DucPati
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Posts posted by DucPati
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MX tracks have much tighter turns than a racetrack, at much lower speeds. Due to the lack of traction, you often steer by sliding the rear. It is easiest to control those slides with all your weight over the front - if your weight is over the rear, that’s a lot of extra momentum being thrown sideways. With your weight over the front the rear can slide around all it like without you worrying about a high side. So the standard riding position is: if standing, chest is literally directly over the handlebars (there are some exceptions, like soft sand, where your weight is as far back as possible); if sitting (usually only while cornering), sitting as far forward as possible, even on the tank, again with the chest over or nearly over the bars.
How do you propose to hang off the inside of the bike for corners like this photo with deep ruts?
Watch this and see if you can find any point where hanging off the inside of the bike would be beneficial:
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Riding on the road is all about recognising and anticipating hazards, and managing those hazards. You can measure improvement by your ability to navigate those hazards faster, with less panic, or a combination of both. The vast majority of riding skills are applicable to both road and track. On the road you are just using them for hazard management.
On the track primarily you measure improvement by your lap times. Not just fastest lap, but consistency in your lap times. Also good lap times while getting through traffic - being able to get past slower riders without being held up is not just an improvement in your riding, it allows you more track time to focus on improving more since your aren’t stuck at someone else’s pace for an extended period of time.
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On 12/26/2017 at 11:33 AM, Hotfoot said:
The guy on the Ducati would really benefit from CSS Level 3, check out his transitions across the bike (and how the bike reacts) and his lock on, how secure does his lower body look?
Has stomp grip on the tank, apparently doesn't know what it's there for - his outside foot wasn't even on the peg, and that was before he went off road. After watching a few more times, looks like the slip off the peg is what caused him to go off road. May have been preceded by target fixation on the sign, but hard to tell for sure from that video.
Anyone also notice that he put the front brake on, and kept it on until he was thrown in the air, and then back on again when he came down onto the bike again? Either he has a very light touch (it was only one finger on the brake by the looks of it), or ABS saved his butt.
Regarding Ducatis and locking on - because they are narrower around the tank it can be difficult to get a good lock on the way it's taught in lvl3 (in my experience on my 1098S anyway). Different rearsets would probably help. I have had my outside foot come off the peg in a left hander at ~200-220kmh while knee down, but I had a pretty solid grip with my leg/knee and it didn't upset me at all or seem to make any difference to the laptime.
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On 12/26/2017 at 10:24 AM, Jaybird180 said:
The guy on the naked bike (Aprilia maybe?) was on the rear brake on corner entry and it looked like the slide there was intentional.
Yeah he was definitely backing it in on purpose. That could also have been from engine braking rather than rear brake.
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4 hours ago, Jaybird180 said:
That's the point where you've made it clear.
That's what I meant when I said you weren't going fast enough
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54 minutes ago, Jaybird180 said:
I had a day many years ago of trying to spin up the rear at full lean. I wasn't able to get the tire to break traction. In hindsight, I may have been in too high a gear, though it seemed right for the drive out of the turn once the bike was vertical.
You weren't going fast enough then
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On 12/19/2017 at 6:05 AM, Jaybird180 said:
Wish I could find some footage. I don't think it was dragging elbows as he's (Marc Marquez) known for but yet still significant. In the OP I linked to a request from Cobie to find footage of Schwantz doing similar. His recollection was 35-40 degrees.
35-40 degrees is nowhere near max lean angle. MM93 is getting 67 degrees of lean angle - I find it very difficult to believe you could wheelie under power at that lean angle as most of the power is being applied laterally. If you tried you would be at high risk for a highside IMO
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On 12/19/2017 at 6:03 AM, Jaybird180 said:
Secondly, Speed through a turn DOES NOT (by itself) make a turning limitation. Controversial, I know....
It sure does - I can scrape the pegs doing a full lock U-turn or circles in first gear. You cannot do a full lock turn at 200kmh, and certainly not around a traffic cone like I can in a carpark.
On 12/19/2017 at 6:03 AM, Jaybird180 said:@LnewqbanI'm just asking the question: if tire traction is stable, and we take the same line, same entry speed, get on the gas at the same point but instead roll it harder, sufficiently enough to lift the front will we have gained a better result. I think, yes. And if this is true, why do we need to be concerned with limiting our roll on while respecting tire traction limitations?
"A better result"? Does that mean lower lap times?
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7 hours ago, Jaybird180 said:
This is pure speculation but I'd imagine that the front wheel begins to lift at a point well above 60% weight distribution. But if you could instead find a balance point where all of the power being used it for propulsion than lifting the front wheel, where would that be in relation to the ideal 60%?
