Reference Points

[acebobby]

OK I am starting this thread due to a short discussion Cobie and I had on another thread as I did not want to change the subject on that other thread!

What is a reference point to you? I can ride faster on tracks with more hazzards e.g. trees,,fences, walls surrounding the track than one with alot of run off area, this may sound crazy as it would obviously hurt alot more if I made a mistake! I never really thought about it until recently and came to the conclusion that I must be using these hazzards as RP's, it makes sense that a huge tree, or where a wall begins or whatever would make a good RP, but what about on a track with lots of run off area, lots of space but not alot to look at, where do you find your RP's, here? What would you use as an RP? Without using cones as an example, what sort of things do you use?

[fire337]

The closest track to me is like that. It is flat with nothing but open field right near the track. I personally use different marks on the track itself. Some of them are skid marks, some are gouges in the pavement from wrecks, some are just discolored spots. It definitely makes things different when it is all flat but if you look around enough you can find more then enough spots to use as reference points on a track.

[hubbard_28]

Repaved areas, seams, apexes, end of a straight, next apex point after a corner. There are a large number of RP's that I never realized I used until this discussion.

[stuman]

I try to use stuff on the track when ever possible. If the track is totally clean I'll look for something right next to the track. Looking for something more distant is a last resort but sometimes you have not choice.

[acebobby]

OK these are some good answers and when I do my level 2 in 2009 i'm sure it will become a little bit more clear to me, this subject is of interest to me and I think it may be effecting my riding in such a way that I am seeking out R.Ps but maybe not using them correctly, or maybe I need more.

On a school day the X marks your turn point but in reality the X does not exist and you would be lucky to find such a conveniently placed R.P so say I find a mark on the track a few feet before where I want to turn, how do I use it correctly so that I am turning at the same spot every lap?

Do I find something else in my peripheral vision during the two-step and use that or does it become a timing issue?

[hubbard_28]

The track cones usually offer the best starting point. I always start with the cones, find my RP's from there, and tweek them as necessary. There is one carousel that I keep working on that I just changed my RP on last trackday, and I've found another new point that lets me keep my line tighter. I've even noticed since using my points that they do have different places they put the cones on a couple corners.

[Cobie Fair]

OK these are some good answers and when I do my level 2 in 2009 i'm sure it will become a little bit more clear to me, this subject is of interest to me and I think it may be effecting my riding in such a way that I am seeking out R.Ps but maybe not using them correctly, or maybe I need more.

On a school day the X marks your turn point but in reality the X does not exist and you would be lucky to find such a conveniently placed R.P so say I find a mark on the track a few feet before where I want to turn, how do I use it correctly so that I am turning at the same spot every lap?

Do I find something else in my peripheral vision during the two-step and use that or does it become a timing issue?

 

Every use an RP by judging how far you are from it, say the white line or edge of the road/track?

[steph1000]

ok im in trouble here....on long high speed straights i use a RP but all the other turns i dont hink i do...hmmm..i slow down looking at the apex and get the turn done..weird..

[acebobby]

OK these are some good answers and when I do my level 2 in 2009 i'm sure it will become a little bit more clear to me, this subject is of interest to me and I think it may be effecting my riding in such a way that I am seeking out R.Ps but maybe not using them correctly, or maybe I need more.

On a school day the X marks your turn point but in reality the X does not exist and you would be lucky to find such a conveniently placed R.P so say I find a mark on the track a few feet before where I want to turn, how do I use it correctly so that I am turning at the same spot every lap?

Do I find something else in my peripheral vision during the two-step and use that or does it become a timing issue?

 

Every use an RP by judging how far you are from it, say the white line or edge of the road/track?

 

 

OK I have read that racers can consistently ride around a track going over the same part of tarmac, within an inch or so lap after lap, what do they look at?

I can see how you could use the edge of the track to judge your location regarding the width of the track, so knowing where I want to be width wise is covered, Say I ride along 3ft from the edge of the track down a straight, I use a rock at the track side as my on brake marker, get to the corner and can find nothing to indicate a turn point, I try to do the two-step, I see where I want to go but have nothing in my peripheral vision to tell me when to turn, this results in me peeling in a little earlier than I would have liked, basically blowing that corner, this is just an example of a situation where I need something solid to indicate my turn point, could I use the edge of the track in this situation, as in quick turn 5ft before you would run of the track,

I know this subject is covered in both the TOTW books but I am keen to know what you all do or use as R.Ps,

Is finding R.Ps the first thing you would do when riding a new track?

[Cobie Fair]

Getting a turn point set is about the first thing I work on. If that is done, the rest can get sorted out. Just about every track has something that can be used, something one can look at. What if the RP is not right where you want it to be, but could be judged as being some distance from something. For example, let's say there is a decreasing radius turn, and you know you have to have a late apex there. Could a rider simply judge how far he was away from the apex, could that be a reference?

