hubbard_28 Posted January 9, 2009 Report Share Posted January 9, 2009 Derek, I'll try to come up/find a definition that we can agree upon, and we can change it as necessary. I do siting laps in the morning, but am checking overrun area's, making sure I know where the dirt meets the pavement, and the track condition (rocks, water). I don't have tire warmers, but even on my warm up laps I am working on my RP's. On a new track without anything standardized to begin with, I'm assuming I'd work on my brake points first, entry points, apex's, and progress from there. I constantly work on my RP's, and if it doesn't work after a few sessions, it's time to change it up. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Derek Sauder Posted January 9, 2009 Report Share Posted January 9, 2009 Hub, So is it on your first lap that you kind of start working on you brake points, turn in points? If so, do you take a mental note of where that took place so you can try to get to that point the next time? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
hubbard_28 Posted January 10, 2009 Report Share Posted January 10, 2009 Hub, So is it on your first lap that you kind of start working on you brake points, turn in points? If so, do you take a mental note of where that took place so you can try to get to that point the next time? I haven't done a new track in some time, but might be able to in February/March. On East I take it real easy on my first 3 laps, and make sure I have my RP's down, then I spend the rest of the day making small tweaks to some corners I don't have down. I'm really bad in the carousel on East, and am constantly working on it and changing my RP's. I need to add one going in because after I hit my entry point, I spend a small bit of time searching for my next RP, and newest one that seems to work. But I'm blind for a while. I don't feel comfortable during that short time and want to improve, but with as many times as I did that track last year, I am going to try to get on some other ones. Firebird has 3 tracks right next to each other. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
steph1000 Posted January 11, 2009 Report Share Posted January 11, 2009 Derek, I'll try to come up/find a definition that we can agree upon, and we can change it as necessary. I do siting laps in the morning, but am checking overrun area's, making sure I know where the dirt meets the pavement, and the track condition (rocks, water). I don't have tire warmers, but even on my warm up laps I am working on my RP's. On a new track without anything standardized to begin with, I'm assuming I'd work on my brake points first, entry points, apex's, and progress from there. I constantly work on my RP's, and if it doesn't work after a few sessions, it's time to change it up. ...here it is i think...an RP is what ever makes you make that decision of braking,turning ect....could be as simple as a 100 feet of discolored pavement or something like gearing revs and all that...doesnt mean that it is actually a good thing since its so vague...i understand what Hub means by RP'S , if you want to get around a race track faster or if you want to get closer to race pace you need solid and specific RP'S ..if that makes any sense.. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
hubbard_28 Posted January 12, 2009 Report Share Posted January 12, 2009 Derek, I'll try to come up/find a definition that we can agree upon, and we can change it as necessary. I do siting laps in the morning, but am checking overrun area's, making sure I know where the dirt meets the pavement, and the track condition (rocks, water). I don't have tire warmers, but even on my warm up laps I am working on my RP's. On a new track without anything standardized to begin with, I'm assuming I'd work on my brake points first, entry points, apex's, and progress from there. I constantly work on my RP's, and if it doesn't work after a few sessions, it's time to change it up. ...here it is i think...an RP is what ever makes you make that decision of braking,turning ect....could be as simple as a 100 feet of discolored pavement or something like gearing revs and all that...doesnt mean that it is actually a good thing since its so vague...i understand what Hub means by RP'S , if you want to get around a race track faster or if you want to get closer to race pace you need solid and specific RP'S ..if that makes any sense.. I thought about it and ran it through a few times, but this is a rough draft. I'm not the most literate person, but here goes. Feel free to add changes or alter it as you guys think is best. Reference Point (RP)- An RP is a point on a road or track, fixed or placed, that can be used as a reference by a motorcycle rider for various purposes. These points are used for, but not limited to: braking, turning, apexing, accelerating, and maneuvering a motorcycle. RP's are used to maximize a riders speed, consistency, safety, and confidence while riding, and allow familiarity with location and use of a "line." Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Derek Sauder Posted January 12, 2009 Report Share Posted January 12, 2009 How about something a bit more simple? My def.; Something out there, as close to the track as possible, if not on the track, that doesn't move and tells me where I am or what I should be doing. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
fire337 Posted January 12, 2009 Report Share Posted January 12, 2009 Don't forget yourself. Where your location on the track is also a reference point. You use it along with the other reference points you guys are describing to make the line through the corner. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Derek Sauder Posted January 12, 2009 Report Share Posted January 12, 2009 Don't forget yourself. Where your location on the track is also a reference point. You use it along with the other reference points you guys are describing to make the line through the corner. So, are you saying that a RP is something that can be moving? Because as a rider, you are moving. What is your def. of a RP? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