Remember that the 60% is not exact, the ideal weight distribution depends on the bike and also the tyres.
I don't know the answer for sure, but logic suggests that if the front wheel is not lifting all the power is going into forward motion (minus power train losses, and anything wasted by rear suspension movement). So even if the front is off the ground, but is not lifting or dropping, all the power is going into forward motion.
My observations while at the track seem to support this - an RSV4 had overtaken me before the chicane going onto the start/finish straight and just after that chicane is a crest which most bikes will wheelie over. I had tucked in behind the RSV4 on my 1098 and he wheelied while I didn't, which allowed me to pull alongside. Not sure whether this was rider skill or wheelie control but the front wheel of the RSV4 then hovered at a consistent height and the RSV4 was able to pull away. Of course it has a lot more power than my 1098 anyway so that's a factor too (he may have been wasting power and still have enough to pull away). But that particular rider is a nutcase so there's that factor too
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When you start wheelying some of your power is lifting the front wheel, instead of being translated into forward motion (speed). So if you are interested in lap times, you want all of the power you are requesting with the throttle to go into forward motion when exiting a corner rather than lifting the front wheel. If you are also interested in enjoying yourself you don't mind the wheelies coz they are great fun
The most obvious demonstration of this wasted power is race starts where a rider who wheelies immediately loses tenths to those who are not. From my own experience, the time lost when doing some wheelies on corner exit is negligible and you can ride it out with the front wheel at a consistent height off the ground until the next gear change, which often puts the front wheel back down. One thing to note is that it's easy to have the front wheel turned when it touches down again if you wheelie while leaned over. There are few things more satisfying than wheelying out of a corner while leaned over, touching down with the front wheel turned slightly, but keeping it pinned, relaxing your arms on the bars and riding it out without having a massive tank slapper. On the dirt bike you can even do this while the rear wheel is spinning and roosting the rider behind you. Especially if that rider is your mate with whom you've been having a roosting war for years -
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6 hours ago, Jaybird180 said:
Here's a related article I read yesterday
http://www.motorcycle.com/features/Marc-marquez-crazy-save-motogp-sepang-2017
Article not required, I think we’ve all watched that video 100 times lol
I think it was either Rainey or Schwantz who was interviewed way back and said they save a crash with their knee about twice a lap. So not a new use for knee sliders, but Marc Marquez’ saves are spectacular and on another level!
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On 31/10/2017 at 7:25 AM, mugget said:
Not using my knee sliders, my thoughts on maximum lean angle and gauging surface traction are that it can be done simply by paying attention to feedback from the tyres and adjusting my riding based on this. For example if I was using more lean angle than usual and noticed increased sliding at maximum lean I'd take that to mean that it's pretty close to the maximum lean angle the tyres can take.
Does sliding tyres mean you are at max lean angle, or max lean angle for the speed you are doing?
On 31/10/2017 at 7:25 AM, mugget said:My exhaust (M4 GP) is the most likely part to scrape (already has) and I have rearsets, so there isn't really a risk of dragging hard parts, so the way I see it using the knee slider for that reason just isn't worth it for me.
I would consider the exhaust a hard part and you can certainly risk crashing if you keep leaning over when it touches down. So I would say your max lean angle is when that exhaust touches down. If you think it would be a distraction then sure, don’t do it. It’s just a tool and it’s your choice to use it or not. Many riders think knee down itself is a goal (and that’s ok), but it doesn’t mean you are fast or an awesome rider. I have video of me getting knee down in a car park doing figure 8’s in first gear
I did that to demonstrate that getting the knee down doesn’t mean you are fast
On 31/10/2017 at 7:25 AM, mugget said:I'm happy with the way my riding is progressing, I don't feel like I'm missing out on anything not using sliders but it just made me think if there's any other way I could or should be using them after seeing that post from Dave Moss...
It’s great that you are happy with your progress, I can definitely relate to that! You’re not missing out. I’ve never saved a crash using my sliders but I do think that’s a good use for them if you ever need it and can pull it off.
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On 9/13/2017 at 12:40 PM, mugget said:
So I wonder how I can use knee sliders as a tool in my current riding level and style? Or does it's use as a tool really only come into play when heavy trail braking is involved?
You also mentioned maximum lean angle in your post. How do you know when you are at maximum lean angle? I use the knee as a lean angle sensor, but also the peg/toe sliders. I don't have adjustable rearsets so my max lean angle is when the pegs touch down. Any further and I'm at risk of crashing. So I use the knee to gauge when I'm getting close to touching down the pegs. Currently I don't need to use max lean angle much as there are more gains for me in other areas, but I touch the knee down often and when I do I'm not digging it in like many riders I've seen who go through a lot of sliders. You obviously ride at Lakeside with the times you've mentioned. I mostly go to Morgan Park and am sitting at 1:23 where the fastest in group 1 are doing ~1:20, sometimes down to 1:18.
