Hello All....

[racer]

Hay racer I recall a different thread where you offered someone $20 to buy the TOTW book, maybe you should keep the money to buy soft science lol, only joking, its an interesting read though!

LOL

 

I read Soft Science years ago when it first came out, but, I lost my copy and definitely need to replace it! I've obviously forgotten much of what it says.

[Jaybird180]

If you begin the turn in at....say 60mph off-throttle versus 60mph on throttle, why would it make any difference in the turning arc? After this turn is executed, who would be able to got the WOT sooner?

 

Keith has some very good diagrams and explanations in Twist II about this exact point.

 

Read up on the "hook turn" and the idea that the faster you get to full lean the less you need to lean for the rest of the turn.

 

With the front compressed, the the steering angle is steeper, hence the turn in is sharper. Hence, your flick or hook will be tighter and, off gas, you travel less distance than on gas while turning in, hence, by definition, a tighter turn in and less lean angle needed and more speed potential for the rest of the turn at lean.

 

Check it out.

 

PS - We've done the experiments you suggested, ie. trying the turn both on and off gas at turn in... for several decades now. Really. We aren't just guessing or playing what if games. We know the answer.

 

Just trying to help.

 

r

Hate to rehash but see pt #12. That's all I was trying to say

http://forums.superbikeschool.com/index.php?showtopic=540

[racer]

Hate to rehash but see pt #12. That's all I was trying to say

http://forums.superbikeschool.com/index.php?showtopic=540

Jay,

 

I still do not have a copy of Soft Science. If someone out there has a copy, please search it for references to raising the idle and why one would do that. Allegedly it is in there and might have some bearing here. Otherwise...

 

I (and Cobie) already explained this. AFAIK, you are misinterpreting what Keith is trying to say in point #12. It boils down to the use of the word "at" in the first sentence. I think it would read better if he said "after". Interpreting it as cracking the throttle during the flick goes against everything I have ever heard him say or teach and everything I have learned and experienced in over a decade of racing. Unless Keith drops in and explains it differently, that is what I am going with.

 

Here is point #12 with added emphasis and clarification to help you understand what I believe Keith is saying:

 

12. Coordinating the exact roll on to stabilize the bike [after] the brake off/quick flick point. When you drop a bike into a turn quickly there is an optimum opening of the throttle, which maintains good stability through that transition***. The focus on this is to see if you can grab the right amount of throttle right away [after the quick flick/drop in point] to get that instant stability.

 

*** The transition I believe Keith is referring to is the "exact roll on", the transition from being 'off' the throttle to being 'on' the throttle. That is the subject of the whole paragraph: "coordinating the exact roll on". I do not think he is saying that there is an optimum open state of the throttle (ie. maintenance throttle) when you drop a bike into a turn quickly. He is saying that the intial "cracking" of the throttle is very important to maintain stability, ie. not whack it open, not throw all the weight rearward at once. But rather smoothly transferring weight. Everything I have learned says you do not want to be on the gas when you drop a bike quickly into a turn.

 

That said, I could be completely wrong. However, if Keith is saying you should have the equivalent of 3000 rpm idle craked on when you flick the bike... well... When you raise the idle, what you are doing is opening the butterfly throttle valves more. The amount of movement it takes to get that idle to raise 2000 rpm at idle is TINY. Very small. 2-3 millimeters of rotation. Try to do it with your hand. Stand next to your idling bike and using the throttle, raise the idle to 3000 rpm. Hold it there.

 

Can you do it? Can you do it whenthebikeisonthefrontwheelwithahandfulofbrakeatsixtymilesperhourrightafteryouf

inishdownshiftingandbeforeyoucountersteer? Because reading that sentence is about what it feels like at race speed. I honestly don't think I am capable of accurately cracking the throttle 2-3 mm and holding it there as I quick flick drop the bike into a corner at speed. And I still think the idle raising is about being able to smoothly transition to on the gas. It's possible that a tiny amount of gas wouldn't affect the engine braking at speed very much, hence the fork will still collapse and not affect the turn in hook. I guess. And doing that might also allow more overall traction due to weight distribution IF the fork still collapses all the way and you still get your hook.

 

And that is the only thing I can think of. Which is exactly what I said before. So... why don't you send Keith a personal message and ask him?