fire337 Posted January 13, 2009 Report Share Posted January 13, 2009 Don't forget yourself. Where your location on the track is also a reference point. You use it along with the other reference points you guys are describing to make the line through the corner. So, are you saying that a RP is something that can be moving? Because as a rider, you are moving. What is your def. of a RP? My definition of a RP is a location or object on or near the track you can use to tell you where you are. You don't want to use moving RP's that creates more of a survival reaction such as following someone else around the track and focusing on them instead of your own reference points. That can lead to a crash real quick. By using your reference points and refering to where you currently are you can put together your line for that corner. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Derek Sauder Posted January 13, 2009 Report Share Posted January 13, 2009 Don't forget yourself. Where your location on the track is also a reference point. You use it along with the other reference points you guys are describing to make the line through the corner. So, are you saying that a RP is something that can be moving? Because as a rider, you are moving. What is your def. of a RP? My definition of a RP is a location or object on or near the track you can use to tell you where you are. You don't want to use moving RP's that creates more of a survival reaction such as following someone else around the track and focusing on them instead of your own reference points. That can lead to a crash real quick. By using your reference points and refering to where you currently are you can put together your line for that corner. So, since you would be moving, would you be a RP? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
fire337 Posted January 13, 2009 Report Share Posted January 13, 2009 Don't forget yourself. Where your location on the track is also a reference point. You use it along with the other reference points you guys are describing to make the line through the corner. So, are you saying that a RP is something that can be moving? Because as a rider, you are moving. What is your def. of a RP? My definition of a RP is a location or object on or near the track you can use to tell you where you are. You don't want to use moving RP's that creates more of a survival reaction such as following someone else around the track and focusing on them instead of your own reference points. That can lead to a crash real quick. By using your reference points and refering to where you currently are you can put together your line for that corner. So, since you would be moving, would you be a RP? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jaybird180 Posted January 13, 2009 Report Share Posted January 13, 2009 Don't forget yourself. Where your location on the track is also a reference point. You use it along with the other reference points you guys are describing to make the line through the corner. So, are you saying that a RP is something that can be moving? Because as a rider, you are moving. What is your def. of a RP? My definition of a RP is a location or object on or near the track you can use to tell you where you are. You don't want to use moving RP's that creates more of a survival reaction such as following someone else around the track and focusing on them instead of your own reference points. That can lead to a crash real quick. By using your reference points and refering to where you currently are you can put together your line for that corner. So, since you would be moving, would you be a RP? A RP is simply a point of timing. A location that tells you it's time to do something (or nothing). Although we can think in terms of the world moving around us, using yourself as a RP in this case would be pointless. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Cobie Fair Posted January 15, 2009 Report Share Posted January 15, 2009 Been out, but at the office and got Twist 1 out. Lots of good info, I'm not going to put it all here, but on pg 24: "You use reference points to find out where you are on the track." On page 25, a comment by Eddie Lawson: "Reference Points--yeah, you might not think about them, but you've got to use them. Just little things on the track I remember--it helps to put it all together. I hadn't reviewed that chapter for a while, lots of good data in there. Hub, think you'd like it, see if you can get a hold of one, check out that chapter. Too much to list out. I'll toss in one thing: an RP is something that the rider has to place some value on, it means something to him. Like, "turn here, stop here, OK to be pinned here, be 4 feet to the left of that crack and I'm on line" or "keep it on the asphalt" which are for me, the 2 most basic reference points, the edge of the track or rode. It's interesting to talk to riders or drivers about this. For example, for some people the yellow line on the road is a wall, DO NOT CROSS FOR ANY REASON, that's what it means to them. Well, what if a car is in your lane, and you need to cross over? I had an honest person tell me they would not have crossed the yellow line, for any reason, the yellow line wasa like a wall to them. Truthfully, if there is asphalt, it should be open to be used in an emergency. I've had another rider go across the yellow and across the white line on the far side of the road (a turnout) to miss a car in his lane. He for sure had a different idea of what the road was, anything with