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On 24/10/2017 at 11:27 PM, Jaybird180 said:
Good luck on the all-Duc day.
Classic quote for the day “never seen so many bikes not start at the same time”
Did a full session at 1:23 pace so pretty happy, that’s another second quicker.
Vid of that session:
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On 24/10/2017 at 11:27 PM, Jaybird180 said:
That rises suspiciously close to fraud. Tampering with an odometer is a Federal Crime in the US
I don’t think it was tampered with per se. For starters it was crashed early in its life and written off. In the state it was written off the law makes it such that it can never be registered again without replacing the frame. So it was converted to a track/race bike. I suspect it had a race dash and ECU on it, which was then swapped back prior to being sold to the guy I bought it from.
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10 hours ago, Jaybird180 said:
Sorry to hear that your "Duck" let you down. Your progress and goals sound amazing!
When I bought it, it had 1100km on the dash. It's a 2008 model. I was suspicious of the km on the dash from the start and my suspicions have been confirmed - gearbox let go earlier in the year and my mech (who is well known as one of the best Ducati mechs in this area) said it definitely has done more than 1100km. When I replaced the fuel pump, I found it's not the original and the flange has been damaged. So I'm not blaming the Duc for letting me down as it's clearly been raced and had a hard life. I expected there might be some gremlins. It's not as easy to ride fast as an S1000RR but it's way more enjoyable
So I head back there on Saturday for an all Ducati track day. Let's see how I go. I have a new one piece suit and gloves, should be worth another 2 seconds
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On 10/20/2017 at 2:21 AM, Jaybird180 said:
I'm planning to ride dirtbikes with my son today so I can sample some of the reduced traction you speak about. Ciao!
I hope you know about this game called "Roost your mates"! It's compulsory when riding in the dirt and helps you get comfortable spinning the rear
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On 10/20/2017 at 12:40 AM, rchase said:
A couple of other things to be cautious about.
1. Puddles. Not only because of the hydroplaning potential.
When I did lvl1, it rained at the end of the day, for the last session. Lots of people stayed in the pits, but like you I actually like riding in the rain. I was on my Multistrada, traction control still enabled but I have it one level more intrusive than the track setting (the manual says the track setting won't save you). Here's what happened coming onto the start/finish straight (and yes I intentionally provoked it, I often do in the rain
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https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ijEUD_QcjvY
It was red flagged that lap due to the water not draining off the track. I was using Metzeler K3's which are in the wet. Normally run M7RR which are great in the wet.
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How did MY weekend go? I bought a track bike in January, did CSS Lvl 3 on it in May. I could have done Lvl4 in May or Aug without having to travel but I had decided to spend more time at the track to work on getting faster. You posted this on Oct 6th, which would have been the 7th where I am and that day I went to the track again. 5th time at this track, a ~3km circuit called Morgan Park Raceway in Queensland, Australia. I ride in the fast group at the local track days. Previous outing I had taken 3 seconds off my PB on a rear tyre that was well past it's useful life and sliding around a lot. It had been 2 months since then on the 7th and I went out first session with a fresh rear tyre and set a PB on the 3rd lap. By the 3rd session I had taken over a second off my PB from the previous outing and was looking like I would get to my target lap time in the 4th session. Bike had other ideas though, the fuel pump died and I didn't get another session in that day. While that was disappointing, it was a very successful outing and I left pretty happy. My target was 1:23 and I had done a 1:24.3. The fastest guys at track days and local club racing are doing 1:20 and sometimes 1:18/1:19. A few people were asking me which class I race in. I don't.
Australian Superbike record there is 1:13. I'm now aiming for 1:20 but I need some suspension work as the springs are too soft for my weight and a fork seal was leaking.
Pro photographer was there and got some great photos. Here's one at one my favorite corners, an uphill blind left hander under a bridge with a cement wall on the inside.
I have video too, I always run a front and rear camera - https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=mFI0X_M5Zh4&list=PL2qr50jc8pAUK5w0NZafcl5tFNOXGZC3e
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Dirt vs Asphalt riding styles and technique
in Cornering and Techniques
Posted
Just for a laugh, here’s how the amateurs (like me) do it. Five days later on New Year’s Day I over jumped a table top (on the same track), bottomed the rear suspension (I think the frame may have even hit the ground) and fractured my ankle, so am in a moon boot for another week or so. I did ride it out though, so it doesn’t count as a crash