14 to "flick" when I could stay at maximum lean angle for both....It seems to me if I am quick flicking in that corner before the last turn for the straight then I am not going fast enough? Is this true? or do I need further counciling from the "Cornering Master"?

OK, when I say "slow" in, it is a relative expression. I should say, slow enough to be well in control and the bike settled, hence, able to flick it faster which enables you to get back on the gas sooner as opposed to charging in, out of balance, running wide and having to wait while the bike settles before you can get back on the gas. The amount of throttle applied while leaned over is limited not only by how far you can twist your wrist or the rate at which the throttle can be opened at full lean to acheive 60/40 best balance for best traction, it is also limted by time (how long) on the throttle. How long you can be in the throttle is dictated by how soon you can get back on the gas. And, the fact is, if you are going too fast on the entry, you aren't able to get back on the throttle at the same point in the turn as someone who is a bit slower and able to flick it faster. Also, I think you should always be getting back in the gas before the apex and accelerating through the turn. I can't think of a turn where that isn't true. How do you define "apex"? racer What about looking at it from the standpoint of the shape of the turn? If you are coming into a combination turn such as a decreasing radius into a right hander. There is no point in getting exited coming into the first turn because it will screw up your line for the right hander? So wouldn't it be better to make sure you come into the d.r. turn slow enough so that you can drive out for the correct line of the r.h. In this case "Slow in - Fast out" ?

Quote "get the lowest overall time by cornering more slowly so we can get back on the gas earlier. It's always tempting to corner a little faster, but it frequently does not pay off in the context of the rest of the track." Brian Beckman PhD. Sometimes you can only go so fast in to some corners without screwing up your exit. That is why they have those corners, to test your patience. Make up the time somewhere else. I suggest reruns of Kung Fu.

I just wanted to say how great it was to see Misti and Josh at the Barber AMA event this weekend. There were a couple of us that had been to the school and both of us had Josh for an instructor at one level or another. It was fun sitting up on the hill of the back straight watching their progress through the race. I think Misti was recognized over the P.A. for being the only woman rider in the event. They were really gracious with their time and symbolize what a great group of instructors CSS has. I wish them the best in the future and will follow them for the rest of the AMA season. All the best.

Cobie, I do have GP shift and I do clutchless up shift. I have thought about the clutchless downshift since you mention it before in a thread. So you blip the throttle and between the higher rpm's of the blip and before the engine starts to act as a brake, you down shift? Does it make any difference whether you have a slipper clutch with clutchless upshift or downshift? Thanks.

You're right, there is a lot going on there. For sure we can work on this. A side question: do you use gp shift? I find it easier in general, and there specifically. C Cobie, I do have gp shift and look forward to the two days coming up May 31, Jun 1.

Someone mentioned the Alabama Roller Coaster at Barber. This one is very tuff for me. going down the straight at a good clip, down into turn 7, straighten the bike up for the curbing, brake for the curbing, down shift, off the seat over the curbing, down into the seat and drop it into the right hander. Very busy little corner for me. I would like to work on this one in May.

Racer, That was great.

Ah! Sorry, I never saw your reply back when you wrote this! Yes it would be great to carry more speed, but what does that mean? OK, so you are a MotoGP riding god with more talent in your little finger than the rest of us mere mortals have in our entire bodies put together. And your chief telemetry technician comes and tells you that you aren't using anything like all the grip your MotoGP front slick offers you in the corners. What to do? You you can try to turn ever faster, but there comes a point when your arms are moving as fast as humanly possible, and the bike is going from vertical to full lean as fast as a human can make it. Being a MotoGP riding god, you probably already reached this point. So what then if you still have lots of front grip in reserve? So then you can try and carry more corner speed. But at a certain point, you will be so far over on your ear that you will be about to ride off the edge of your MotoGP spec slick tyres and/or deck the footpegs etc, however much you shift your weight to try and reduce the lean angle. Again, you are probably already there. So what if even then you still have lots of front grip in reserve with your MotoGP front slick? Presumably some cheeky competitor will use that extra grip to ride under you before you turn and then use that spare grip to brake all the way to the apex while holding a similarly tight line, right in your way? So, is the answer (for our imaginary MotoGP riding god, not for us) to turn in at a higher speed than we otherwise would while quite hard on the brakes to make full use of all that spare grip? I only ask the question. But it would explain the observed effect... This has been a really interesting discussion and just wanted to make a comment. I have been doing track days for about 4 years now and feel that trail braking has made my transition from off the gas, on the brake and into the corner much smoother. I used to think it was an all or nothing proposition seeing what can happen if you loose the front. I feel like there is less force on the front (more balance between the front and rear). less stress on the arms and a better feel for body position when I know I can carry the braking into the corner.........smooth. I may be full of it but the bike seems to be more stable ( I am not wadded up on the front of the bike) and I feel more confident about controlling speed into the corner but then again I'm not racing. I am just having fun.

