Jump to content

Recommended Posts

oh yeah and the driveline lash is also from small clearances between gearteeth, chain/sprocket teeth, etc. and is more than just where your engine is running in it's powerband. the powerband part has more to do with how easy it is to control your engine, and how easy it is to open the throttle at a rate which initially allows the engine to spool up at a rate that lets the clearances between teeth and whatnot gradually diminish to the point of full contact, at which point any amount of throttle can be applied with no lash. you can test this out by cruising along a straight road, neutral throttle, then chopping throttle and cracking it open. i'm sure that you will find there is some lash involved. it is much more noticable on older bikes where the driveline has been well worn. it doesn't matter what rpm range you are at, if you go abruptly from positive throttle to negative throttle, or vice-versa, there will be lash. it will be harder to detect on a newer bike that has closer tolerances in the driveline than an older model that was looser to begin with and has become more so as miles have taken thier toll.

 

You made some good points but what RPM the engine is at and how the FI or carbs work has a huge effect on how the lash is taken up. The higher RPM puts the engine into a different range in the FI or carb circuits that make a smoth roll on more attainable. The smother the tip in is the earlier you can start the roll on to take up the lash.

Will

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

I have enjoyed these threads and emails. I'm an experienced street rider but am new to the track. Having attended the level 1 class late October and a track day in November (pitting next to Will and Keith), I've spent a great deal of time thinking about high performance cornering lately.

 

The basic physics of cornering are very interesting.

 

Lateral Acceleration (LA) is a result of combining two factors. Speed (V) and turn Radius ®.

 

LA= V^2 / R

 

Divide by 32 to express LA as a magnitude of gravity (G)

 

Hence: a turn with a radius of 190' taken at 60 MPH looks like this.

 

60MPH = 88 Ft. Per. Sec. (MPH * 1.4666667)

 

88^2 / 190 = 7744 / 190 = 40.758

 

divide by 32 = 1.274 G

 

So tires in such a turn will have to support 1.274 times the total weight of the bike and rider to a direct side load.

 

The lean angle for such a turn is just as cut and dried.

 

lean in Deg. = (aTan(V^2 / (32 * R)))

 

so... (aTan(88^2 / (32 * 190))) = (aTan(7744 / 6080)) = (aTan * 1.274) = 51.86 Deg. lean.

 

The important thing to realize here is that any speed / radius turn combination that results in a lean of 51.86 Deg. will have a lateral acceleration of 1.274 G and vice versa. The lateral acceleration and the lean angle go up in a direct relationship.

 

Since there is only so much grip available, at some point LA will exceed friction and the bike will slide. Slide too much and you will low side. The optimal lean angle would be just at the point where the tires start to slide.

 

When you consider these concepts with the goal of getting around a corner as quickly as possible you realize that the ideal turn would be made with the bike at the optimal lean angle as much as possible. To get around the entire track as quickly as possible you would adjust your speed for each turn to hit that same optimal lean angle every time. Slower in tighter corners, faster in wider corners. We all know this intuitively; the math allows us to understand this exactly.

 

If you don't trail brake and hold a constant speed around the turn, your line will be a constant radius. If you trail brake into the turn and accelerate out, the radius of your line will tighten as you slow down and widen as you accelerate if you keep a constant lean angle. Looking back at Keith's experiments with turns on the no BS bike we see that if he established a lean angle and added speed the turn radius would increase. That could be perceived as a "straightening up" of the bike. I would like to conduct a no BS turn experiment on the flat open "skid pad" area. I'd establish a constant speed / radius / lean angle and ride around in a circle until a stable turning state was achieved then slowly change speed to observe the effect of changing only one variable. It may take a while riding in circles to accomplish a good experiment. Doing this at different speeds, radius and lean angles then changing speed up and down would be interesting. Conducting such experiments on the track introduces too many variables like camber and rise.

 

BTW (I've ridden up to 4 miles of gently winding road on my BMW without touching the bars at about 40 MPH) But this is a discussion for another day.

 

Back to trail braking. One concept that I'm having trouble understanding is this, as I watch GP racers, they corner with remarkably consistent lean angles. This makes sense with regard to the physics mentioned above. What's strange to me is that they seem to be braking well into the corner. They do this even when riding alone when the only thing that matters is lap time. It seems to me that if they had enough grip to corner AND brake at the same time that they could do less braking and use that grip for turning by having a higher corner speed (higher lean angle)

 

Obviously whatever Mr. Rossi is doing is damn near perfection. If there were a faster way around a track, he would find it.

