Hello All....

[slowass]

Hello everyone,I have stumbled across the site and found it very useful. I have had my license just over two years now, so I am very much still learning....I have done my Level 1 & 2 both at Silverstone - Stowe, as well as a few trackdays.On my level 2 my instructor noticed my throttle control was not quite right. We got it corrected throughout the day, but it is still something that bugs me.Am I understanding this correctly - "When turning in, the turn should be initated on a closed throttle and then rolled on evenly through the turn".Excuse me for asking a basic question, but I perhaps overthink things Thanks

[racer]

Am I understanding this correctly - "When turning in, the turn should be initated on a closed throttle and then rolled on evenly through the turn".

 

Yep. You got it.

 

Once you reach the desired lean angle, stop pushing on the inside bar and smoothly roll on the throttle.

[hubbard_28]

I usually go by the brake or throttle rule. You're either on the brake or the throttle. There are some corners that I'm still on the brake going into, but on most corners I'm already on the gas going into the corner.

[Jaybird180]

Am I understanding this correctly - "When turning in, the turn should be initated on a closed throttle and then rolled on evenly through the turn".

 

Yep. You got it.

 

Once you reach the desired lean angle, stop pushing on the inside bar and smoothly roll on the throttle.

Closed throttle on turn-in???? Whatever happened to turning in at maintenance throttle?

[Derek Sauder]

Am I understanding this correctly - "When turning in, the turn should be initated on a closed throttle and then rolled on evenly through the turn".

 

Yep. You got it.

 

Once you reach the desired lean angle, stop pushing on the inside bar and smoothly roll on the throttle.

Closed throttle on turn-in???? Whatever happened to turning in at maintenance throttle?

 

 

I don't think I ever want go into a turn w/ a closed throttle. If you go into a turn w/ a closed throttle, wouldn't you start to run on the inside of you apex? You just don't want to be accelerating when you flick the bike. If you don't maintain you throttle possition how would you control you line?

 

As far as being on the brake into the turn... Isn't the bike harder to turn or flick if you are on the brake? Wouldn't that be a deterant to turning as quickly as possible?

[hubbard_28]

"As far as being on the brake into the turn... Isn't the bike harder to turn or flick if you are on the brake? Wouldn't that be a deterant to turning as quickly as possible?"

 

I really only brake into a corner on a decrease radius turn (sometimes on others, but VERY rarely), but I can usually go pretty deep doing it.

 

If I'm coasting (closed throttle) into a turn, I've messed up somewhere along the way.

[racer]

Hey guys,

 

You can pick up a copy of A Twist of the Wrist and Keith's other books/videos here: https://secure.echoalley.com/superbikeschool/store/

 

For what it's worth, I've been riding for thirty years and raced for ten years winning so many trophies I only keep the national podium finishes on display anymore, and keep the rest in several boxes in the attic. Everything I learned to let me win all those trophies is in Keith's books.

 

Good luck,

 

racer

[Jaybird180]

Hey guys,

 

You can pick up a copy of A Twist of the Wrist and Keith's other books/videos here: https://secure.echoalley.com/superbikeschool/store/

 

For what it's worth, I've been riding for thirty years and raced on the pro-circuit for ten years winning so many trophies I only keep the national podium finishes on display anymore, and keep the rest in several boxes in the attic. Everything I learned to let me win all those races is in Keith's books.

 

Good luck,

 

racer

Racer, you okay bud? Ordinarily you'd be willing to backup your statements. Some of us have come to expect and look forward to that from you. C'Mon, don't back out on us now.

[racer]

Sorry, Jay, I was short on time and there were several posts that all seemed to be saying the same wrong thing. Forgive me, I just didn't feel like getting into an argument with three people at once. And there's no sense arguing from a position of being "just some guy" on the internet, so, I referred the subject to someone you will believe, namely Keith Code.

 

The bottom line is that closing the throttle puts weight on the front tire to allow you to quick turn the bike. The only type of corner where I will still be in the throttle when I make a steering input is a relatively shallow high speed kink or sweeper where I can't really quick turn anyway and maintaining a balanced suspension is more important to carrying speed through the entry than quick turning the bike.