Hank, I sold my Harleys and did my first track day in '04 and have been addicted ever since. I am reaching the ripe old age of 53 next month so take it from me, you are never to old to become passionate about riding and doing track days. I keep getting better and better thanks to what I have learned at CSS. You just need to be in top physical condition to maintain good body position at my age. As for what is needed, I am sure some of the guy's will let you know. I for one recommend that you replace coolant with water wetter or another substitute just because water pumps and radiators and hoses seem to be the biggest source of clean up issues from incidents at the track. Remove your mirrors, disconnect your lights and tape them. Check your chain tension better lose than tight. Also as for as tires are concerned, I have never seen a 190/50/17 rear tire sold at any event I have ever been to. If you are running on 190's I suggest a 190/55/17. I ride a 1000cc and have run 180/55/17's, 190/55/17's and currently trying for the first time Dunlop's 195/70/17 (I like it). Good luck and welcome to the addiction

Hi Rick, I wish I could but due to working commitments I cant do july this year! I will hopefully manage one later this year! I have a couple of questions for you, hope you dont mind. do you intend doing all 4 levels eventually? also are you going to use your own bike when you go or hiring a school bike? if using your own bike are there hotels in the rockingham area with secure bike parking? I ask this as when I go I would preffer to use my own bike but i have no trailer or van so would be driving the bike down and staying for a few nights. I notice your local track is cadwell, I would love to do a track day there sometime, I love wacthing the bsb guys on tv jumping the mountain section there, it makes for really exiting racing cheers bobby Welcome. I highly, highly recommend doing all four levels of CSS. Make the commitment and finish all four levels. You will never regret it.

"Throttle control rule number two: in any fast entry turn, calculate the roll-off as carefully as you would a roll-on." (p.30) I have been focusing on turn in and will work on braking next time out. I had been worried about tucking the front so I was hesitant about trail braking into the corner. I watched the AMA races this weekend and paid close attention to the use of the brake in the turns. I can see to be fast, trail braking is a must. So I guess turn in and trail braking will be something I will have to work on.

That's exactly what I do. I remember "down three" or "down two", etc. In fact, if you asked me what gear I was in for a particular corner, I would probably have to stop and think about it and actually need to count through my shifts from memory starting at a reference like 6th gear at the end of the straight. Well, now I have a few things to work on in level 4....thanks

That's exactly what I do. I remember "down three" or "down two", etc. In fact, if you asked me what gear I was in for a particular corner, I would probably have to stop and think about it and actually need to count through my shifts from memory starting at a reference like 6th gear at the end of the straight. Yes and I should know that instead of guessing. I will be better prepared and have notes with information like what gear I am in for turns, reference points for braking and turn in to corners. I have learned a lot and hope to hear from you guys on new posts with other questions I have. See you on the next one.

That's exactly what I do. I remember "down three" or "down two", etc. In fact, if you asked me what gear I was in for a particular corner, I would probably have to stop and think about it and actually need to count through my shifts from memory starting at a reference like 6th gear at the end of the straight. Yes and I should know that instead of guessing. I will be better prepared and have notes with information like what gear I am in for turns, reference points for braking and turn in to corners. I have learned a lot and hope to hear from you guys on new posts with other questions I have. See you on the next one.

That's awesome! Glad to hear it! Thank you for sharing your data and results. When you say "less rebound", do you mean less rebound damping? I wonder if just using the new RP's, gear choice and braking technique would be enough without the damping changes. What "shifting issues" were you having? How do you like the new clutch? Racer, I increased rebound damping 2 clicks, not much but just enough to see if I could make a difference. I think the reference points also helped me to know that I am applying maximum braking before the ripples and coming off the brakes as I enter the ripples. The shifting issue was me just being an idiot and not knowing what gear I was in.....Just sometimes catching to low a gear and getting the bike upset going down hill into an off camber turn. The slipper clutch is Awesome....Awesome.....Awesome. The clutch slips just enough that I stay out of trouble on the down shifts. I have been working on the throttle blip but sometimes I have an instant between blip, clutch release and back on throttle that is now a non issue with the slipper clutch. I hope to get better at this. Thanks for your comments.

Racer, I no longer have the problem. I am sure that it was a combination of shifting to low and breaking to hard over ripples. I made a couple of changes to the bike, slipper clutch and less rebound on the forks. My changes were finding reference points for on and off the brakes that I could hit every time, smoother pressure on the lever and more speed into the corner. Thanks to everyone for the input. This helped me to do some self evaluation and put the tools from school to work.

Hi Guys, Just wanted to update this thread about the bounce I was getting. I had a two day at Barber this weekend and went out and worked on this corner. I think it was a combination of braking to hard and shifting into to low a gear. I started braking a little earlier, softer more even squeeze on the lever and carrying a more speed into the corner. I think this kept me from loading the front. I also bought a slipper clutch to help with the shifting issues. Thanks for the input.

I thought I would give it a good try and position my pegs at several different locations. First of all, I only have 4 square inches to work with and to make any other changes I would need to modify the brackets and that would be a major hassle. From a neutral position where the pegs are centered on the bracket, I only have one inch in any direction to make a change. This doesn't do much for my leg position in regards to getting better grip on the tank for turns. I tried every position and finally said "uncle". I know, I started the thread to begin with. What does work is sucking up closer to the tank so I think I will add a little padding to the back of the seat so I can still push with the outside leg. Thanks