 

So my question about trail braking is this, exactly how much braking are they doing while at max. lean and why is it fast?

 

My suspicion is that they approach the turn with 99% of grip being used for straight line braking. And as they tip in they come off the brakes at the same rate that lateral acceleration consumes grip. As they hit max lean angle 95% of grip is being used for lateral acceleration and the brakes are using less than 5% of the available traction. They may use the first half or more of the turn to release the last 5% of brake.

 

I've seen telemetry from fast riders. It seemed that they spent the entire corner decelerating to mid corner and accelerating from that point on. Such evidence would invalidate my theory. I'd love to see the telemetry from the top 10 GP racers! It would answer just about every question on this forum.

 

one possible factor to consider may be that lateral acceleration forces and braking forces apply themselves to the contact patch at right angles to each other and don?t simply add up on top of one another. For example if you are in a 45 deg. leaned turn, your lateral acceleration would be exactly 1G. This pushes directly sideways on the contact patch. Braking pushes directly back on the contact patch. This is 90 off from the side force of cornering. If you corner at 1G and bake simultaneously with say .5G the contact patch would not be holding 1.5 G, it would be holding 1.12 G.

 

If the tire could hold a maximum of 1.2 G before sliding, you would be within a safety margin for grip.

 

It is possible that adding a minor braking force at right angles to the cornering force yields gains over a technique that uses slightly higher corner speed and little or no braking in the turn. Perhaps due to a shorter line through the corner or something.

 

One last bit of math. The total G force on the bike and rider in a given turn is the square root of LA^2 + 1.

 

So that 60 MPH / 190' radius turn with a LA of 1.274G and a lean angle of 51.86 deg. would generate a total G force of 1.62 G.

 

1.274^2 + 1 = 1.623 + 1 = 2.623

 

The Sq. Rt. of 2.623 is 1.62

 

A lean angle of 60deg. will generate 2Gs on the bike and rider. With a LA of 1.73

 

Truly,

Scott@ltd-aero.com

Riding Fontana Sunday Dec. 14th

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Well it seems most of you guys race, so it's hard to put in my 2 cents. I have 2 bikes, ZRX1200 and Ninja 250. Biiiggg! difference. But if I was to make it short and sweet, I come in hot, brake heavy straight up. About the time I have my body position setup for the turn and flick the bike, I start easing off the front brake but will carry my braking well into mid corner and more if it's a decreasing radius. The hard part is the transition back into the throttle. Gotta be smooth to keep the suspension flowing. I think fear is my worst enemy coming into the turns, I mis judge how fast I can really make some turns. My suspension sometimes puts that fear in me although I am improving it and front a rear and brakes should be complete this winter. I need to get braver and get on the gas sooner. I'm not totally sure of the limits on the tires (207RR&208GP) and how much they're gonna stick. I can deal with a controled slide, but I fear a low side.

Anywho.......... :D

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

it's so time consuming to discuss all the ideas presented, i thought i'd add a couple more to the fire... :P

scenario...you're on the brakes entering a corner and doing what you think is trailbraking as you approach the apex. preconceived ideas/experience tell you that you are at the limit of traction. BUT, if you apply MORE brake, this loads the tire more due to weight transfer effectively increasing traction, the bike stands up decreasing lean angle and you slow even more allowing a tighter line.

is there a problem here?

i'm now going slower than desired but, it may be something of use in a situation where i'm trying to avoid some unpleasantness. on the street, i can totally see this as viable as i doubt anyone is really at the limits.

having some race experience, this has saved me in t1 as we all joust for position upon the start. again, not anywhere near the limits unless you're up front.

so where am i going with this?

it boils down to something keith has said, 'sense of traction'.

for the life of me, i know there's more traction available but, it's certainly difficult to cultivate that trust. i first experienced the amount available when riding ysr's. i could virtually throw that thing into a turn without regard to speed, traction, etc. but until i took the chance and actually did it, i had no idea. so now, i have a bike that weighs 240lbs more and costs 10s of thousands more. do i want to just cast fate to the wind and toss it in there? you bet. i just can't, yet, find it within me.

a whole other can of worms is exposed when attempting to do so. my entry speed may be the same or higher but, i'll be using a later turn point and turning with much more quickness, getting to full lean aggressively, yet, smoothly. i don't want to be on the brakes and i hate going moto. can you see the dilemna?

how have others developed trust in traction? isn't this sense the key to all aspects of braking/turning?

