Maximum Braking Effect

[hubbard_28]

Alright. I was at the track yesterday, and asked a few of the more seasoned racers about blipping. One of them explained it to me in a way I can understand, and made it that much easier.

He said that to "blip the throttle," you squeeze the clutch, downshift, and before letting the clutch out: blip. That's it. He said that I can clutch in, shift, coast however long I want, and before letting the clutch out, blip it, and thats it. It's not a matter of shift/blip real quick. Just blip before letting out the clutch. Easy enough.

There is no reason to blip between shifts when doing more than one gear, because ultimately it's after the last gear that you are going into that you need to match the neutral transmission to the engaging engine.

I hope I've explained it to anyone still with questions (although I may be the only one who was still having problems with it) regarding the specificities of when to do everything and what order it's done in.

 

After explaining that to me, Jace remembered that I'm on an '05 ZX6, and reminded me I have a slipper clutch, and that's why I don't have any of the rear chatter everyone else talks about. That also explains why I was doing so well on my bike, but on my wife's EX 650, I was sliding the rear tire. Duh.

[racer]

Alright. I was at the track yesterday, and asked a few of the more seasoned racers about blipping. One of them explained it to me in a way I can understand, and made it that much easier.

He said that to "blip the throttle," you squeeze the clutch, downshift, and before letting the clutch out: blip. That's it.

Well, the thing is, he got it just a little bit wrong. The blip should happen before the shift. Yes, you can force the shift and blip later to merely smooth out the clutch release... as long as you don't piss around too long and manage to catch the shift at the right point. You'll get away with it for the same reason you can downshift without using the clutch at all. However, if you wait too long before shifting you will bounce the gear right back out again and do nice damage to the shift dogs in the process. I'm pretty sure the zx6's all come with undercut dogs, and, you will chip and break them if you get lazy. Blip before or at least during the shift to help match the gear speeds in the tranny and release the clutch quickly. You and your bike will live longer.

 

He said that I can clutch in, shift, coast however long I want, and before letting the clutch out, blip it, and thats it. It's not a matter of shift/blip real quick. Just blip before letting out the clutch. Easy enough.

And how do you figure that'll affect your lap times?

 

There is no reason to blip between shifts when doing more than one gear, because ultimately it's after the last gear that you are going into that you need to match the neutral transmission to the engaging engine.

Actually, there is very good reason. If you get into the habit of doing in the order you post here, the first time you get in over your head or get flustered and get your timing off you will damage your bike.

 

I have an animation of a constant mesh sequential transmission around here somewhere that I will post so everyone can see how a motorcycle tranny works and why it is important to blip before or at least during your shift.

 

Cheers,

 

r

[Jaybird180]

... I'm on an '05 ZX6, and reminded me I have a slipper clutch, and that's why I don't have any of the rear chatter everyone else talks about.

Cheater (LOL)

[Jaybird180]

I have an animation of a constant mesh sequential transmission around here somewhere that I will post so everyone can see how a motorcycle tranny works and why it is important to blip before or at least during your shift.

You put it out there, now you MUST show.

[Cobie Fair]

I have an animation of a constant mesh sequential transmission around here somewhere that I will post so everyone can see how a motorcycle tranny works and why it is important to blip before or at least during your shift.

You put it out there, now you MUST show.

 

Some animation would be a good thing.

 

Another point: why take a long time to do a downshift? If it can get done quicklly and smoothely (and it can), isn't that better than slow?

 

Also, it's common to let the clutch out between each shift. I know some just keep banging it down multiple gears with the clutch in the whole time, but what if it doesn't go down a gear, or goes down 2? One wouldn't know where they would be at the end.

 

Even with a slipper clutch, I believe one can over rev a engine--anyone know for sure on this point?

 

C

[racer]

I have an animation of a constant mesh sequential transmission around here somewhere that I will post so everyone can see how a motorcycle tranny works and why it is important to blip before or at least during your shift.

You put it out there, now you MUST show.

 

Actually, the link for the animation is here on this website already. I think I posted it last year during a discussion about transmissions with another instructor here. Unfortunately I am at work right now and cannot really spare the time to go digging for it.

[Kevin Kane]

Even with a slipper clutch, I believe one can over rev a engine--anyone know for sure on this point?

