Jaybird180

@Dylan CodeDid he give you any starting street pressures?

I used Silkolene fork oil when I built my Fireblade.

What was the previous fleet brand oil? Do you supply engine wear data to the sponsors or bike manufacturers? I suppose from all the years of running Kwaks and now BMW you have tons of engine wear data.

I've used them happily in my BMW automobiles for years. Now this is just unfair...to tease us with THIS type of information!

Did I see a rickshaw or 2 on the Indian video?😂

I have a wall photo in my home office taken during one of my CSS school days at ViR. It's nicely framed and in a place where I look at it frequently as I telework. The photo has me followed by two other riders as I'm nearing the inside edge of a right turning corner about 1-1/2 meters away. I can see the greenery in the background but it's blurred in the distance. Our heads are turned and it appears we are all looking somewhere near the same point. It's possible that being in the front, I might have begun to look toward the corner exit as my vision is slightly elevated relative to the following rider. We are all wearing dark or mirrored shields, so I cannot see any eyes. The bikes are leaned over in successive amounts and our knees are out. I think I'm aiming the bike at the apex. I can see that neither of us are trailing the brakes and two of us appear relaxed and in a stable body position based upon front zipper alignment and head/shoulder direction. It didn't dawn on me until writing this post, how uncomfortable the second rider looks. It also looks like the camera added 25lbs to my stature, but that's not pertinent to riding technique (or is it???). I can see the position of our toes on the pegs...and the uncomfortable rider's foot position makes it look like he might be supporting his weight in his hip, sorta scrunched up. Being in the front, I have more fork extension than the 2nd rider. We're both on Black BMW school bikes, and based on that I ascertain that I'm on the gas more and both our right wrists are straight and aligned to the elbow. I can't see the 3rd rider's forks on his red and white GSXR, but his wrist is bent, indicating that he intends to roll his hand and leave his elbow behind. I can see significant daylight in the area formed by the back of his knee, the bike and his butt- he's hanging off a lot. I also think he might be a 1/2 nanosecond late on his 3-step vision because although he has some distance before he arrives where we are, his helmet doesn't appear to be pointed as deep into the corner as we are. How well did I do describing the photo? Are you able to see it in your mind's eye? Did I miss any important bits that are in every photo? What other information can be learned by observing a photo? Next person to play the game: Describe a Moto pic and the technical information about the rider's technique.

Perhaps you should consider racing. When I get Open track time, that is for me to work on a skill, I couldn’t care less when I’m using that time to work on that skill because I purposely back it down to 70% and then gradually turn up the wick. I felt like you before I started racing. I’m still slow and have no delusions about my skill, but racing has given me a better barometer and takes my mind off the technicals of riding and it becomes just about chasing the guy in front or keeping the guy, who’s intake I can now hear behind me. Keep doing that for X number of laps and the race is over. It’s always gratifying to beat the guy who last beat you or a higher classed machine.

SPOILER ALERT: KC mentions 2 news sponsors: A helmet sponsor and something else that I can't make out (must be that California accent- LoL)....what did he say?

Yes! Yes! You’re right! Thank you. Wrong technique.

@Cobie Fair IIRC when I did L3 and we did Pivot Steering, I tried it at a 2 turn section that can be run as a double apex turn using PS in the second portion. As I recall, we didn't add a second steering input but instead changed the body position to alter the steering geometry.

I have to second this. I got into Minimoto in 2018 and it's now my primary consideration for riding. I get a lot of enjoyment out of it and it's the best bang for buck going. Most of the bikes are inexpensive and nearly unbreakable, speeds are lower so if you do take a spill there's lower risk or severity of injury, maintenance is simple (though you end up doing some simple tasks more often) and the fun quotient is really high. Another factor is that they really highlight areas for needed skill improvement especially when a 9-13yo blasts by you on a similar or lower classed machine.

This is my only option on my minimoto. I think Supermoto riders have the same issue.

I like that accordion discussion.