 

racer

[Jaybird180]

Hate to rehash but see pt #12. That's all I was trying to say

http://forums.superbikeschool.com/index.php?showtopic=540

Jay,

 

I still do not have a copy of Soft Science. If someone out there has a copy, please search it for references to raising the idle and why one would do that. Allegedly it is in there and might have some bearing here. Otherwise...

 

I (and Cobie) already explained this. AFAIK, you are misinterpreting what Keith is trying to say in point #12. It boils down to the use of the word "at" in the first sentence. I think it would read better if he said "after". Interpreting it as cracking the throttle during the flick goes against everything I have ever heard him say or teach and everything I have learned and experienced in over a decade of racing. Unless Keith drops in and explains it differently, that is what I am going with.

 

Here is point #12 with added emphasis and clarification to help you understand what I believe Keith is saying:

 

12. Coordinating the exact roll on to stabilize the bike [after] the brake off/quick flick point. When you drop a bike into a turn quickly there is an optimum opening of the throttle, which maintains good stability through that transition***. The focus on this is to see if you can grab the right amount of throttle right away [after the quick flick/drop in point] to get that instant stability.

 

*** The transition I believe Keith is referring to is the "exact roll on", the transition from being 'off' the throttle to being 'on' the throttle. That is the subject of the whole paragraph: "coordinating the exact roll on". I do not think he is saying that there is an optimum open state of the throttle (ie. maintenance throttle) when you drop a bike into a turn quickly. He is saying that the intial "cracking" of the throttle is very important to maintain stability, ie. not whack it open, not throw all the weight rearward at once. But rather smoothly transferring weight. You do not want to be on the gas when you drop a bike quickly into a turn.

 

That said, I could be completely wrong. If Keith is saying you should have the equivalent of 3000 rpm idle craked on when you flick the bike... well... When you raise the idle, what you are doing is opening the butterfly throttle valves more. The amount of movement it takes to get that idle to raise 2000 rpm at idle is TINY. Very small. 2-3 millimeters of rotation. Try to do it with your hand. Stand next to your idling bike and using the throttle, raise the idle to 3000 rpm. Hold it there.

 

Can you do it? Can you do it whenthebikeisonthefrontwheelwithahandfulofbrakeatsixtymilesperhourrightafteryouf

inishdownshiftingandbeforeyoucountersteer? Because reading that sentence is about what it feels like at race speed. I honestly don't think I am capable of accurately cracking the throttle 2-3 mm and holding it there as I quick flick drop the bike into a corner at speed.

 

And that is the only thing I can think of. Which is exactly what I said before. So... why don't you send Keith a personal message and ask him?

 

racer

 

I don't disagree with the explanation, however as previously stated: difficulty of implementation is not a factor in deciding if an idea is good and the principle is sound. However, someone posted a good reply (sorry if I forget the name, not giving credit isn't intentional) that stated that maintenance throttle worked for him until he got faster, then it became an obstacle to quicker flicks.

 

Again, I'm not desirous of rehashing it again. I'll let you know if it becomes an obstacle for me when I pickup more corner speed. Or maybe I'll just raise my idle like many, many successful racers do (that's a hint).

 

I did take your advice and PM'd Mr. Code. If he made an error that needs correction, then he will (perhaps)

[racer]

I don't disagree with the explanation, however as previously stated: difficulty of implementation is not a factor in deciding if an idea is good and the principle is sound. However, someone posted a good reply (sorry if I forget the name, not giving credit isn't intentional) that stated that maintenance throttle worked for him until he got faster, then it became an obstacle to quicker flicks.

 

Again, I'm not desirous of rehashing it again. I'll let you know if it becomes an obstacle for me when I pickup more corner speed. Or maybe I'll just raise my idle like many, many successful racers do (that's a hint).

 

I did take your advice and PM'd Mr. Code. If he made an error that needs correction, then he will (perhaps)

 

Why did you rehash it if you didn't want to rehash it?

 

In any case, you addressed the post/question to me. I figured I didn't explain it well enough last time. Next time I'll know better and just send you a link to a previous post... lol.

 

How do you figure difficulty of implementation is not a factor in deciding to use it? Um... what?

 

And yes, it was ME who answered you in the very first reply that maintenance throttle in the way you described it was good for slow lazy turns but would make a quick flick impossible. Maybe you should re-read the thread and that way you won't need to re-hash things... lol.