 

That said, for "normal" commuting type riding or riding some country road at a relaxed pace, one doesn't really need to "quick turn" the bike and being in the throttle when you bend into a lazy turn is normal. The truth is I quit riding on the street in 1993 and tend to think of everything in terms of high performace riding or racing which requires specific skills and techniques that, while useful in emergency situations on the street, aren't really the norm.

[Jaybird180]

Sorry, Jay, I was short on time and there were several posts that all seemed to be saying the same wrong thing. Forgive me, I just didn't feel like getting into an argument with three people at once. And there's no sense arguing from a position of being "just some guy" on the internet, so, I referred the subject to someone you will believe, namely Keith Code.

 

I think you've established yourself around here as more than "just some guy on the internet". Just my opinion.

The bottom line is that closing the throttle puts weight on the front tire to allow you to quick turn the bike. The only type of corner where I will still be in the throttle when I make a steering input is a relatively shallow high speed kink or sweeper where I can't really quick turn anyway and maintaining a balanced suspension is more important to carrying speed through the entry than quick turning the bike.

This has been my habit and I've been trying to train it out of myself. Are you now saying that I was making the correct control inputs all along? (error...not processing...error Will Robinson)

 

That said, for "normal" commuting type riding or riding some country road at a relaxed pace, one doesn't really need to "quick turn" the bike and being in the throttle when you bend into a lazy turn is normal. The truth is I quit riding on the street in 1993 and tend to think of everything in terms of high performace riding or racing which requires specific skills and techniques that, while useful in emergency situations on the street, aren't really the norm.

 

I'd like to quote Keith Code in saying, "It doesn't matter what you ride or where you ride, the principles remain the same"

 

I think that performing turn-in at maintenance throttle would work because:

1- The Chassis and suspension are settled

2- No drivetrain lash when getting back in the gas leaned over

 

I haven't done Lvl1 yet, so take this with a grain of salt, but isn't that one of the goals of the Throttle Control, no brakes drill? To train the rider to go into the corner at maintenance throttle, ON the gas?

 

Thanks Slowass for bringing up your "basic" question. Topics like this help us all.

[Cobie Fair]

I'd like to quote Keith Code in saying, "It doesn't matter what you ride or where you ride, the principles remain the same"

 

I think that performing turn-in at maintenance throttle would work because:

1- The Chassis and suspension are settled

2- No drivetrain lash when getting back in the gas leaned over

 

I haven't done Lvl1 yet, so take this with a grain of salt, but isn't that one of the goals of the Throttle Control, no brakes drill? To train the rider to go into the corner at maintenance throttle, ON the gas?

 

Thanks Slowass for bringing up your "basic" question. Topics like this help us all.

 

If you roll on the throttle while turning in, or have it on already, then what happens to the line the bike will take? In other words, does it run wide if you have throttle on at the beginning of the turn? If it does run wide, how does one handle that later in the turn?

 

CF

[racer]

Sorry, Jay, I was short on time and there were several posts that all seemed to be saying the same wrong thing. Forgive me, I just didn't feel like getting into an argument with three people at once. And there's no sense arguing from a position of being "just some guy" on the internet, so, I referred the subject to someone you will believe, namely Keith Code.

 

I think you've established yourself around here as more than "just some guy on the internet". Just my opinion.

 

Thanks.

 

 

The bottom line is that closing the throttle puts weight on the front tire to allow you to quick turn the bike. The only type of corner where I will still be in the throttle when I make a steering input is a relatively shallow high speed kink or sweeper where I can't really quick turn anyway and maintaining a balanced suspension is more important to carrying speed through the entry than quick turning the bike.

This has been my habit and I've been trying to train it out of myself. Are you now saying that I was making the correct control inputs all along? (error...not processing...error Will Robinson)

 

What has been your habit?

 

 

That said, for "normal" commuting type riding or riding some country road at a relaxed pace, one doesn't really need to "quick turn" the bike and being in the throttle when you bend into a lazy turn is normal. The truth is I quit riding on the street in 1993 and tend to think of everything in terms of high performace riding or racing which requires specific skills and techniques that, while useful in emergency situations on the street, aren't really the norm.

 

I'd like to quote Keith Code in saying, "It doesn't matter what you ride or where you ride, the principles remain the same"

 

Yes, the principles remain the same. A priniciple is something from which specific techniques are derived and applied to fit a specific situation. So, although a principle remains consistent, specific conditions and/or specific goals do not remain consistent. Hence, a specific technique and/or its application does not remain consistent either. They are custom tailored to fit a specific condition or circumstance to achieve a specific goal.

