Hotfoot
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Posts posted by Hotfoot
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If I keep my current ride, I may look into a throttle for the same reason as you HOTFOOT. I'd heard about people making them themselves. Doesn't seem that difficult to change the cam size. Have you looked into that option?
I've seen some forum posts with instructions to make one from PVC. It doesn't look that difficult to do, but I don't quite have the nerve to try it; my hope was that I could buy a kit, have a mechanic install it correctly, and not have to worry about the reliability.
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If you could improve one aspect your riding, what do you think would make the biggest difference?
Try to be specific, “if I could be smoother, faster etc”… is a real easy answer but it doesn’t really say much. What one thing would take your riding to the next level?
A bigger paycheck! So I could do endless track time and make dozens of cool modifications to my bike!
OK, you probably want a better answer than that... how about absolute certainty that my entry speed was right for each turn, and knowing exactly where to brake / roll off point to accomplish that. Better yet to be able to do it without specific reference points so I could do it on a new track or new road.
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YoYoDyne
"All CNC machined in aluminum, the new push-pull throttle kit is a required accessory for racers that want only the best for their motorcycle. Thanks to the ability to change the cams inside that modify the speed of the push-pull throttle, everybody can find the right combination of speed and control. The new design with bigger rotors can be installed on each bike with any problems with the 2 cables that are include in the kit that fit. The push-pull throttle kit can be installed with Run/Stop-Start switch for bikes that originally come with this control integrated in the throttle housing."
Thanks for the info, bet Hotfoot would have liked to know that sooner, had nothing but problems with the one purchased, finally took it off.
C
Thanks for posting this, I appreciate the recommendation, however unfortunately the Yoyodyne IS the one I had, and I had trouble with it. One problem was that the set screws fell out so the throttle body was slipping, and the set screws were VERY tiny and a weird size. Will actually MADE a tool to put them back in for me. Then it was still not operating smoothly and we found a place where it was rubbing and hanging up, and then ultimately took it off, and at that point found that one of the pieces of hardware in the cable had snapped in half. So, I'm not saying they don't work - they seem very popular, so they probably do, but it didn't go well for me. FYI, the reason I wanted a 1/4 turn throttle was to reduce the amount I have to turn to full open, my wrist was getting sore.
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I have a 2008 ZX6R with Shogun no-cut frame sliders. I need a replacement puck for one side (didn't crash... it fell off) and I can't find one, any idea where to get one? Or know of another brand that would be compatible? Or does anyone have contact info for Shogun? I did a web search but couldn't find the correct manufacturer site. I don't really want to buy a whole new kit, if I can avoid it.
(Hey Cobie, if we had an "equipment" area, I would have posted this question there.
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I agree that a separate equipment section would be nice, and a pinned topic that lists what the school uses for equipment (bike stuff and riding gear), and info on bike mods, bike setup, tires and tire pressures, for the school bikes and the coach bikes. And some notes about what works well for you and why. That stuff is interesting because you guys put on so many miles in so many different types of conditions, with so many different people, that you get a terrific perspective on what works or doesn't.
Just one request, I'd prefer NOT to have a section where everyone gets to list or show off all the mods on their bikes, there is too much of that on other forums already - I think folks on this forum are here to ride their bikes, not decorate them.
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I love this article, it completely captures the difference between a wonderful ride and a tedious, frightening, or disappointing ride.
For me, the best ride, the perfect ride, is when I can find that joyous excitement, the special thrill of feeling the bike skimming over the pavement, and seeing the track flowing swiftly by. There is a disassociation from concerns about "how I'm riding" or who is behind me or what I should change, it's all sensation and it seems like the controlling of the bike becomes nearly effortless.
For me, a really terrific fast turn feels like sledding down a steep snowbank, or swinging too high on the swingset; I've committed to the turn and now I'm just enjoying the ride, and seeing how fast I can go! There's a certain death-defying feeling to it, which makes it thrilling; and a certain perfection, when it all comes together exactly right.