[Jaybird180]

I don't disagree with the explanation, however as previously stated: difficulty of implementation is not a factor in deciding if an idea is good and the principle is sound. However, someone posted a good reply (sorry if I forget the name, not giving credit isn't intentional) that stated that maintenance throttle worked for him until he got faster, then it became an obstacle to quicker flicks.

 

Again, I'm not desirous of rehashing it again. I'll let you know if it becomes an obstacle for me when I pickup more corner speed. Or maybe I'll just raise my idle like many, many successful racers do (that's a hint).

 

I did take your advice and PM'd Mr. Code. If he made an error that needs correction, then he will (perhaps)

 

Why did you rehash it if you didn't want to rehash it?

 

In any case, you addressed the post/question to me. I figured I didn't explain it well enough last time. Next time I'll know better and just send you a link to a previous post... lol.

 

How do you figure difficulty of implementation is not a factor in deciding to use it? Um... what?

 

And yes, it was ME who answered you in the very first reply that maintenance throttle in the way you described it was good for slow lazy turns but would make a quick flick impossible. Maybe you should re-read the thread and that way you won't need to re-hash things... lol.

 

Racer, the post wasn't directed at you per se, but you was willing to debate the opposing side with me and for that I thank you and Cobie. It's very often and necessary that the truth is sifted out of vigorous debate until we're left with definitive yes/no answers.

 

It was HOTFOOT's post #23 that I was referring to that I think helped me to see your and Cobie's explanation a bit better.

 

And yes, I stand behind what I said about difficulty. Do we give up becuse it's difficult? If that were the case there would be no glory in a championship or working hard to be the best at anything.

[racer]

Racer, the post wasn't directed at you per se, but you was willing to debate the opposing side with me and for that I thank you and Cobie. It's very often and necessary that the truth is sifted out of vigorous debate until we're left with definitive yes/no answers.

 

It was HOTFOOT's post #23 that I was referring to that I think helped me to see your and Cobie's explanation a bit better.

 

And yes, I stand behind what I said about difficulty. Do we give up becuse it's difficult? If that were the case there would be no glory in a championship or working hard to be the best at anything.

 

LOL

 

Vigorous refusal to accept the answer does not constitute debate.

[Keith Code]

Rolling on at turn-in is not the same as Maintenance Throttle. I will check my reference material.

http://forums.superbikeschool.com/index.php?showtopic=540

12. Coordinating the exact roll on to stabilize the bike at the brake off/quick flick point. When you drop a bike into a turn quickly there is an optimum opening of the throttle, which maintains good stability through that transition. The focus on this is to see if you can grab the right amount of throttle right away to get that instant stability.

-Keith Code

 

Comments?

 

That quote is a sequence, "brake off/quick flick point", that means that both actions are completed Which means the bike is at the lean angle the rider feels will get it through the corner, steering is completed at that point. The words are in relation to the moment the rider gets back to the gas after the flick in. Does he crack it open 2mm, 3mm, 4mm or 10mm, etc. That all has to do with how fast he is going and how much the suspension compressed as he flicked it into the turn. A really quick flick may require that initial throttle opening to be a bit larger than if he had only moderately flicked it into the turn. Done perfectly, you get a seamless entry and transition from the flick to the gas.

 

Keith

[Jaybird180]

Are the concepts of "cracking the throttle" (2-10mm) and rolling on the throttle (TC Rule #1) immediately after turn-in two SEPARATE ideas? When does one end and the other begin? If they are not separate ideas, why have two ways of explaining the same concept (get on the gas)?

[Kevin Kane]

Are the concepts of "cracking the throttle" (2-10mm) and rolling on the throttle (TC Rule #1) immediately after turn-in two SEPARATE ideas? When does one end and the other begin? If they are not separate ideas, why have two ways of explaining the same concept (get on the gas)?

Jay;

The "cracking the throttle" is the first step of "rolling on the throttle" isn't is? They are no more separate than a first step is part of a journey...at least that's how I have always interpreted Rule #1.

 

Kevin

[Jaybird180]

Are the concepts of "cracking the throttle" (2-10mm) and rolling on the throttle (TC Rule #1) immediately after turn-in two SEPARATE ideas? When does one end and the other begin? If they are not separate ideas, why have two ways of explaining the same concept (get on the gas)?