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Scotto, If you could figure out the math behind this, you'd be the very first, and probably reach godlike status in the moto world. Unfortunately I think the reality is a lot more complex than a single mathematical model. There are chemical reactions in the tire, temperature, humidity, characteristics of different pavements, and don't forget the chemical reactions that are guiding the riders inputs. There will never be an equation that can tell us what the fastest way through corner is.

 

I agree that if you watch todays best racers, they are trail braking very deep into the corners. That's about all I can say for sure...

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Hi Scott

That's good stuff. I have thought that 45* would be a G and you have seemed to confirm this. But that would only be true if the rider was sitting straight up on the bike. How can the rider hanging off be accounted for?

One thing I see is alot of folks saying the Pro's trail brake deep into a corner, what proof? thier finger on the lever? I haven't seen one team with a pressure tranducer on the front brake. I would though, it would be a great help in understanding this subject.

Will

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

one way to proove they are dragging the brake into the corner is to watch the suspension travel between the front fender and front fairing. you can definately see it compress in braking, the begin to ease up as they have made the turn entry, and eventually it winds up rising up as they are on the throttle. it also makes you wish you had that kind of smoothness :)

i'd also like to point out i think that it matter what kind of bike you are on... if you notice GP bikes use almost all of thier ground clearance while cornering, and are not at the maximum of traction because they can still brake. if you have a ninja 250 with stock everything, most likely you will not have nearly the traction left when you have attained full lean angle (ie no clearances left). plus, on a smaller bike, you want to carry speed as much as possible, because you don't have 220+ hp driving you out of the corners. this can be evidenced by looking at the lines traveled by superbike riders and supersport riders... superbikers tend to "square off the corner" to pick the bike up as soon as possible so that they can use the drive, the best part of a superbike, to get down the next straightaway, whereas supersport riders tend to carry all possible speed into the corners. another example... i heard it said that a couple years ago when ducati was dominating supersport that it was easier on the rear tire for the ducks to be able to come in a little slower, and have all that midrange oomph to drive out of the corner, while the 4 cylinders where having to come in hotter and would wind up cooking the rear tire faster due to the faster turn entry. at least i'm pretty sure that's how it went. anyways, i think the best style for a person is the one that allows that person to get around the track fastest.

i nominate this thread for "longest thread on CSS forum" :)

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Wow ? Go to Sears? Point for a couple of days and the thread gets away from you in a hurry.

 

There is a lot to address so I will try to do it as susinctly as possible (hopefully Keith and Will will jump in to save me).

 

Scott ?

 

Very nice piece of work. If you ever get the chance to visit with Tony Foale, I highly recommend you do so. You and he speak the same language. I do have some questions/comments for you.

 

First ? As Paab (I think) pointed out, the math probably holds true in a vacuum, meaning that there are so many other important factors involved like friction, heat, tire expansion etc. I totally understand what you are saying though, and it does help me to visualize cornering load.

 

If you don't trail brake and hold a constant speed around the turn, your line will be a constant radius. If you trail brake into the turn and accelerate out, the radius of your line will tighten as you slow down and widen as you accelerate if you keep a constant lean angle.

I am not sure I agree with this statement. I find that if I am still slowing the bike by braking, my line does not tighten, but in fact takes me a little wider than I want. To keep a tight line I roll on the throttle immediately after my major turn input. When I come out of a turn wide, it is because I made a mistake (in the turn) with my throttle or brake, or I am counter-steering the bike up and out of the turn (often occurs when tight on the bars). I think there are essentially two ways to tighten a line (once you are already in the turn). One is to add more lean angle and the other is to lower your center of gravity while in the turn (hook turn the bike).

 

BTW (I've ridden up to 4 miles of gently winding road on my BMW without touching the bars at about 40 MPH) But this is a discussion for another day.
I too have a BMW (RT) and I too experiment with body steering. I find that if I turn on the cruise control and ride no hands, I can indeed influence the direction of the bike, but very slowly and over a very long stretch of road. We address some of this in Level III classes. I would not even think to attempt this if an even moderately tight turn were involved. Significantly all of influencing the direction of a bike comes as a result of counter-steer.

 

So my question about trail braking is this, exactly how much braking are they doing while at max. lean and why is it fast?

I think you answered this yourself. If there is only 100% of traction available (before you begin sliding), and you are using 95% for corner forces then there is only 5% remaining for braking (again, before you slide). Recall that most GP riders do in fact ?push? their front ends, so it is possible that they are 110% (as in Keith?s example). I would not recommend this for the average racer and certainly not for the novice rider.