The net gain in resolving this would be saved attention. If it doesn't matter where the rider locks on during braking then it's one less thing to "correct". If it were practical, the rider could stiffen during braking then relax when making the steering input. There might be some lost "cool points" for style, but who cares if it gets the rider progressively closer to the podium, right? This rider would also need to understand that some ability for the bike to correct for surface imperfections in the braking zone will be sacrificed if using this technique. I also think it explains the Leg Dangle. I agree that the rider CoM is moved to the inside of the corner.

I'll agree to the stipulation if we agree that a stoppie is by definition a condition where the rear tire is not supporting any weight. I think you're saying that the rider has the ability to change the fulcrum of the point of rotation and that this action of having more mass further from the fulcrum creates more inertia for fork compression. As kinematic theory I believe it would produce the desired conclusion. I believe that it fails in practice because (taking the extreme example) your rider can't alter her mass to be centered in her head anymore than she can focus it at her feet. It goes back to the discussion where a student asked if the rider weight should be on the pegs or seat during a turn and Dylan in summation said to put the weight in the seat for the simple reason of physical exertion, but to the bike it didn't matter. I'd imagine that if we did see a net gain, riders would no longer sit upright for straight line braking to get the aero braking effect. For the purposes of this discussion, can we leave handling issues aside? I think it's universally agreed (???) that relaxed arms are in better control of steering and decoupling road induced oscillations that could happen if the rider were stiff and the bike needed to self-correct. If you could slow from 200mph to 100mph, assuming same brake on/off points on Brand X but can't do it on a BMW using the tank only, then we're getting into ergonomic and possibly aerodynamic engineering. May I suggest this is also outside the scope of the discussion at this point and may distract from getting an answer. Yes, CoG may lie outside the body when the body is in certain positions or planes of motion with limbs away from the upright, resting CoM.

Shameless Confession: I've never done a stoppie and only small wheelies or big ones unintentionally so this answer is based on observation sans competent experience. In a wheelie, there's timing associated with the rider shifting rearward (and in some cases to cause the front suspension to rebound) and excess thrust brings the wheel up. A stoppie is excess braking and a rider timed movement to spring the rear shock. I've observed both being executed at various speeds. I should have said that vertical position of CoM wouldn't be the differentiating factor for fork travel under braking. I think it matters for a stoppie and maybe (???) for a wheelie. I've ridden the brake bike at the school. The intention of that drill is different. The goal of the brake bike drill is to practice getting the braking to the edge of a skid or over the edge, experience it and get comfortable being there and practice the recovery in a safe manner. It skids when the Coefficient of Friction between the pavement and tire is exceeded. I don't think this would be useful for this purpose. In order to use your practical exercise to find the answer to the question, we have to ensure that all parameters are same and only change rider brace point. I already have a fork travel indicator installed on my forks; it's a little ring but not the same type of material as a zip-tie but with the same purpose and it works. I could then setup cones in a flat section of pavement for start and stop points and try my best to make speed consistent across several runs and then take the measurement. I could take all of the preload and compression damping off the forks to exacerbate the fork dive and increase the rebound damping to aid consistency; might be sketchy from a safety standpoint. I'd then dismount the machine, measure and record fork travel, reset and repeat. This only requires slightly less discipline than finding how many licks it takes to get to the center of a Tootsie Roll Tootsie Pop. It's possible, but I doubt its practicality. But being game, I reached out to a friend and asked if he'd help run a motorcycle experiment (no details given) and he said "Maybe?", which is exceedingly funny to me, knowing this friend. ...And after giving him the details, he agreed to help. It's too bad that we have to wait for weather to cooperate. It's cold and wet here. In logic, the conclusion flows directly from premises of a statement. The truth of the premise is not considered in evaluating the structure of statements. According to logic, it is presumed to result in a correct conclusion which is a flaw in classical logic. In the red and blue statements above I've added color, italics and bold to indicate where I see premise, conclusion and rationale. The conclusion could actually be true, but we must stipulate the premise as true. This thread is about evaluating this very premise considering we have each in our own ways observed this apparent behavior. I think we are guilty of observational error. I agree that you correctly transliterated my OP.