When I can capture that feeling, I stop being a bundle of worries, and thoughts, and wasted motions, and start really having a ride.
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I like the 250 ninja idea, it looks like an affordable way to get into racing and is pretty much hasstle free to the point you can concentrate on learning the tracks and working on your riding style without having to worry about the bike. Anyone want to organise a forum race weekend, I'd fly out to Cal for that,
Fantastic idea!!! I don't particularly want to to have to organize it, but you can definitely count me in to participate, and my husband would for sure do it, too. Think you could handle getting your ass kicked on the racetrack by a girl?
To do it on the Ninja's with WSMC you'd need a race license (which has a min lap time requirement, it's possible to show up then not be able to race if you can't get there), plus Rich only has about 8 Ninjas, we'd have to reserve WAY in advance. But, I LOVE the idea of a forum race day (friendly, relatively low key, and safe), so I have a couple of other ideas - there's also a group out here that rents NSR50's (50cc race-prepped 5 speed mini sportbikes), to ride on a go-kart track. It's a different experience, since they are LITTLE bikes and don't go very fast, but it would probably be a lot easier to organize a private event with no race licenses required. It's still pretty darn competitive and fun, but not nearly the adrenaline of the big track, big bikes.
Or, here's another option - how about CodeRACE in October? Let CSS do the organizing, all we have to do is show up and chase each other around! Little more expensive, but TONS of track time, two real races, and we'd all learn something too.
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Dani and Nicky both have very different riding styles, Dani breaks the rear loose at the apex and picks the bike up at the same time as he rolls on the throttle squaring the last part of the turn and giving him maximum drive at the corner exit, (as per the pickup drill)! If Dani and Nicky were to take a corner at the same lean angle they would not be at the same corner speed, Dani's lighter weight would mean he would have to lean further to match Nicky's speed!
I dont know what Capirossi would say but I think you will find that all of the top level racers in the world are able to hit the same part of the track lap after lap using good RPs though I cant see where that is relevant to the topic we are discussing!
I can see your point, as my bringing up Capirossi does seem off topic. Perhaps I could have said it this way:
1- Observation <> (does not equal) conclusive
2- There's a problem with the logic stated above and that problem comes in when we use words that hint at "always".
Mathematically speaking, it's been stated that:
Rider at x lean angle, y speed = z turn radius
Rider at x lean angle, y+q speed = z+ [q (factor)] turn radius
Although this may be correct in some circumstances, it is not consistent across the board.
In other words, there are times:
Rider at x lean angle at y+q speed <> z+ [q (factor)] turn radius
And poor technique is not the ONLY reason to account for this.
Here's a personal experience example (we're waaaaaay off topic here, but whattheheck, right?)
A couple of years ago at ViR Patriot during my 5th session of the day, I'd gotten happy with my consistency. I could hit the TP, apex, exit nearly blind in a particular section; I was on it! (or so I thought) I was already at max lean for my given BP as I had consistent knee pressure on the tarmac. I changed NOTHING else during that session, except going in faster and faster and getting on the gas harder and harder, yet my turn radius didn't yet change until I was ready for it to. Why not? I was too slow and nowhere near the edge of performance. I was in the top of my riding group, but there were groups that were much faster. Once I loosened up with the new speed and allowed the bike to get closer to the rumble strip on exit did my turn radius change. Then, I could go even faster.
Nevertheless, I had accepted the answer as posted by HOTFOOT from Will (which coincidentally was hinted at earlier:
Simple question, but with some not-so-simple considerations. …However, there is another input to the steering than rider input and tire input, and it caused by steering trail. Suppose you had a bike on its centerstand (racers can ask tourers what that is), resting lightly on its front wheel. With its steering centered, push on the left side of the bike tank. You'll see the steering shift right, because the front tire contact patch is behind the point where the steering axis meets the pavement. I think that, as speed increases in a turn, the trail-induced forces tend to steer away from the direction of turn, which would act to increase the lean angle. Therefore, I suspect that a bike with enough trail might actually lean more into a turn, and actually decrease the turn radius, as speed increases. On the other hand, a bike with an intermediate amount of trail might actually tend to increase lean angle exactly enough to maintain a constant radius turn as speed increased-- with zero rider input to steering!