 

I've seen telemetry from fast riders. It seemed that they spent the entire corner decelerating to mid corner and accelerating from that point on. Such evidence would invalidate my theory. I'd love to see the telemetry from the top 10 GP racers! It would answer just about every question on this forum.

I really cannot address this except to say that I feel faster and more stable not trailing to the apex. Maybe it is just me and my style, but I prefer to get on the gas the moment I am at my desired lean angle and I do try to get there quickly.

 

Again, very cool post. I do enjoy the math though when I ride I don?t typically use too much of my ?$10.00 of attention? thinking about squares and such?.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
Well it seems most of you guys race, so it's hard to put in my 2 cents.

 

EA6BMech (I take it you are a Navy guy and work on Prowlers?). Your input is as valuable or moreso than most of us on this thread as many many of us already have certain notions (preconceived and otherwise) and fresh perspective is very valuable. To your comment:

 

The hard part is the transition back into the throttle
.

 

This is very important. Recall the Level I drill "Throttle Control". What is the rider's job? To stabilize the bike (suspension). How do we accomplish this? By rolling on the throttle immediately after the major turn input. I suspect some the difficulty you have transitioning back onto the throttle is caused by an uneasy feeling in the bike while braking deep into the turn.

 

If rolling on the throttle helps to stabilize the bike (this is a good thing), then won't you want to do it as soon as possible? I do. Can you do roll on the throttle while braking? I heard in an unrelated post on another message board yes, but I cannot, nor do I want to. Seems pretty dang sketchy to me. I suggest you really try finishing off your braking in a straight line, and get good a quick turning the bike at precisely the moment you come all the way off the brakes. Once you have mastered this, then experiment with trailing the brakes. As this thread seems to point out, trailing the brakes does work for a number of riders, but as Keith points out, I think it is much easier to learn trail braking if you first master straight line braking and learn to set your entry speed for every corner.

 

One last thing I would like to add. When you really nail a corner with the right entry speed, finishing off your brakes and turning quickly while the suspension is still compressed, it is an amazing feeling. It is in these turns that I feel the most stable, and I am able to drive out the fastest.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Just another observation. I noticed I was trail braking into turn 9 at infinion yesterday. Because it was a quick right left it seemed like a good place to do it as I could trail into the right and still get a good drive out of the left. Just another observation to put out there.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

FastFreddie - First let me congratulate you on a fantastic season with WERA. Those are some pretty impressive results. Secondly, that was a very well thought out and articulated post. I do have a comment regarding the following:

 

scenario...you're on the brakes entering a corner and doing what you think is trailbraking as you approach the apex. preconceived ideas/experience tell you that you are at the limit of traction. BUT, if you apply MORE brake, this loads the tire more due to weight transfer effectively increasing traction, the bike stands up decreasing lean angle and you slow even more allowing a tighter line.

is there a problem here?

 

I think it depends greatly on the rider and situation. I know several guys who push the front, which indicates they are already past the limit of traction (as they are already sliding the front). Should these guys apply any brake at all, the result will be to increase the slide, not give more traction.

 

I totally understand the concept of getting the bike upright for more traction, but I think the events are out of sequence. Several motorcycle training organizations (like the MSF and CMSP) teach to get the bike upright first and then apply more brake. This makes good sense to me, as cornering forces use available traction as does braking. So, in a street situation where you must brake mid corner (say to avoid a deer), get the bike as upright as the situation allows while adding brake. In a race situation, I would think you are already at the limit of traction, otherwise you could have come into the turn faster. As far as finding the limit, I find the limit quite often and have crossed the limit (sadly) more times than I care to admit. I think a lot of guys do this - most racers I know fell at least once this past season alone (Ballistic may be the one exception). I think it is just part of the sport. We are constantly searching for that limit and consequently spend a fair amount of time there and sometimes cross just a bit much :)

 

Steve

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

steve m,

thanks for the congrats.

surely, it depends on the rider/situation. not to be a know-it-all but, unless they're of the r.mamola caliber talent, my guess is they have set-up issues. i've pushed front ends due to inadequate tires and/or suspension set-ups at 'no where near' my speed potential for said turn. i've made a mistake. agreed, applying brake at this time would most likely be trouble.

as the msf, et al, taught it, they're talking strictly street and my interpretation of their philosophy is...it's ok to go moto. how many times have you heard someone tell a street rider that if they're gonna blow a turn, 'throw it in harder'? (msf never said that to me) at street speed this is certainly do-able, provided the rider has a clear 'track' and very well within the realm of feasible for a racer not at the limits. i haven't attended an msf session in over 10 years and i didn't have much appreciation for their 'techniques' then. they may have changed. certainly, standing a bike up prior to hitting the brakes allows for maximum braking but, in any turn situation, wasn't your max braking already attended to?