I have had rear wheel hop with a slipper clutch when I asked too much of it going into 5 at PIR East

 

Kevin

[racer]

I have an animation of a constant mesh sequential transmission around here somewhere that I will post so everyone can see how a motorcycle tranny works and why it is important to blip before or at least during your shift.

You put it out there, now you MUST show.

 

Here is one link. You can navigate around within the site to see different types of transmissions and what they have in common:

 

http://auto.howstuffworks.com/transmission3.htm

 

And here is one specifically about motorcycle transmissions:

 

http://www.gadgetjq.com/transmission.htm

[Cobie Fair]

cool stuff, thanks for posting that.

 

CF

[hubbard_28]

"If you're shifting properly, matching engine/transmission speeds and shift quickly those dogs can slip right into the slots no muss no fuss. (1)If, however, you are a little lazy with a shift and take too long or don't put much pressure on the shift lever those dogs will just skitter over the top of the slots causing what many riders misinterpret as grinding 'gears'.

 

There are two common problems that develop with motorcycle transmissions.

 

1. (2)Each time the dogs are allowed to grind the rider is wearing just a little bit off of them. Those 'pegs' get shorter and shorter (or the holes become more elongated) until the transmission will no longer stay in a particular gear or it pops out of a gear. This is 'most' common between 1st and 2nd gear for some reason.

 

2. (3)The rider forces the transmission to shift too quickly and/or puts too much pressure on the shift lever. When this happens the dogs might be pressed hard against the gear in the solid space between slots. Look at the top animation again and notice the green shift fork. That fork can be bent and, as you can see from the animation if the fork is bent backward (to the right in this picture) it probably isn't going to completely engage the dogs. Result, the transmission will pop out of gear. If the dogs just barely release you'll not only be back in neutral but could hear a lot of grinding with the dogs rubbing against the slots."

 

Alright.

(1) The statement that if one is a "little lazy with a shift," what exactly does that mean?

(2) What makes the "dogs" grind? If you hit the shift lever and haven't matched engine speed, is that what causes this? Would that mean that we need to blip BEFORE shifting? Does that also keep from putting pressure on the shift fork?

(3) What does it mean when "the rider forces the transmission to shift too quickly and/or puts too much pressure on the shift lever?"

 

Another question, if anyone knows, is: how does the slipper clutch come into play?

[Jaybird180]

"If you're shifting properly, matching engine/transmission speeds and shift quickly those dogs can slip right into the slots no muss no fuss. (1)If, however, you are a little lazy with a shift and take too long or don't put much pressure on the shift lever those dogs will just skitter over the top of the slots causing what many riders misinterpret as grinding 'gears'.

 

There are two common problems that develop with motorcycle transmissions.

 

1. (2)Each time the dogs are allowed to grind the rider is wearing just a little bit off of them. Those 'pegs' get shorter and shorter (or the holes become more elongated) until the transmission will no longer stay in a particular gear or it pops out of a gear. This is 'most' common between 1st and 2nd gear for some reason.

 

2. (3)The rider forces the transmission to shift too quickly and/or puts too much pressure on the shift lever. When this happens the dogs might be pressed hard against the gear in the solid space between slots. Look at the top animation again and notice the green shift fork. That fork can be bent and, as you can see from the animation if the fork is bent backward (to the right in this picture) it probably isn't going to completely engage the dogs. Result, the transmission will pop out of gear. If the dogs just barely release you'll not only be back in neutral but could hear a lot of grinding with the dogs rubbing against the slots."

 

Alright.

(1) The statement that if one is a "little lazy with a shift," what exactly does that mean?

(2) What makes the "dogs" grind? If you hit the shift lever and haven't matched engine speed, is that what causes this? Would that mean that we need to blip BEFORE shifting? Does that also keep from putting pressure on the shift fork?

(3) What does it mean when "the rider forces the transmission to shift too quickly and/or puts too much pressure on the shift lever?"

 

Another question, if anyone knows, is: how does the slipper clutch come into play?

 

1- The shift should be executed decisively as opposed to lazily

2- Matching engine speed is a factor of the internal transmission ratios. If the speed is not within the "zone" there will be a significant change in overall output to the rear wheel, usually resulting in the rider feeling a sudden jerk as the clutch is re-engaged

3- Akin to trying to force it when it's not ready yet (I had a great metaphor, but we won't go there)

 

A slipper clutch is more properly termed a back-torque limiting clutch. It allows the clutch basket to "slip" if the rear wheel is significantly traveling faster than the newly selected internal gear ratio on downshift, thereby reducing the tendency to hop the rear wheel. It can't eliminate all problems but can handle them within a certain range. Hope this helps.