 

Cobie

[acebobby]

Getting a turn point set is about the first thing I work on. If that is done, the rest can get sorted out. Just about every track has something that can be used, something one can look at. What if the RP is not right where you want it to be, but could be judged as being some distance from something. For example, let's say there is a decreasing radius turn, and you know you have to have a late apex there. Could a rider simply judge how far he was away from the apex, could that be a reference?

 

Cobie

 

I think that could work, thinking of it now I think I have been spoiled by having cones at the track side and have become used to looking for something there, say on a right hand turn I am always looking for something at the left side of the track to put into my peripheral vision to use the two-step. I never thought of things at the inside for some strange reason nor did I think of using the apex! I will work on this next opportunity I get!

 

thanks

B

[steph1000]

Getting a turn point set is about the first thing I work on. If that is done, the rest can get sorted out. Just about every track has something that can be used, something one can look at. What if the RP is not right where you want it to be, but could be judged as being some distance from something. For example, let's say there is a decreasing radius turn, and you know you have to have a late apex there. Could a rider simply judge how far he was away from the apex, could that be a reference?

 

Cobie

 

 

good point...does that mean that a reference point could be where you are at that moment on the track meaning the feel of where you are and speed youre at???

[Cobie Fair]

good point...does that mean that a reference point could be where you are at that moment on the track meaning the feel of where you are and speed youre at???

 

An RP has to be something one can use, in other words, what gives one the "feel" for where they are?

 

C

[Bones]

The first things I do when riding a new track? Which direction and what's the lap record (sorry ... very old joke). Actually, before I even get to the new track, I try to find information on the internet (track diagram and video footage), a lot easier now days.

 

If I can, I usually find someone to lead me for a few laps, or tag behind someone on their warm-up lap as they exit the pits. So this usually gives me a few laps to find out the characteristics of the track, and a gentle introduction. Also to keep in mind, I'm not going for the lap record in the first session (honest). So, I'm pretty much traveling around at about 75% of effort. Giving me plenty of change from my $10. If survival reactions are kicking in, then I need to back off a little more.

 

How do I know that I don't have a Reference Point? I experience a waiting-for-something-to-happen feeling, or I get a searching-hunting-apprehension feeling and I don't get much change (if anything) from my $10 of attention.

 

The only bad Reference Point, is none at all! Any Reference Point is better than none.

 

Personally, Reference Points are to be either on the track or just off (some tracks have distance markers to the corners for braking). As mentioned previously (and in TOTW books) there are plenty of things you can use as Reference Points. Not all of my Reference Points are absolute (exactly where I want), so it maybe a few feet from my Physical Reference. My criteria for a good Physical Reference Point is that it is easy to see/find from a distance, and not take too much of my attention to re-locate and I can consistantly use it.

 

Example at 75% effort (as I need enough attention left over to have some awareness) : Turn 1, very fast right hander after a long straight. Locate the second last

braking marker (a sign with '100'), locate a turn point (start of outstide curbing); downshift at braking marker, turn at the start of curbing about 1 foot from the edge of the track. The result was the entry speed was OK (no Survival Reactions kick off). But was off the gas, the bike going wide and had to correct with a steering change. The turn point was way too early. Next lap, keep braking marker and keep the start of the curbing, but, now I'm going to turn 4 feet past it. So my Physical Reference Point is still the start of the curbing, and my turn point is 4 feet past it. The result is I'm still turning in too early. Next lap, keep braking marker, but now turn 8 feet past the start of the curbing. But, as I approach the corner, as I pick my turn point (8 feet past the start of the curb), I can see there is a Physical Reference Point near where I want to now turn (the start of a skid mark), this is now my Physical Reference Point. So I keep my Physical Reference Points until I can find something better.

 

Cheers

[acebobby]

The first things I do when riding a new track? Which direction and what's the lap record (sorry ... very old joke). Actually, before I even get to the new track, I try to find information on the internet (track diagram and video footage), a lot easier now days.

 

If I can, I usually find someone to lead me for a few laps, or tag behind someone on their warm-up lap as they exit the pits. So this usually gives me a few laps to find out the characteristics of the track, and a gentle introduction. Also to keep in mind, I'm not going for the lap record in the first session (honest). So, I'm pretty much traveling around at about 75% of effort. Giving me plenty of change from my $10. If survival reactions are kicking in, then I need to back off a little more.

 

How do I know that I don't have a Reference Point? I experience a waiting-for-something-to-happen feeling, or I get a searching-hunting-apprehension feeling and I don't get much change (if anything) from my $10 of attention.

 

The only bad Reference Point, is none at all! Any Reference Point is better than none.