Jay;

The "cracking the throttle" is the first step of "rolling on the throttle" isn't is? They are no more separate than a first step is part of a journey...at least that's how I have always interpreted Rule #1.

 

Kevin

I'll let that one marinate, but if someone else wants to chime in please do so.

[Cobie Fair]

Cracking it on, taking it just from the off position. Then rolling it on. But there is also when does the drive begin, when one is no longer critically concerned with stabilizing the bike, but getting out of the turn well.

[hubbard_28]

Alright. I have to say this, probably one of the few times anyone will hear it on this forum. I WAS WRONG!!! It happens a lot, so don't get to excited, but let me explain.

I was of the argument that I am at a "maintenance" throttle going into the corner. I even went out by my house and practiced on a small road, and found more comfort doing it (I don't ride the same when I'm not on the track, completely different form). I went into corners not on the gas, and got nervous doing so.

I was at the track yesterday (and will have next Sunday to work on it as well) and found that I'm NOT on the throttle going into corners. I did my thing and paid attention and found that the only time I'm on the throttle in a corner is when I'm in the carousel, a 180 degree turn. I never realized it, and when I further investigated it, I noticed that I AM on the throttle just shy of apexing.

Brings up a question. Should I wait until the apex to start accelerating? After the apex?

It changed quite a few things for me, and I'm excited to have something else to work on. I spent my first YEAR working on BP, and now everyone who started with and after me are much faster because things like this weren't even on my mind. I am, however, very good at BP.

[Jaybird180]

Brings up a question. Should I wait until the apex to start accelerating? After the apex?

If it's one thing that we've all agreed upon here it's get on the gas, gas, gas as soon as you can, can, can.

[Derek Sauder]

Brings up a question. Should I wait until the apex to start accelerating? After the apex?

If it's one thing that we've all agreed upon here it's get on the gas, gas, gas as soon as you can, can, can.

 

 

You want to get on the gas as soon as possible. There is no specific point in a turn. And remember, the quicker you turn the bike, the sooner you are able to get on the gas.

[Cobie Fair]

Alright. I have to say this, probably one of the few times anyone will hear it on this forum. I WAS WRONG!!! It happens a lot, so don't get to excited, but let me explain.

I was of the argument that I am at a "maintenance" throttle going into the corner. I even went out by my house and practiced on a small road, and found more comfort doing it (I don't ride the same when I'm not on the track, completely different form). I went into corners not on the gas, and got nervous doing so.

I was at the track yesterday (and will have next Sunday to work on it as well) and found that I'm NOT on the throttle going into corners. I did my thing and paid attention and found that the only time I'm on the throttle in a corner is when I'm in the carousel, a 180 degree turn. I never realized it, and when I further investigated it, I noticed that I AM on the throttle just shy of apexing.

Brings up a question. Should I wait until the apex to start accelerating? After the apex?

It changed quite a few things for me, and I'm excited to have something else to work on. I spent my first YEAR working on BP, and now everyone who started with and after me are much faster because things like this weren't even on my mind. I am, however, very good at BP.

 

Hubbard,

 

I'd missed this post, but very cool that you figured this out. One thing not everyone is good at (or willing to do) is go out and try stuff and observe what happens, despite other ideas. I think it's part of Keith's talent is isolating what riders (and the bike) is actually doing.

[Jaybird180]

That quote is a sequence, "brake off/quick flick point", that means that both actions are completed Which means the bike is at the lean angle the rider feels will get it through the corner, steering is completed at that point. The words are in relation to the moment the rider gets back to the gas after the flick in. Does he crack it open 2mm, 3mm, 4mm or 10mm, etc. That all has to do with how fast he is going and how much the suspension compressed as he flicked it into the turn. A really quick flick may require that initial throttle opening to be a bit larger than if he had only moderately flicked it into the turn. Done perfectly, you get a seamless entry and transition from the flick to the gas.

 

Keith

Does approaching the turn point with constant throttle work? Why or why not?

 

It has been suggested that you have advocated increasing idle speed, which has the effect of producing the same result (entry stability), with the added benefit of less work for the right hand. Do you advocate this and under what circumstances?