[hubbard_28]

Sorry double post.

[hubbard_28]

"If you're shifting properly, matching engine/transmission speeds and shift quickly those dogs can slip right into the slots no muss no fuss. (1)If, however, you are a little lazy with a shift and take too long or don't put much pressure on the shift lever those dogs will just skitter over the top of the slots causing what many riders misinterpret as grinding 'gears'.

 

There are two common problems that develop with motorcycle transmissions.

 

1. (2)Each time the dogs are allowed to grind the rider is wearing just a little bit off of them. Those 'pegs' get shorter and shorter (or the holes become more elongated) until the transmission will no longer stay in a particular gear or it pops out of a gear. This is 'most' common between 1st and 2nd gear for some reason.

 

2. (3)The rider forces the transmission to shift too quickly and/or puts too much pressure on the shift lever. When this happens the dogs might be pressed hard against the gear in the solid space between slots. Look at the top animation again and notice the green shift fork. That fork can be bent and, as you can see from the animation if the fork is bent backward (to the right in this picture) it probably isn't going to completely engage the dogs. Result, the transmission will pop out of gear. If the dogs just barely release you'll not only be back in neutral but could hear a lot of grinding with the dogs rubbing against the slots."

 

Alright.

(1) The statement that if one is a "little lazy with a shift," what exactly does that mean?

(2) What makes the "dogs" grind? If you hit the shift lever and haven't matched engine speed, is that what causes this? Would that mean that we need to blip BEFORE shifting? Does that also keep from putting pressure on the shift fork?

(3) What does it mean when "the rider forces the transmission to shift too quickly and/or puts too much pressure on the shift lever?"

 

Another question, if anyone knows, is: how does the slipper clutch come into play?

 

1- The shift should be executed decisively as opposed to lazily

2- Matching engine speed is a factor of the internal transmission ratios. If the speed is not within the "zone" there will be a significant change in overall output to the rear wheel, usually resulting in the rider feeling a sudden jerk as the clutch is re-engaged

3- Akin to trying to force it when it's not ready yet (I had a great metaphor, but we won't go there)

 

A slipper clutch is more properly termed a back-torque limiting clutch. It allows the clutch basket to "slip" if the rear wheel is significantly traveling faster than the newly selected internal gear ratio on downshift, thereby reducing the tendency to hop the rear wheel. It can't eliminate all problems but can handle them within a certain range. Hope this helps.

Helps a lot, Jaybird. Thanks. I think the forcing is what happened when I missed an up shift on a straight, then had a problem down shifting while I was going into a corner from a short straight. I missed a shift, and was about to go into 1st from 3rd (thought I was going into 2nd from 4th) without knowing it at the time, and when I was trying to get the second downshift, I saw the bike was in neutral, and it made an awful noise when I tried a couple times to put it in gear. I went off track and came to a stop before I started messing with it because of the grinding noise it made. I guess I was going too fast for the bike to want to go down to first.

[Jaybird180]

"If you're shifting properly, matching engine/transmission speeds and shift quickly those dogs can slip right into the slots no muss no fuss. (1)If, however, you are a little lazy with a shift and take too long or don't put much pressure on the shift lever those dogs will just skitter over the top of the slots causing what many riders misinterpret as grinding 'gears'.

 

There are two common problems that develop with motorcycle transmissions.

 

1. (2)Each time the dogs are allowed to grind the rider is wearing just a little bit off of them. Those 'pegs' get shorter and shorter (or the holes become more elongated) until the transmission will no longer stay in a particular gear or it pops out of a gear. This is 'most' common between 1st and 2nd gear for some reason.

 

2. (3)The rider forces the transmission to shift too quickly and/or puts too much pressure on the shift lever. When this happens the dogs might be pressed hard against the gear in the solid space between slots. Look at the top animation again and notice the green shift fork. That fork can be bent and, as you can see from the animation if the fork is bent backward (to the right in this picture) it probably isn't going to completely engage the dogs. Result, the transmission will pop out of gear. If the dogs just barely release you'll not only be back in neutral but could hear a lot of grinding with the dogs rubbing against the slots."

 

Alright.

(1) The statement that if one is a "little lazy with a shift," what exactly does that mean?