 

Look, whether one is talking about riding motorcycles or almost anything else in life, one cannot simply operate from a standard recipe of rote answers. Like anything, there is no single answer for all possible cirumstances and trying to operate from a set of rote rules will fall short at best and get you into trouble at worst. One must understand the principles and learn to think for oneself to effectively act in any given circumstance.

 

 

I think that performing turn-in at maintenance throttle would work because:

1- The Chassis and suspension are settled

2- No drivetrain lash when getting back in the gas leaned over

 

Yes, it works perfectly well when you are riding at a relatively relaxed pace, rolling into a soft curve on the highway or a backroad somewhere where say you don't need to alter your speed to negotiate the corner. The principles are the same. The specific goals, techniques derived and their application are not.

 

 

I haven't done Lvl1 yet, ...

 

Right.... IMO, you really need to do that. At the end of the day, even reading the books is not really enough. To quote one of my mentors, "Naming is not knowing". You can't merely intellectualize about a complex physical process without real world experience and expect success. Reading a book about building engines is not the same as building an engine. Reading and talking about high performance riding and actually doing it are not the same thing. I believe that if you get yourself to a CSS school and spend some time on track, you will understand the difference and what I am talking about better.

 

 

...so take this with a grain of salt, but isn't that one of the goals of the Throttle Control, no brakes drill? To train the rider to go into the corner at maintenance throttle, ON the gas?

 

No. The goal of the "No Brakes" drill is to help develop one's sense of speed and to help to break a rider's habit of "comfort braking" as Andy Ibbot puts it. "Comfort braking" is the unconscious habit of touching the brakes even when you KNOW you don't need to. Your body just feels better, more secure or "comfortable" doing it.

 

Standard Throttle Control is clearly explained in TOTW II. I don't have a copy handy to quote with page numbers, but, it doesn't say to use "maintenance throttle" when turning in. It does say to get back on the throttle as soon as possible and to smoothly roll on the throttle through the rest of the turn without rolling on and off.

 

r

[Jaybird180]

Okay,...I may be mixing some Nick Ienatsch in there. My bad on the Maintenance throttle, but I'll still look it up in my TOTW.

And yes, I do trackride. I don't get enough tracktime though.

[Jaybird180]

I'd like to quote Keith Code in saying, "It doesn't matter what you ride or where you ride, the principles remain the same"

 

I think that performing turn-in at maintenance throttle would work because:

1- The Chassis and suspension are settled

2- No drivetrain lash when getting back in the gas leaned over

 

I haven't done Lvl1 yet, so take this with a grain of salt, but isn't that one of the goals of the Throttle Control, no brakes drill? To train the rider to go into the corner at maintenance throttle, ON the gas?

 

Thanks Slowass for bringing up your "basic" question. Topics like this help us all.

 

If you roll on the throttle while turning in, or have it on already, then what happens to the line the bike will take? In other words, does it run wide if you have throttle on at the beginning of the turn? If it does run wide, how does one handle that later in the turn?

 

CF

Rolling on at turn-in is not the same as Maintenance Throttle. I will check my reference material.

[Jaybird180]

I'd like to quote Keith Code in saying, "It doesn't matter what you ride or where you ride, the principles remain the same"

 

I think that performing turn-in at maintenance throttle would work because:

1- The Chassis and suspension are settled

2- No drivetrain lash when getting back in the gas leaned over

 

I haven't done Lvl1 yet, so take this with a grain of salt, but isn't that one of the goals of the Throttle Control, no brakes drill? To train the rider to go into the corner at maintenance throttle, ON the gas?

 

Thanks Slowass for bringing up your "basic" question. Topics like this help us all.

 

If you roll on the throttle while turning in, or have it on already, then what happens to the line the bike will take? In other words, does it run wide if you have throttle on at the beginning of the turn? If it does run wide, how does one handle that later in the turn?

 

CF

Rolling on at turn-in is not the same as Maintenance Throttle. I will check my reference material.

http://forums.superbikeschool.com/index.php?showtopic=540

12. Coordinating the exact roll on to stabilize the bike at the brake off/quick flick point. When you drop a bike into a turn quickly there is an optimum opening of the throttle, which maintains good stability through that transition. The focus on this is to see if you can grab the right amount of throttle right away to get that instant stability.