 

Personally, Reference Points are to be either on the track or just off (some tracks have distance markers to the corners for braking). As mentioned previously (and in TOTW books) there are plenty of things you can use as Reference Points. Not all of my Reference Points are absolute (exactly where I want), so it maybe a few feet from my Physical Reference. My criteria for a good Physical Reference Point is that it is easy to see/find from a distance, and not take too much of my attention to re-locate and I can consistantly use it.

 

Example at 75% effort (as I need enough attention left over to have some awareness) : Turn 1, very fast right hander after a long straight. Locate the second last

braking marker (a sign with '100'), locate a turn point (start of outstide curbing); downshift at braking marker, turn at the start of curbing about 1 foot from the edge of the track. The result was the entry speed was OK (no Survival Reactions kick off). But was off the gas, the bike going wide and had to correct with a steering change. The turn point was way too early. Next lap, keep braking marker and keep the start of the curbing, but, now I'm going to turn 4 feet past it. So my Physical Reference Point is still the start of the curbing, and my turn point is 4 feet past it. The result is I'm still turning in too early. Next lap, keep braking marker, but now turn 8 feet past the start of the curbing. But, as I approach the corner, as I pick my turn point (8 feet past the start of the curb), I can see there is a Physical Reference Point near where I want to now turn (the start of a skid mark), this is now my Physical Reference Point. So I keep my Physical Reference Points until I can find something better.

 

Cheers

 

 

Thanks bones, thats a well explained write up on how you find and use reference points! I am looking forward to getting back on track and working on this.

 

cheers

B

[Jaybird180]

The first things I do when riding a new track? Which direction and what's the lap record (sorry ... very old joke). Actually, before I even get to the new track, I try to find information on the internet (track diagram and video footage), a lot easier now days.

 

If I can, I usually find someone to lead me for a few laps, or tag behind someone on their warm-up lap as they exit the pits. So this usually gives me a few laps to find out the characteristics of the track, and a gentle introduction. Also to keep in mind, I'm not going for the lap record in the first session (honest). So, I'm pretty much traveling around at about 75% of effort. Giving me plenty of change from my $10. If survival reactions are kicking in, then I need to back off a little more.

 

How do I know that I don't have a Reference Point? I experience a waiting-for-something-to-happen feeling, or I get a searching-hunting-apprehension feeling and I don't get much change (if anything) from my $10 of attention.

 

The only bad Reference Point, is none at all! Any Reference Point is better than none.

 

Personally, Reference Points are to be either on the track or just off (some tracks have distance markers to the corners for braking). As mentioned previously (and in TOTW books) there are plenty of things you can use as Reference Points. Not all of my Reference Points are absolute (exactly where I want), so it maybe a few feet from my Physical Reference. My criteria for a good Physical Reference Point is that it is easy to see/find from a distance, and not take too much of my attention to re-locate and I can consistantly use it.

 

Example at 75% effort (as I need enough attention left over to have some awareness) : Turn 1, very fast right hander after a long straight. Locate the second last

braking marker (a sign with '100'), locate a turn point (start of outstide curbing); downshift at braking marker, turn at the start of curbing about 1 foot from the edge of the track. The result was the entry speed was OK (no Survival Reactions kick off). But was off the gas, the bike going wide and had to correct with a steering change. The turn point was way too early. Next lap, keep braking marker and keep the start of the curbing, but, now I'm going to turn 4 feet past it. So my Physical Reference Point is still the start of the curbing, and my turn point is 4 feet past it. The result is I'm still turning in too early. Next lap, keep braking marker, but now turn 8 feet past the start of the curbing. But, as I approach the corner, as I pick my turn point (8 feet past the start of the curb), I can see there is a Physical Reference Point near where I want to now turn (the start of a skid mark), this is now my Physical Reference Point. So I keep my Physical Reference Points until I can find something better.

 

Cheers

 

 

Thanks bones, thats a well explained write up on how you find and use reference points! I am looking forward to getting back on track and working on this.

 

cheers

B

Agreed on the good write-up

[steph1000]

good point...does that mean that a reference point could be where you are at that moment on the track meaning the feel of where you are and speed youre at???

 

An RP has to be something one can use, in other words, what gives one the "feel" for where they are?

 

C

 

 

 

depth perception or looking far ahead at the turn"apex"

[isolter]

The first things I do when riding a new track? Which direction and what's the lap record (sorry ... very old joke). Actually, before I even get to the new track, I try to find information on the internet (track diagram and video footage), a lot easier now days.