(2) What makes the "dogs" grind? If you hit the shift lever and haven't matched engine speed, is that what causes this? Would that mean that we need to blip BEFORE shifting? Does that also keep from putting pressure on the shift fork?

(3) What does it mean when "the rider forces the transmission to shift too quickly and/or puts too much pressure on the shift lever?"

 

Another question, if anyone knows, is: how does the slipper clutch come into play?

 

1- The shift should be executed decisively as opposed to lazily

2- Matching engine speed is a factor of the internal transmission ratios. If the speed is not within the "zone" there will be a significant change in overall output to the rear wheel, usually resulting in the rider feeling a sudden jerk as the clutch is re-engaged

3- Akin to trying to force it when it's not ready yet (I had a great metaphor, but we won't go there)

 

A slipper clutch is more properly termed a back-torque limiting clutch. It allows the clutch basket to "slip" if the rear wheel is significantly traveling faster than the newly selected internal gear ratio on downshift, thereby reducing the tendency to hop the rear wheel. It can't eliminate all problems but can handle them within a certain range. Hope this helps.

Helps a lot, Jaybird. Thanks. I think the forcing is what happened when I missed an up shift on a straight, then had a problem down shifting while I was going into a corner from a short straight. I missed a shift, and was about to go into 1st from 3rd (thought I was going into 2nd from 4th) without knowing it at the time, and when I was trying to get the second downshift, I saw the bike was in neutral, and it made an awful noise when I tried a couple times to put it in gear. I went off track and came to a stop before I started messing with it because of the grinding noise it made. I guess I was going too fast for the bike to want to go down to first.

And now you know why we downshift 1 gear at a time, releasing the clutch between shifts. (wink)

[Cobie Fair]

And now you know why we downshift 1 gear at a time, releasing the clutch between shifts. (wink)

 

On a somewhat side note, if one constantly gets missed shifts (reminder, I don't use the clutch up or down), then it can be the shift lever is misadjusted. I had mine a little too low, and due to that missed a few upshifts (GP shift).

 

CF

[Kevin Kane]

And now you know why we downshift 1 gear at a time, releasing the clutch between shifts. (wink)

 

On a somewhat side note, if one constantly gets missed shifts (reminder, I don't use the clutch up or down), then it can be the shift lever is misadjusted. I had mine a little too low, and due to that missed a few upshifts (GP shift).

 

CF

Cobie;

 

Can you refresh my memory? I do clutchless upshifting by just rolling off a slight bit when I click up and there has never been a problem but on a clutchless downshift do you blip up or down?

 

Kevin

[Cobie Fair]

Cobie;

 

Can you refresh my memory? I do clutchless upshifting by just rolling off a slight bit when I click up and there has never been a problem but on a clutchless downshift do you blip up or down?

 

Kevin

 

Throttle goes off, brake comes on, scrub some speed. Or, if just rolling off, roll off, scrub some speed. So, throttle is off, tiny blip to relieve the tension in the transmission (can even be done with the brake on of course), just a quick off/on--not much is needed.

 

Even works on Ducs

 

C

[Kevin Kane]

Even works on Ducs

Excellent!

BTW, I started clutchless upshifting when I began racing at Loudon (you had taught me how to do this at Mid-O) but my second question is can you use clutchless downshifting in that type of high RPM environment?

Thanks;

 

Kevin

[racer]

Even works on Ducs

 

Quack, quack, quack... that's so ducky.

 

Excellent!

BTW, I started clutchless upshifting when I began racing at Loudon (you had taught me how to do this at Mid-O) but my second question is can you use clutchless downshifting in that type of high RPM environment?

Thanks;

 

Kevin

 

Yes, you can, Kevin.

 

And, like Cobie said, you need just a tiny little blip to "relieve the tension in the transmission". To be more detailed, you need to time the downshift just right with the blip to catch the tranny between lash states (on/off gas) while eveything is "free floating", so to speak. To put it another way, you need the drive train to be sort of in between "on the gas" and "off the gas". Personally, I try to catch the motor on the "upswing" of the tiny blip, as the motor is accelerating, and then just stay in the gas as the gear catches if I am ready to accelerate. I find the process flows most smoothly that way. In other words, for me, the blip flows into being back on the gas. You can also catch the gear with the blip and then close the throttle again or continue to decelerate, too, if you want to keep scrubbing speed or braking.