The latter condition sounds like nirvana-- you could fool around all you want with the throttle (within the traction limit), and not affect your line through a turn at all! (But, being a ######, Nature probably exacts some nasty other form of penalty for such a virtue.)…...
Couple of points here. First of all, the quote above is not the one I posted from Will. It is a bit similar, but it ain't de same, it was posted by, and written by, someone else. I thought Will's answer was easier to understand.
Second - what Will DID say was that trail will cause the front wheel to turn to a stabilizing point. That was making the LARGE assumption that the rider allows it to do so. I couldn't quite tell from your post if you were loose enough on the bars to allow that to happen. Also at risk of complicating the discussion, I think the fact that you were dragging a knee changes things like the effective lean angle (if you taking a little downforce on your knee) and creates a little drag on that side. Once you introduce the concept of a highly mobile rider the math gets so much more complicated that my brain freezes.
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Question - when you are riding a new track, how do you choose your turn points, on your first few laps around? Do you have a specific technique, or do you just wing it and see how it turns out? Do you try to spot the apex first, and if you can't see the whole turn, how do you choose it? Do you always go out wide, so you can see farther into the turn? My question applies to unfamiliar roads, too, but for the sake of discussion let's assume that the goal is speed and traction is good, and not consider other factors that would come up in street riding. Do you have a specific set of ideas about how to approach certain types of turns on your FIRST time through?
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I feel like I'm asking a stupid question, but how does one get into racing? I know there's the obvious answer "be really fast and have lots of money", but for the rest of us, is there some usual path? At this point I like doing track days but at some point I'd like to do more to challenge myself. Here's some of my million questions- how good do you have to be? how do you know when you're ready? can I do it with my street bike or do I have to have something dedicated? does this have to be expensive? is there some entry level class? I've been thinking about it since a remark from last year someone made to me:Aside from some top notch coaching, my guess is that it might be a little competition. Perhaps it's time to skip the track day and go race.
So, for those who have raced, how did it begin for you?
Well, I just started with it, so I'll give you my thoughts. Here is the obvious answer - go to CodeRACE. That requires less bike prep, or you can even use a school bike. It's also safer and a lot less intimidating, less people on the track and a well controlled environment. For me, I was ready for CodeRACE when I was brave enough to go, and willing to test myself against others. I was riding Level 2 (an intermediate level) at track days, about in the middle of the pack. CodeRACE made me a lot faster.
The next step was to get my novice race license, that requires attendance to a Novice Racer School, but at my local organization CodeRACE is accepted for that, so I didn't have to do the Novice school.
Here's a cool option, if you are out on the west coast: www.racebikerental.com, this guy rents Ninja 250s, already race prepped, so you can try a race without having to do all the safety prep on your own bike.
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Hotfoot-
Do you think that what's now posted would have helped you during your race weekend? Why or why not?
Yes. I had gotten the answer about trail from Will last week, and it DID help me this weekend, at the track, to recognize that the lean angle only changes if you make it change. I thought the bike would stand up on its own when you roll on, but it doesn’t, and that info helped me to hold the arc a little tighter in some turns, where previously I had been picking the bike up a little early with a steering input. It also helped me stand it up sooner (and more deliberately) in others, so I could get on the gas harder earlier. So yes, any bit of data helps, and anytime my understanding improves, it helps. The part that Keith posted was new to me today, but the point he makes that some riders are afraid of the fact that the arc widens when you roll on would probably have helped me too, as I am a bit afraid of that – if it is a high speed turn and the best line runs out to the edge of the track, I am overly careful to leave a wide margin for error. Next time I will pay more attention to predicting EXACTLY where the bike will want to go, which should give me more room to roll on harder, and therefore have better exit speed.
When Keith talks, I listen. Every single time. It's a strategy that is working well for me so far.
