pbrown

Throttle is totally closed until step 3 which is the bit that was confusing me as I had always been straight to full lean and on the throttle early. I guess not being at full lean gives you a few more options if your racing such as trail braking.

Wait, don't go AWAY, this is a really good discussion! It's definitely great to go back and read the book - I seem to pick up something new every time I do. But... it sounds like you've got this sorted out already, right? If your entry speed and turn-in point are good, and you can get right back on throttle once you've got it turned (so you've got the timing right), that only leaves one thing... so here is the exact thing to look up in the book - how MUCH should you roll on? What are you trying to accomplish with your roll on? Had a bit of a read and more of a think on what you've all said and what the racer was telling me. I think i've not really understood or explained what the racer told me which has made it a little confusing. So here goes. 1. Go into the corner at the same speed/place as now and no more than 2% faster. 2. Only lean to 90-95% for most of corner. 3. Dip to 100% of required lean angle prior to apex to ensure you hit the apex (distance before apex would vary depending on corner type) 4. Use knee as lean angle gauge and also as a point of timing. 5. As soon as knee touches the track get on the throttle smoothly and progressively all the way thru' the corner. 6. At the apex start picking the bike up while applying even more throttle. At point 3 is when I have finally finished turning and reached my maximum lean, I am getting on the throttle at this point and am therefore complying with 'as soon as possible'. point 5 agrees with throttle rule #1. Looking at it this way the racer is just giving me a point of timing for my roll on. The dip just prior to the apex does not seem to comply with only one turn input for the corner but does seem to tie in to the 'world plan' in the Soft Science book.

Bullet stated that we were entering the corner at roughly the same speed and turning in at the same point. I was then accelerating away from him from turn entrance to apex but because of my mid corner speed I couldn't get on the throttle as much as him on the exit. I got the same comments from the racer, I was entering the turn at an acceptable speed but running crazy mid corner speed which was stopping me getting on the gas. I will go away and read the book again, my perception of on the gas as soon as possible has always been as early in the corner as I possibly could. Not getting on the gas until just before the apex certainly makes the corner feel very slow but gives you loads of time to think on other things than max lean.

A very interesting and topical post. I bumped into Bullet a couple of months ago at a TD, he caught me then passed me on the straight at Donnington. I've always had people pass me on the straights so kinda knew I had a problem. Well back in the garages and he came over and told me I was rushing the corner. I have tried to correct this by not getting on the gas as much as before. Last month I had a bit of tuition off a racer. Still the same problem, rushing the corner. His take on it was that I was on the gas far too early which had me running lots of lean angle, high mid corner speed and no chance of picking the bike up/getting on the gas without running off the track. His suggestion was to stay off the gas until the apex or just before, then apply the throttle while picking the bike up. I couldn't believe how long he expected me to stay off the gas. Seems like my idea of 'on the throttle as soon as possible after you've turned' might have been a little early.

Hi mate, I think it's going to be at Silverstone South, I heard probably on the dates in August. As you'll see it's not fully confirmed, but if you ring into the office, I expect they'll be able to confirm. I asked Andy I when I saw him about it a few weeks back now and he suggested that would be the case. Sorry it's not firm for you, but I defo understand it will be at Silverstone South circuit, not anywhere else in the UK. Bullet Thanks Bullet. Silverstone south would be a different circuit so that would be OK. More concerned with the mid week aspect of it though. I've already booked for L3 so was looking to do L4 at the camp. What would be the difference between doing the 2 day camp & doing 2 normal school days?Paul Biggest differences of camp are the exclusivity of it, Student to Coach ratio is 2 - 1, instead of 3 -1 , there are 6 sessions per day (UK), rather than 5, and the sessions are all 30 mins long too. There are also only 16 students on track at once, as opposed to the usual 21, everyone also gets Video bike analysis of their riding regardless of level, which is only usually available for level 4 students. Essentially you get more of everything, it's intense, but very good. You could definitely do 2 days of level 4 if you wanted to do on the Camp no problem at all. Hope that answers your question? Bullet Do you do the slide bike at the UK camp? Normally in a camp though, it's almost impossible to do, as your either in class, or on track, there is no slack in schedule inbetween essentially. We've been unable to do slidebike in UK in 2009 due to circuits charging more for area to run it in. I'm unsure whether this aspect has changed or not, but expect not. You would need to ask the office mate, whether that's going to happen or not. Bullet So how do you teach us to slide the back like the pro's without the slidebike? This could be detrimental to my career development - if I had one to develop. Maybe it will have to be a trip to Laguna Seca.