what i was alluding to is this...traffic got in your way unexpectedly, now what? i'm not one to throw in the towel by standing it up and making a bee-line for the run-off...at least not in a race. should i do so, what about the guy on my tail? i also don't want to get rear-ended.

i have yet to enter a turn to my satisfaction - read: as fast as possible. my race program was a solo effort and i had to get me and the bike home for the next event. with that said, i always had leeway when it came to 'in turn' manuevering. this cautiousness on my part prevents me from 'tossing it in there'. admittedly, my duc is somewhat precious to me, as well.

getting back to my comment about more traction while applying brake, (keep in mind i'm not at absolute limits) what i meant was that the weight transfer forward would enlarge the footprint, hence more available traction. slowing down and holding the same line, naturally i would stand the bike up a bit...tho' this prolly happens on its own. at this point, i'm able to choose a tighter line if it benefits me to do so...avoid the deer or the guy who just shut the door(slower guys can dive down abruptly), whatever, or go wide and assume an alternate and completely different line as opposed to a line correction. also, i'm not talking about massive braking, that's already been taken care of. this is fine tuning depending on the need. granted, you can throw this all out the window if you have a clear track. i'm still holding back a bit.

(paraphrased simplification) when i had asked keith, 'what can i do to elevate my game?', he said, 'trust your tires'. for me, currently, easier said than done.

 

another 'brake' thought comes to mind. have you, anyone, ever used the brakes to turn?

 

ps. i have a feeling the css forums are gonna be awesome. i don't frequent many other forums and certainly not any that approach the level of feedback/info/experiences that i've seen here in its short existence. long live css! :D

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

fastfreddie said

 

(paraphrased simplification) when i had asked keith, 'what can i do to elevate my game?', he said, 'trust your tires'. for me, currently, easier said than done.

 

I have never told anyone to "trust their tires" in my entire existence as a teacher. I make a point of saying the opposite in fact. Riders learn to turst their tires when they have conquered basics like having a sharp perception of turn entry speeds and good throttle control. I have a little joke about that "trust you tires" thing. Do you know the fellow who made them? Are you sure he didn't drop his sandwich into the mold while he was making them? Riders trust themselves not the tires.

 

Keith

 

PS: The main thing about braking is what can you get away with. If a little front end push is OK then you probably can use the brakes close to maximum, straight up or leaned over. If you sense of traction is good enough so that you can feel what the tires are doing that is a huge help. If you are willing to commit yourself a little bit at a time to harder braking and faster entry speeds that is good. If you have the kind of spirit that will allow you to run fast on the first lap after a warm up or with tire warmers that is good to. If you are willing to stick it into a turn just to see what happens, that is the spirit of the game also.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

(paraphrased simplification) when i had asked keith, 'what can i do to elevate my game?', he said, 'trust your tires'. for me, currently, easier said than done.

 

i guess i should have said 'oversimplification'. :unsure:

 

your answer to my question had to do with your observations that virtually no one ever lost the front throwing it into a corner provided they weren't on the brakes, had proper set-up, traction was available, they were smooth, etc.

 

is there anything you can tell me(us), now, that might help attain that 'hail mary' corner entry?

 

ps. i apologize for misrepresenting your knowledge. :(

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

scenario...you're on the brakes entering a corner and doing what you think is trailbraking as you approach the apex. preconceived ideas/experience tell you that you are at the limit of traction. BUT, if you apply MORE brake, this loads the tire more due to weight transfer effectively increasing traction, the bike stands up decreasing lean angle and you slow even more allowing a tighter line.

is there a problem here?

 

Oh Yes there is. The two forces you are trying to manage against each other are weight and friction. If you put more weight on the front tire you are closer to or past the balance of them. More weight is less traction.

Will

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

I am not a trial braker and have a biased opinion towards quick turn for sure but I haven't seen the pro's or con's so I will give mine.

 

Quick turn:

 

Pro's

making the turn as big an ark as possible ( giving the most potential turn speed.

 

having good turn speed, good exit speed.

 

picking a turn point close to the turn gives you a very deep brake point.

 

You can get on the gas very soon and get weight off the front allowing a higher entry speed.

 

The bike is stable sooner giving the rider more confidence in the turn

 

once you have certainty you can make the bike turn when you want, the ability to run any line into the turn. Making passing easier than being confined by how much you can turn with the brake on.