Firstly let me say that I recognize that you’re helping me work this out. On my own, I haven’t been able to crucible this to ground truth. So your contributions are invaluable. In my experience, whenever I’ve locked on using the tank my braking distance has been improved, controllability and everything I’d want is in-fact better. However, I don’t think I, nor 99.9% of the riding population for that matter have the ability or the tools to get repeatable performance or accurate enough measurements to prove either premise. I also don’t have the ability to program computer simulations to see how changing rider structural point makes a difference, similar to pressing weight on a foot peg to change a line; makes no real effect despite repeated claims to the contrary. According to my Physics lessons, Newton did not observe center of mass to be mathematically relevant to acceleration (F= MA). As a believer in Newtonian physics, that’s all I have as a stable datum to rely upon. Eliminating the above, the remaining choices leads me to believe that most likely we’re dealing with observational error. I don’t know why lock on is better, but if I had to guess, I’d have to say that it’s due to body mechanics, that and having the right amount of input to begin with to allow the bike to self-correct (rake/trail geometry). If I’m right on this then it means previously I’ve been investing attention unwisely when instead it should have been spent on getting the bike to the right speed (remember: “lately” I’d been riding a bike that doesn’t have tank shrouds wide enough to lock in, and it had been a source of concern) and getting setup for the corner.

Let's talk about why I asked the question. Re-reading some threads where we discuss attachment points, I saw consistently that it was a subject of contention. Opinions are all over the place in various internet venues, but they tend to be reigned-in here, which sometimes has the unfortunate side-effect of not allowing incorrect observations to be voiced. Cobie began to address my question but did so by mixing two separate issues that I didn't do enough of a job to confine. Cobie explored: 1- the geometry change from deceleration and 2- the rider's relative level of control with each technique. Separate things, but important to note. I read one place where (I believe KC) said, consistent cornering come from a consistent position on the bike. It sounds like something Mr. Code would say, and whoever said it, I agree with it and it makes sense to me (two separate things). I've been led to believe that locking the arms during braking could cause the steering to sharpen too much as a result of deeper fork compression. After thinking about it the night before my OP, I beg to differ. I think, controllability and consistency concerns aside the braking forces and consequently the geometry changes would be the same in either scenario. The simple reason is that if the deceleration is the same, the amount of force on the front tire producing the deceleration would also be equivalent. I asked the question the way I did, while not a pure troll post, I was hoping to get 2 camps on either side of the discussion so I could test my above idea with no risk of being wrong. Now that I've outted myself, I'm fully prepared to be shown wrong.

Has the rider’s mass been altered? Please, no suppositions about the squid who misses the braking point and involuntarily alters his suit’s mass. 😂

If it were possible to enter the same heavy braking area at the same speed and same braking pressure but only using different stability technique, which produces more fork travel and why: The rider locks his arms and uses his hands to stay on the bike The rider locks his knees on the tank and doesn't lock his arms but the arms are fully extended

Here's the thread

To summarize: You had 2 bikes that would run wide on the throttle You change tires on 1 bike and liked the results Now neither bike runs wide, despite no changes to the other machine Your question is: what caused the change? Do I understand correctly?

There might be a related nugget here

Let's see.... I've always wanted to ride Laguna Seca I contemplated a camp for 2020 ......hmmm

I found the other 2 videos entertaining but the first was an example based on sound and camera angle of how much he is on the throttle post apex. It even seemed that during one of those corners it wasn’t a roll-on but that the power instantly went to full and the engine was willing to rev that easily. I know I don’t have the resources to toss into a WSBK motor to be able to do that or able to exploit such equipment but I can take an example from his technique to get a sense of what is possible; I tend to be unwilling to accelerate that hard.