Hi mate, I think it's going to be at Silverstone South, I heard probably on the dates in August. As you'll see it's not fully confirmed, but if you ring into the office, I expect they'll be able to confirm. I asked Andy I when I saw him about it a few weeks back now and he suggested that would be the case. Sorry it's not firm for you, but I defo understand it will be at Silverstone South circuit, not anywhere else in the UK. Bullet Thanks Bullet. Silverstone south would be a different circuit so that would be OK. More concerned with the mid week aspect of it though. I've already booked for L3 so was looking to do L4 at the camp. What would be the difference between doing the 2 day camp & doing 2 normal school days?Paul Biggest differences of camp are the exclusivity of it, Student to Coach ratio is 2 - 1, instead of 3 -1 , there are 6 sessions per day (UK), rather than 5, and the sessions are all 30 mins long too. There are also only 16 students on track at once, as opposed to the usual 21, everyone also gets Video bike analysis of their riding regardless of level, which is only usually available for level 4 students. Essentially you get more of everything, it's intense, but very good. You could definitely do 2 days of level 4 if you wanted to do on the Camp no problem at all. Hope that answers your question? Bullet Do you do the slide bike at the UK camp?

Hi mate, I think it's going to be at Silverstone South, I heard probably on the dates in August. As you'll see it's not fully confirmed, but if you ring into the office, I expect they'll be able to confirm. I asked Andy I when I saw him about it a few weeks back now and he suggested that would be the case. Sorry it's not firm for you, but I defo understand it will be at Silverstone South circuit, not anywhere else in the UK. Bullet Thanks Bullet. Silverstone south would be a different circuit so that would be OK. More concerned with the mid week aspect of it though. I've already booked for L3 so was looking to do L4 at the camp. What would be the difference between doing the 2 day camp & doing 2 normal school days?Paul

I was thinking of the club circuit as the short one but I suppose it could also be woodlands. I don't recall the names, but when i was last there (2002?), we didn't use the mountain or what i assume is the woodllands--run off is an issue, there was little in a few spots. CF Yeh, Mountain/woodlands section is the bit with very little run off Cobie. Bullet, Is there any more info on the 2 day UK camp yet?

Not sure I understand the Q. I only skim read the book maybe I need to reread it to understand what your asking.

I was thinking of the club circuit as the short one but I suppose it could also be woodlands.

Back to this one again. I thought you had already modified the wide in wide out plan by turning later in the corner?

I thought cornering on the limit boiled down to physics. On the limit for a given tyre/weight/track you only have a certain amount of friction keeping the tyre from sliding. Turning creates a slip angle which uses up some of the available friction so on the limits of turning all the available friction would be taken up with turning. If you are braking as well as turning then the braking is taking up some of the available friction so there is less friction available for turning. You therefore need to be going slower or the tyre is sliding. the tyre is not sliding because youve riden off the edge of it but purely because youve gone beyond the friction level of the tyre. If the bike slows enough & the rider is good enough then he has probably just gone slightly wide & a bit slower than he wanted. Physics is physics & doesn't change. Whether any of us mere mortals can get to the real limits of friction in a controled manner is a different thing. Stand back and get ready to be flamed.

Well you say without the expense... But, unfortunately, Oulton especially is very expensive to hire, Cadwell isn't much cheaper either. they're both MSV/Palmersport owned circuit's lest we not forget, so I doubt you'd be looking much less cost than Brands hatch for a day. Bullet Bullet the expense I was alluding to was the private hire of 1 CSS instructor + bike hire + 2x trackday tickets that would be required for personal tuition at Cadwell. I agree that you need a track that is small enough so that a reasonable number of laps can be done although I wouldn't grumble at a smaller version of cadwell without the mountain & hairpin. Stowe probably suits me for my tuition as it's the slower corners that I seem to find problems with. Oulton 3:30 - 4:00 with no brakes & 1 gear - who are you kidding, thats what I do flat out I could be very very interested in a 2 day UK camp especially if it was at Oulton. Paul

I should have known that there wouldn't be any northern tracks being used. Whats wrong with circuits like Cadwell or Oulton, then I could have my problem areas sorted on the tracks I ride & that would be closer to personal tuition without the expense . It'll have to be Stowe again for L3.

Yeap. legs, legs, and more legs.. :-) Bullet Shame Mr. Code hasn't come up with a new way to move about the bike while hanging off the bars so I can save my legs. I better get started on the training now.