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I asked Will this question:
What MECHANICALLY makes the radius change when you increase the speed? It is not really a discussion of the CSS type roll-on for stabilizing the bike (although it may have started that way), it is the more theoretical discussion of what happens if you keep your lean angle, and increase your speed a lot, the radius of the circle will change, but what MAKES it do that, just the tire sliding more?
And here is his response:
It is too simple for most to realize it is the answer, Trail. What trail does is balance the bike against the pull of gravity. The rider sets the lean angle by displacing the bars against the force of trail and making the bike lean. Once released trail points the front wheel to balance the bike against gravity. Trail doesn't care about the speed of the bike, it just balances it at whatever angle it is at ( lean angle). If you increase speed without changing lean angle trail will simply "steer" the bike into a new bigger radius as the force to balance the bike is already there, or vise versa into a smaller one as speed drops while maintaining the lean angle as set by the rider.
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OK, here's the update on the custom earplugs - I used them this weekend on the track. They were great, the sound filtration was terrific. The guy we used (www.earplugs4u.com in CA) offers the earplugs with a filter, to allow some sounds to come through, or without, which gives a higher dB block but is too quiet for some people. I used the ones with the filter, and they were perfect - great wind and engine noise blocking, but I didn't feel totally disconnected, and could still hear someone talk to me in the pit area if they spoke loudly. I found them easier to put in correctly than the foam ones, and very comfortable, and they never shifted out of position like the foam ones sometimes do, especially when taking my helmet on and off. I highly recommend them. One small point, they are not really soft so you need to try on your helmet after getting them fitted to make sure they are slimmed down enough that there is no pressure on your ear between the helmet and earplug. I need to have one of mine trimmed down slightly - it became a little uncomfortable by the end of the second day. But, overall, they were great, I like them a lot better than the foam ones.
After reading some of the other posts on this thread, I want to clarify something - we had earplugs made for blocking wind noise while riding on the track. None of us were trying to make something to use for listening to music or cellphone while riding, or for use while street riding. I DID have custom earpiece made for my cellphone headset, to make it fit better, but that was not for motorcycle use, it's just another service he offers and we decided to try it, and it does make the headset fit more comfortably and more securely.
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OK, I e-mailed the AZ guys (Arizona), turns out I know the guy! He runs MSF training down in Phoenix, this is another business of his.
Sounds good, but I'm not going to be in AZ in the near future, and I'm looking for someone in the SoCal area that can do a custom plug for my Jawbone--anyone know some in the local area?
Best,
CF
Could try http://www.earplugs4u.com/ . They're in Diamond Bar. I have no experience with them, but have heard good reviews.
Personally, I tried the Jawbone 2, but could not get a comfortable fit. I replaced it with the Motorola H710 and couldn't be happier. The H710 over the ear is only $35 and conveniently turns on when you flip it open.
Apollo,
THANK YOU for this excellent recommendation, I checked out the link above, called the guy on Friday, got an appt for Saturday. Fitting was easy, pricing was reasonable, and Mark was a super nice guy and terrific to work with. The whole process only took about 30 minutes, I got earplugs and an earpiece for my phone. I'll try the earplugs out on the bike next weekend and let you know how they work. So thanks again, this was very helpful!!
After this, Cobie, I'm all for adding that equipment section on the forum, I can sure see how it would be useful!
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I didn't want to use earplugs and fought it for a while - they made me feel claustrophobic and disconnected, like being on cold medicine. Then I bought a new helmet, same brand (Shoei) but better ventilated than my old one. I was astounded at the difference in wind noise, now I HAVE to wear earplugs or the wind noise above about 100mph is actually painful and a big distraction. So, the helmet itself makes a big difference. Recently someone told me that those headsock things you can wear under your helmet reduce wind noise, too, but I haven't tried it.
It took me about three track days to get used to the feeling of wearing the earplugs. I wear them on all superbike trackdays and when driving go-karts (they are very high speed also) but not on my dirt bike or on the street.