[Cobie Fair]

That quote is a sequence, "brake off/quick flick point", that means that both actions are completed Which means the bike is at the lean angle the rider feels will get it through the corner, steering is completed at that point. The words are in relation to the moment the rider gets back to the gas after the flick in. Does he crack it open 2mm, 3mm, 4mm or 10mm, etc. That all has to do with how fast he is going and how much the suspension compressed as he flicked it into the turn. A really quick flick may require that initial throttle opening to be a bit larger than if he had only moderately flicked it into the turn. Done perfectly, you get a seamless entry and transition from the flick to the gas.

 

Keith

Does approaching the turn point with constant throttle work? Why or why not?

 

It has been suggested that you have advocated increasing idle speed, which has the effect of producing the same result (entry stability), with the added benefit of less work for the right hand. Do you advocate this and under what circumstances?

 

Is your question to Keith?

[Keith Code]

That quote is a sequence, "brake off/quick flick point", that means that both actions are completed Which means the bike is at the lean angle the rider feels will get it through the corner, steering is completed at that point. The words are in relation to the moment the rider gets back to the gas after the flick in. Does he crack it open 2mm, 3mm, 4mm or 10mm, etc. That all has to do with how fast he is going and how much the suspension compressed as he flicked it into the turn. A really quick flick may require that initial throttle opening to be a bit larger than if he had only moderately flicked it into the turn. Done perfectly, you get a seamless entry and transition from the flick to the gas.

 

Keith

Does approaching the turn point with constant throttle work? Why or why not?

 

It has been suggested that you have advocated increasing idle speed, which has the effect of producing the same result (entry stability), with the added benefit of less work for the right hand. Do you advocate this and under what circumstances?

 

J,

 

When you say constant throttle it is a question of degree of throttle opening. If you had the gas on a quarter turn, you'd experience a good deal of difficulty turning the bike, in that case it would be too stable. When we talk about turning up the idle, it is like the very first tiny crack open of the throttle, enough to bring it up to 3,000 or so. That doesn't really have a huge effect on entry stability, the bike is after all slowing down and weight is still transferred forward, just a little less than usual. The other key point is that it makes the transition from off the gas to back on the gas a little easier and buys you a moment of time to feel the speed of the bike. That "moment" can scrub off a lot of speed at a normal idle speed. With it set higher the speed still goes down but not quite as fast. It is another way to trick yourself into improving your turn entry speed. Another advantage of using the technique is that there will be slightly less slack in the chain so getting back to the gas is a little bit easier, a little bit smoother transition.

 

 

 

 

 

Keith

[Jaybird180]

That quote is a sequence, "brake off/quick flick point", that means that both actions are completed Which means the bike is at the lean angle the rider feels will get it through the corner, steering is completed at that point. The words are in relation to the moment the rider gets back to the gas after the flick in. Does he crack it open 2mm, 3mm, 4mm or 10mm, etc. That all has to do with how fast he is going and how much the suspension compressed as he flicked it into the turn. A really quick flick may require that initial throttle opening to be a bit larger than if he had only moderately flicked it into the turn. Done perfectly, you get a seamless entry and transition from the flick to the gas.

 

Keith

Does approaching the turn point with constant throttle work? Why or why not?

 

It has been suggested that you have advocated increasing idle speed, which has the effect of producing the same result (entry stability), with the added benefit of less work for the right hand. Do you advocate this and under what circumstances?

 

J,

 

When you say constant throttle it is a question of degree of throttle opening. If you had the gas on a quarter turn, you'd experience a good deal of difficulty turning the bike, in that case it would be too stable. When we talk about turning up the idle, it is like the very first tiny crack open of the throttle, enough to bring it up to 3,000 or so. That doesn't really have a huge effect on entry stability, the bike is after all slowing down and weight is still transferred forward, just a little less than usual. The other key point is that it makes the transition from off the gas to back on the gas a little easier and buys you a moment of time to feel the speed of the bike. That "moment" can scrub off a lot of speed at a normal idle speed. With it set higher the speed still goes down but not quite as fast. It is another way to trick yourself into improving your turn entry speed. Another advantage of using the technique is that there will be slightly less slack in the chain so getting back to the gas is a little bit easier, a little bit smoother transition.

 

 

 

 

 

Keith

Thank you for validating that.