 

Con's

It's scary to learn

 

Trail Braking

 

Pro's

Stuffing it under someone on the turn entry (lowlineing)

 

Slowing down in the turn?

 

Con's

 

turning slow because the brake is on.

 

having to stay tight on the bars well into the turn, locking the steering up with your arms and making the bike unstable.

 

lessening the ark in the turn and slowing your mid turn and exit speed.

 

increasing the risk of crashing, overloading the front and it locking. you loose the gyro and very few can recover from this.

Will

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

another 'brake' thought comes to mind. have you, anyone, ever used the brakes to turn?

 

Yes. But not like you would think. I have been doing this at the streets in the last series of corners, 11-13. They are a series of decreasing speed turns and what I have found to be working there is very busy and dangerous to try so please take notice ( don't try this at home, I am a trained professional).

 

As I get to the end of end of eleven and am setting up my body to turn from the right to the left I grab the front brake and it CSs the bike up from full lean. I really don't have to steer it, but it is only enough to stand the bike up, and slow it down for the next turn. Then I let off the brake and turn into the left, doing the same to get it up for 13.

 

Sometimes coming out 11 I will spin the rear just before grabbing the front brake and put it a couple inches out of track and shut the throttle as I grab the brake. Now that will snap the bike up in a hurry, and I didn't spend any attention on turning the bars.

 

This is very busy, and takes a lot of concentration. I will only use it when I need to catch up or trying to get a gap, I can't yet do it every lap.

Will

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
Just another observation. I noticed I was trail braking into turn 9 at infinion yesterday. Because it was a quick right left it seemed like a good place to do it as I could trail into the right and still get a good drive out of the left. Just another observation to put out there.

I noticed myself doing this too, but I may have been doing it for a different reason. Seems like every time I did it I had been doing a floater down the hill and missed my brake marker, having too much fun trying to figure out how to stay pinned and not have it pop up going over the hill. Never did though.

Will

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

That sounds like fun! I've never been at a track with turns that allow that, but I can see using the brake to make a quick transition like that. Have you tried it with just throttle and no brake? Step it out and then chop the throttle to kick you toward the high side?

 

In a slow in fast out chicane I like to carry one extra gear into the slow turn, and once I hit the apex, I open the throttle QUICKLY as I stand it up for the second bend. The bike is so easy to steer it is silly. and since I have taken up all the lash, and I'm in the soft part of the power I can hold it open and ride the torque curve all the way through the second bend nailing the power band just as I begin to pick it up. It fells AWESOME when I nail it just right.

 

As you said, this is when I'm chasing or trying to make a gap. Try at your own risk!

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
That sounds like fun! I've never been at a track with turns that allow that, but I can see using the brake to make a quick transition like that. Have you tried it with just throttle and no brake? Step it out and then chop the throttle to kick you toward the high side?

 

Yes, that's what I learned first. I did that at Loudon the first year of the new track in one and two. Sort of a controlled high side.

Will

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

looks like it's time to come back for more schoolin'! :D

will, can you get those brakin' techniques into a 'returning' level4 curriculum? B)

i'll bring spare bikes... :o:rolleyes:

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
looks like it's time to come back for more schoolin'! :D

will, can you get those brakin' techniques into a 'returning' level4 curriculum? B)

i'll bring spare bikes... :o:rolleyes:

I am reluctant to even say some of the things I do as some have crashed trying what I have told them. I will stick to the school drills at school's, as that is what 24 years have proven to repeatedly work.

Will

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
what do i gotta do? hire you for private lessons? :D

First off Cobie has better instructors, with far more training than I. Talk to Cobie about it.

Will

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
First off Cobie has better instructors, with far more training than I.? Talk to Cobie about it.

i wanted to say somethin' smart/funny but all i can do is think, 'this is serious...listen to will.'

i'm not sure what my plans are 'til i heal properly. however...

you guys are the best and i'd love to have a need for your(plural) expertise, again. nothing helped me more with my riding than css. i picked up a trick or two from other schools and made them part of my 'riding toolbox' but...i'm still processing info from you guys...stuff css taught me last june, a year and a half ago, as well as the coderace stuff this april. deep stuff, and it's all good. it's gonna take years to master it all.

 

please, sirs, can i have more? :D

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Create an account or sign in to comment

You need to be a member in order to leave a comment

Create an account

Sign up for a new account in our community. It's easy!

Register a new account

Sign in

Already have an account? Sign in here.

Sign In Now

×