I wear cheap throwaways, would like something better - where do you get the custom/reuseable type? Or is there a type of disposables that you like?
I would recommend a marksmanship store or shooting range.
Great idea, thank you! Do you think I could go to one without getting pulled into another expensive hobby??
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OK, so did Hotfoot get the answer desired?
BTW, Hotfoot went racing over the weekend, the first sanctioned event (had done CODERACE), where's the forum update??
C
Hotfoot tried nudging a complete answer out of Keith, but he's being tight-lipped :-)
Apparently Keith isn't so much "being tight-lipped" as he is "being out of town."
Yes, I went racing, it was great, pretty happy with a fourth place finish, as there were some much faster bikes mixed in the class. And yes, Cobie, you can take the blame for getting me hooked on this expensive sport. CodeRACE was a great preparation, I am SO glad I did that first. And BTW, where is YOUR answer to this burning question about circles? I might have gotten a podium finish if I had known the answer BEFORE the race.
I was paying attention to this when I was riding, I had a good long turn with a constant radius to try it, and it sure did FEEL to me like the front tire (maybe the back too, not sure) was losing ground and that was the thing that was making the radius bigger.
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I didn't want to use earplugs and fought it for a while - they made me feel claustrophobic and disconnected, like being on cold medicine. Then I bought a new helmet, same brand (Shoei) but better ventilated than my old one. I was astounded at the difference in wind noise, now I HAVE to wear earplugs or the wind noise above about 100mph is actually painful and a big distraction. So, the helmet itself makes a big difference. Recently someone told me that those headsock things you can wear under your helmet reduce wind noise, too, but I haven't tried it.
It took me about three track days to get used to the feeling of wearing the earplugs. I wear them on all superbike trackdays and when driving go-karts (they are very high speed also) but not on my dirt bike or on the street.
I wear cheap throwaways, would like something better - where do you get the custom/reuseable type? Or is there a type of disposables that you like?
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The perfect tool for this experiment would be a radio controlled motorcycle. Would it have to be one of the expensive hobby types that would allow you to change the trail?
Good idea! Do you think my Evel Knievel stunt cycle will work???
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Let's say you were to lean a bike over and put it into a 40 foot diameter (or radius) circle turn. In a perfect world and no additional steering changes or pressure on the bars, you roll on the throttle just enough to keep the suspension loaded. Would these things happen:
1. Bike increase this 40 foot diameter circle
2. Decrease in ground clearance
3. Increase in lean angle as speed increased
4. Eventually break tire traction
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Number one for sure, number four is unlikely.
Keith
Jaybird asked a follow up question - what exactly is the mechanism the CAUSES the radius of the circle to increase, if the rider does not add any steering input? Intuitively I thought that if you rolled on the throttle (possibly harder than Jaybird was thinking in his quote above) the increased forces would make the bike want to stand up and go wider, but I am told that this is not true, that with no rider input the bike's lean angle will not change when the throttle is rolled on. So, is that correct? And if so, what IS it that makes the bike travel a larger circle, slippage of the tires? Does this depend on bike setup?
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If you lean does not change and your speed increases the radius will increase.
How does the radius increase on a bike leaned to the inside of a turn when no bar input has been applied (assuming the tires are not sliding)?
Here is a quote from Wikipedia that's interesting:
Because real tires have a finite contact patch with the road surface that can generate a scrub torque, and when in a turn, can experience some side slipping as they roll, they can generate torques about an axis normal to the plane of the contact patch.
One such torque is generated by asymmetries in the side-slip along the length of the contact patch. The resultant force of this side-slip occurs behind the geometric center of the contact patch, a distance described as the pneumatic trail, and so creates a torque on the tire. Since the direction of the side-slip is towards the outside of the turn, the force on the tire is towards the center of the turn. Therefore, this torque tends to turn the front wheel in the direction of the side-slip, away from the direction of the turn, and therefore tends to increase the radius of the turn.
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Yes, this IS an academic discussion.
I recall in Twist 1 that it says that a motorcycle in a turn will continue to turn unless the rider's countersteering action stands it up.