-Keith Code

 

Comments?

[Jaybird180]

Apologies for the double post. Removed

[racer]

And yes, I do trackride. I don't get enough tracktime though.

 

You said you haven't taken a CSS school. That is what I am saying you need to do. Track riding without it is pointless at best and dangerous to yourself and others at worst.

[Jaybird180]

And yes, I do trackride. I don't get enough tracktime though.

 

You said you haven't taken a CSS school. That is what I am saying you need to do. Track riding without it is pointless at best and dangerous to yourself and others at worst.

I never said that I didn't have formalized training, just wasn't CSS. Thank you for the advice but the point of my posting that wasn't to personalize. I think you know that I have a lot of respect for you, but I'd appreciate if we stick to debating the merits/demerits of the ideas and not the credentials of the speaker.

[slowass]

Flippin eck, I didn't realise the question would generate so much debate!!I was refering primarily to track riding, and what was taught at Level 1.Thanks for the advice

[hubbard_28]

Everything here is debated.

 

Rolling into a corner puts extra weight on the front tire, which isn't good if you're dropping the bike into a turn. You need control of the bike. I don't consider TOTW books to be the bible of track riding, and I'm not going to dig through books to quote anything, but what I've read says you have to have a setup speed (or I think that's what it's called), and you won't find anything in TOTW books that says you should coast into a corner. If you are maintaining a speed into a corner you're going to have much better control of said throttle when you start to accelerate out of the turn. Coasting into a corner then applying the throttle while you're leaned over in a corner doesn't really sound very safe.

[Jaybird180]

Everything here is debated.

That's debatable

[racer]

And yes, I do trackride. I don't get enough tracktime though.

 

You said you haven't taken a CSS school. That is what I am saying you need to do. Track riding without it is pointless at best and dangerous to yourself and others at worst.

I never said that I didn't have formalized training, just wasn't CSS. Thank you for the advice but the point of my posting that wasn't to personalize. I think you know that I have a lot of respect for you, but I'd appreciate if we stick to debating the merits/demerits of the ideas and not the credentials of the speaker.

 

? No idea what you are on about.

 

With all due respect, I was simply clarifying what I meant as you apparently misunderstood and put words in my mouth that were not mine. No offense taken.

 

That said, whatever training you have is clearly not as good as CSS. Call it my opinion, I've taken most all the other schools and worked for two of them. Not even in the same league.

[Cobie Fair]

OK, back to one of the points on having the throttle on when entering a turn, and my question: will the bike hold the line, or run a wider at turn entry? It runs wide doesn't it? The more throttle, the wider it would run. That running wide at turn entry, won't it have to be "paid for" later in the turn with more lean angle added?

 

Anyone want to bite on that?

 

C

[racer]

Everything here is debated.

 

Rolling into a corner puts extra weight on the front tire, which isn't good if you're dropping the bike into a turn. You need control of the bike. I don't consider TOTW books to be the bible of track riding, and I'm not going to dig through books to quote anything, but what I've read says you have to have a setup speed (or I think that's what it's called), and you won't find anything in TOTW books that says you should coast into a corner. If you are maintaining a speed into a corner you're going to have much better control of said throttle when you start to accelerate out of the turn. Coasting into a corner then applying the throttle while you're leaned over in a corner doesn't really sound very safe.

 

Nobody said to coast into a corner, Hub.

 

When riding fast enough that you need to brake for a corner, the throttle is off while braking. Right?

 

Then you let off the brake to countersteer the bike and execute a quick turn.

 

Then you get back on the throttle.

 

That is the standard procedure. Ignore it at your own risk.

[racer]

http://forums.superbikeschool.com/index.php?showtopic=540

12. Coordinating the exact roll on to stabilize the bike at the brake off/quick flick point. When you drop a bike into a turn quickly there is an optimum opening of the throttle, which maintains good stability through that transition. The focus on this is to see if you can grab the right amount of throttle right away to get that instant stability.

-Keith Code

 

Comments?

 

I see what you mean. That is a potentially confusing statement and probably could have been written better.

 

I would say that the "transition" Keith is speaking of is from 'off' throttle to 'on' throttle.

 

Not from straight line to leaned over.

 

But, I will let Keith speak for himself.