 

I started clutchless downshifting on my GP bikes and, in fact, did it by accident the first time. It is much easier to do with a two-stroke that has a relatively light crankshaft, hence, less mass to lash against the tranny. Also, a slipper clutch really helps to smooth the process out... a lot! In fact, I find it much more difficult to do smoothly on a four stroke without a slipper clutch.

 

r

[Kevin Kane]

Even works on Ducs

 

Quack, quack, quack... that's so ducky.

 

Excellent!

BTW, I started clutchless upshifting when I began racing at Loudon (you had taught me how to do this at Mid-O) but my second question is can you use clutchless downshifting in that type of high RPM environment?

Thanks;

 

Kevin

 

Yes, you can, Kevin.

 

And, like Cobie said, you need just a tiny little blip to "relieve the tension in the transmission". To be more detailed, you need to time the downshift just right with the blip to catch the tranny between lash states (on/off gas) while eveything is "free floating", so to speak. To put it another way, you need the drive train to be sort of in between "on the gas" and "off the gas". Personally, I try to catch the motor on the "upswing" of the tiny blip, as the motor is accelerating, and then just stay in the gas as the gear catches if I am ready to accelerate. I find the process flows most smoothly that way. In other words, for me, the blip flows into being back on the gas. You can also catch the gear with the blip and then close the throttle again or continue to decelerate, too, if you want to keep scrubbing speed or braking.

 

I started clutchless downshifting on my GP bikes and, in fact, did it by accident the first time. It is much easier to do with a two-stroke that has a relatively light crankshaft, hence, less mass to lash against the tranny. Also, a slipper clutch really helps to smooth the process out... a lot! In fact, I find it much more difficult to do smoothly on a four stroke without a slipper clutch.

 

r

 

Racer;

 

Thanks for the detailed response. I do have a slipper clutch in my track Duc so I will try this technique once the '09 season starts. Unfortunately, we're getting snow on Sunday here in Central New York State.

 

Kevin

[racer]

Racer;

 

Thanks for the detailed response. I do have a slipper clutch in my track Duc so I will try this technique once the '09 season starts. Unfortunately, we're getting snow on Sunday here in Central New York State.

 

Kevin

 

Us too here in western Pennsylvania. WAAAAAAAHHHHH I hate lake effect.

 

 

Hey, Kevin, do you snow ski? We could meet half-way in south-western NY. I've been to a couple of nice little ski hills there. Peak 'n' Peak is one. I forget the other one.

[Kevin Kane]

Hey, Kevin, do you snow ski? We could meet half-way in south-western NY. I've been to a couple of nice little ski hills there. Peak 'n' Peak is one. I forget the other one.

 

Racer;

 

It's been a few years...

 

Kevin

[hubbard_28]

And now you know why we downshift 1 gear at a time, releasing the clutch between shifts. (wink)

 

On a somewhat side note, if one constantly gets missed shifts (reminder, I don't use the clutch up or down), then it can be the shift lever is misadjusted. I had mine a little too low, and due to that missed a few upshifts (GP shift).

 

CF

I don't clutchless shift because all I've been told is that is messes up the transmission. I'm sure it's not the most reliable info, but is there ANY truth to it?

[racer]

And now you know why we downshift 1 gear at a time, releasing the clutch between shifts. (wink)

 

On a somewhat side note, if one constantly gets missed shifts (reminder, I don't use the clutch up or down), then it can be the shift lever is misadjusted. I had mine a little too low, and due to that missed a few upshifts (GP shift).

 

CF

I don't clutchless shift because all I've been told is that is messes up the transmission. I'm sure it's not the most reliable info, but is there ANY truth to it?

 

In my opinion, if done properly, you will be fine. If done improperly, there is potential for doing serious damage such that the transmission will cease to function properly and will require rebuilding. Bent shift forks, chipped and broken dogs, etc.

[spthomas]

Us too here in western Pennsylvania. WAAAAAAAHHHHH I hate lake effect.

I grew up in Erie; when I was a kid my favorite season was winter and my favorite weather was gray overcast skies and snow. Raw material falling from the skies- you could make huge snow forts, sled ride- what more could a kid want!? Of course I didn't have a motorcycle back then, so now I don't like snow or even cold weather. But back then, to play, you had to put on your coat, pants, boots, gloves, scarf, hat, etc. and now to play, I do about the same thing. Maybe at least I learned to wear the right gear!