OK, I retract my prior statement, as a very knowledgeable friend tells me that rolling on the throttle (even rolling it on a LOT) does NOT, in fact, make the bike stand up, that if the bike is standing up under acceleration it's because the rider is steering it up. So now this question is bugging me, too...
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If you lean does not change and your speed increases the radius will increase.
How does the radius increase on a bike leaned to the inside of a turn when no bar input has been applied (assuming the tires are not sliding)?
It just DOES, dammit.
OK, I'll take a stab at this, but I'm fearful it will start one of those scary physics discussions. And before I even start, let me make the point that it's probably not realistic to assume the tires are not sliding - they pretty much always are, to some degree, when you are turning, right...?
I THINK that as you roll on the throttle, you are increasing the force that is making the bike want to go straight (linear momentum?) AND stand up (less lean angle), so unless you actively prevent it from happening, the bike will stand up as you roll on and thus your circle will get bigger. If you roll on AND push on the bar to try to keep your lean angle constant, you will be adding more load on the tires and could lose traction.
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There are no "nice" hotels in Rosamond The Devenshire is the best and it is borderline at best
Comfort Inn and Holiday Inn Express in Lancaster are both nice, similar to a Marriott Courtyard. They are 20-30 minutes from the track, and they have continental breakfast available very early. It's worth the extra 10 minutes drive, trust me - the Devonshire is... uh... not as nice as Stu makes it sound.
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I have a question for the forum on throttle hand position.
I'm thinking about something and for some reason I don't quite recall how I changed my grip on the throttle to be able to roll full throttle.
I know it sounds silly, but I recall countersteering to max lean and then rotating my hand forward so that I could roll the throttle. I was above mid throttle by the time I reached the apex. Somehow, after coutersteering, I would manipulate my hand to be at a comfortable position so that by the time I would get tucked back in after the exit I was at full throttle. I just for the life of me can't seem to recall at what point in the turn I would do this.
It seemed that I had LOADS of time to make any adjustments I needed to get comfy mid-turn; so much that I discovered that I had my right hand at an awkward angle (but that's unrelated).
If you change your hand position, at what point do you do it? (if you have a stock throttle)
I am seeing a lot of positive reviews here on the quick turn throttle idea - it sounds great to me, too, I don't like how far I have to turn my throttle to get it wide open. However, just to share my experience with it, I put one on my bike, and had a tough time with it. It broke repeatedly, and if I hadn't had access to a really terrific mechanic right at trackside I would have been sidelined on at least two track days. I finally took it off and went back to stock. You can PM me if you want to know WHICH throttle it was, but the manufacturer's name starts with Y. Hopefully mine was an isolated case, but just thought I should share the info - on mine the set screws backed out easily, were very tiny and hard to use, and the metal screw connection in the cable actually snapped in half.
If any of you have another throttle that has worked well for you or you have been very happy with, post the info, I'm interested. I probably won't tackle the homemade PVC solution that I see on some other sites, although if you did it and it works great, I'd be interested to hear that, too.
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Frame Sliders, Replacement Pucks?
in School Questions/General Discussion
Posted
I ordered the Shogun stuff online, I think kneedraggers.com, but none of those retailers appear to sell replacement pucks, they have to come from Shogun; I guess I'll have to try emailing some retailers to get Shogun contact info.
Acutally it might be simplest to just add 'equipment' as part of set-up and handling. I looked at the list of topics and about half of them seem to be about equipment anyway. Or, maybe you want to split it up into multiple topics, like Tires, Suspension, Exhaust, Bodywork, Fuel, etc. in which case you may want a whole new section called Equipment and Setup with sub topics. I think the former idea would make it easier for regular users to spot new posts and answer them, but the second way might make it easier for new members to find older posts when they are looking for specific info, without having to look through pages of info about a wide array of topics.
Since we're discussing this, I think you could combine Racing and Racing Circuits, and maybe even combine School Questions with Successes/Photos, those areas seem to get a lot fewer new topics than the others.