 

If I can, I usually find someone to lead me for a few laps, or tag behind someone on their warm-up lap as they exit the pits. So this usually gives me a few laps to find out the characteristics of the track, and a gentle introduction. Also to keep in mind, I'm not going for the lap record in the first session (honest). So, I'm pretty much traveling around at about 75% of effort. Giving me plenty of change from my $10. If survival reactions are kicking in, then I need to back off a little more.

 

How do I know that I don't have a Reference Point? I experience a waiting-for-something-to-happen feeling, or I get a searching-hunting-apprehension feeling and I don't get much change (if anything) from my $10 of attention.

 

The only bad Reference Point, is none at all! Any Reference Point is better than none.

 

Personally, Reference Points are to be either on the track or just off (some tracks have distance markers to the corners for braking). As mentioned previously (and in TOTW books) there are plenty of things you can use as Reference Points. Not all of my Reference Points are absolute (exactly where I want), so it maybe a few feet from my Physical Reference. My criteria for a good Physical Reference Point is that it is easy to see/find from a distance, and not take too much of my attention to re-locate and I can consistantly use it.

 

Example at 75% effort (as I need enough attention left over to have some awareness) : Turn 1, very fast right hander after a long straight. Locate the second last

braking marker (a sign with '100'), locate a turn point (start of outstide curbing); downshift at braking marker, turn at the start of curbing about 1 foot from the edge of the track. The result was the entry speed was OK (no Survival Reactions kick off). But was off the gas, the bike going wide and had to correct with a steering change. The turn point was way too early. Next lap, keep braking marker and keep the start of the curbing, but, now I'm going to turn 4 feet past it. So my Physical Reference Point is still the start of the curbing, and my turn point is 4 feet past it. The result is I'm still turning in too early. Next lap, keep braking marker, but now turn 8 feet past the start of the curbing. But, as I approach the corner, as I pick my turn point (8 feet past the start of the curb), I can see there is a Physical Reference Point near where I want to now turn (the start of a skid mark), this is now my Physical Reference Point. So I keep my Physical Reference Points until I can find something better.

 

Cheers

 

Absolutely the best explanation of RP's and how to really use them. Thanks a lot!

[hubbard_28]

How do I know that I don't have a Reference Point? I experience a waiting-for-something-to-happen feeling, or I get a searching-hunting-apprehension feeling and I don't get much change (if anything) from my $10 of attention.

 

The only bad Reference Point, is none at all! Any Reference Point is better than none.

 

Great information. Even if I have a bad RP I can get around a corner consistently, even if it's slower. It took 8 months riding a certain track before I realized I didn't have an RP for one corner. Once I realized this I found an RP, have since tweeked it, and have even found that this is a MUCH faster and shorter corner.

And when I have no RP, I am choppy, sloppy, and inconsistent through that particular corner.

[Bones]

How do I know that I don't have a Reference Point? I experience a waiting-for-something-to-happen feeling, or I get a searching-hunting-apprehension feeling and I don't get much change (if anything) from my $10 of attention.

 

The only bad Reference Point, is none at all! Any Reference Point is better than none.

 

Great information. Even if I have a bad RP I can get around a corner consistently, even if it's slower. It took 8 months riding a certain track before I realized I didn't have an RP for one corner. Once I realized this I found an RP, have since tweeked it, and have even found that this is a MUCH faster and shorter corner.

And when I have no RP, I am choppy, sloppy, and inconsistent through that particular corner.

 

Thanks for adding some needed clarity to my rambling. I believe that consistency is a key to confidence.

 

If only I could bottle "confidence" and sell it on the internet

 

Cheers

[Cobie Fair]

OK, I'm going to press you guys a little on this one.

 

Could a rider get around a turn (say even going slowly) without any RP's?

 

C

[steph1000]

OK, I'm going to press you guys a little on this one.

 

Could a rider get around a turn (say even going slowly) without any RP's?

 

C

 

 

you need to be looking at something or feeling where youre at so i would say yes you need somekind of rps otherwise you would keep on going straight

[hubbard_28]

Absolutely can. There is no consistency though. It would be a continuous weak corner on the track, and riding at a high percentile pace would be potentially disasterous.

[Cobie Fair]

Absolutely can. There is no consistency though. It would be a continuous weak corner on the track, and riding at a high percentile pace would be potentially disasterous.

 

Here's a point on this: how can one go through a turn (and not run off the track) without some kind of reference?

[Jaybird180]

Absolutely can. There is no consistency though. It would be a continuous weak corner on the track, and riding at a high percentile pace would be potentially disasterous.

 

Here's a point on this: how can one go through a turn (and not run off the track) without some kind of reference?

There is no such thing as "no" reference. It may not be where you want it to be, but it's there. For example, the inside of the turn is a HUGE reference. Your eyes can see the curvature of the turn and the imaginary line extending to that from the "you are here" marker in your brain. The edge of the track (probably outside of the turn) is another reference.