asphalt! C Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Cobie Fair Posted January 15, 2009 Report Share Posted January 15, 2009 Been out, but at the office and got Twist 1 out. Lots of good info, I'm not going to put it all here, but on pg 24: "You use reference points to find out where you are on the track." On page 25, a comment by Eddie Lawson: "Reference Points--yeah, you might not think about them, but you've got to use them. Just little things on the track I remember--it helps to put it all together. I hadn't reviewed that chapter for a while, lots of good data in there. Hub, think you'd like it, see if you can get a hold of one, check out that chapter. Too much to list out. I'll toss in one thing: an RP is something that the rider has to place some value on, it means something to him. Like, "turn here, stop here, OK to be pinned here, be 4 feet to the left of that crack and I'm on line" or "keep it on the asphalt" which are for me, the 2 most basic reference points, the edge of the track or rode. It's interesting to talk to riders or drivers about this. For example, for some people the yellow line on the road is a wall, DO NOT CROSS FOR ANY REASON, that's what it means to them. Well, what if a car is in your lane, and you need to cross over? I had an honest person tell me they would not have crossed the yellow line, for any reason, the yellow line wasa like a wall to them. Truthfully, if there is asphalt, it should be open to be used in an emergency. I've had another rider go across the yellow and across the white line on the far side of the road (a turnout) to miss a car in his lane. He for sure had a different idea of what the road was, anything with asphalt! C Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
hubbard_28 Posted January 16, 2009 Report Share Posted January 16, 2009 Been out, but at the office and got Twist 1 out. Lots of good info, I'm not going to put it all here, but on pg 24: "You use reference points to find out where you are on the track." On page 25, a comment by Eddie Lawson: "Reference Points--yeah, you might not think about them, but you've got to use them. Just little things on the track I remember--it helps to put it all together. I hadn't reviewed that chapter for a while, lots of good data in there. Hub, think you'd like it, see if you can get a hold of one, check out that chapter. Too much to list out. I'll toss in one thing: an RP is something that the rider has to place some value on, it means something to him. Like, "turn here, stop here, OK to be pinned here, be 4 feet to the left of that crack and I'm on line" or "keep it on the asphalt" which are for me, the 2 most basic reference points, the edge of the track or rode. It's interesting to talk to riders or drivers about this. For example, for some people the yellow line on the road is a wall, DO NOT CROSS FOR ANY REASON, that's what it means to them. Well, what if a car is in your lane, and you need to cross over? I had an honest person tell me they would not have crossed the yellow line, for any reason, the yellow line wasa like a wall to them. Truthfully, if there is asphalt, it should be open to be used in an emergency. I've had another rider go across the yellow and across the white line on the far side of the road (a turnout) to miss a car in his lane. He for sure had a different idea of what the road was, anything with asphalt! C Good to have you back, Cobie. I'm going to pick TOTW up before I go to Vegas Sunday. I sit in the tub and can read for hours, but don't have a tub in my loft. Not very motivated to read when I'm not in the tub unless I'm studying on the computer. For the longest time I thought TOTW 2 was just an update to TOTW. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
acebobby Posted January 16, 2009 Author Report Share Posted January 16, 2009 Hay hub it seems there are alot of people that think that twist 2 is an update to twist 1 and it could not be further from the truth. definitely worth reading, especially since you are spending the money on going to the school! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jaybird180 Posted January 16, 2009 Report Share Posted January 16, 2009 Been out, but at the office and got Twist 1 out. Lots of good info, I'm not going to put it all here, but on pg 24: "You use reference points to find out where you are on the track." On page 25, a comment by Eddie Lawson: "Reference Points--yeah, you might not think about them, but you've got to use them. Just little things on the track I remember--it helps to put it all together. I hadn't reviewed that chapter for a while, lots of good data in there. Hub, think you'd like it, see if you can get a hold of one, check out that chapter. Too much to list out. I'll toss in one thing: an RP is something that the rider has to place some value on, it means something to him. Like, "turn here, stop here, OK to be pinned here, be 4 feet to the left of that crack and I'm on line" or "keep it on the asphalt" which are for me, the 2 most basic reference points, the edge of the track or rode. It's interesting to talk to riders or drivers about this. For example, for some people the yellow line on the road is a wall, DO NOT CROSS FOR ANY REASON, that's what it means to them. Well, what if a car is in your lane, and you need to cross over? I had an honest person tell me they would not have crossed the yellow line, for any reason, the yellow line wasa like a wall to them. Truthfully, if there is asphalt, it should be open to be used in an emergency. I've had another rider go across the yellow and across the white line on the far side of the road (a turnout) to miss a car in his lane. He for sure had a different idea of what the road was, anything with asphalt! C Is it possible to have a RP and not be conscious of it? I have a turn near home that I end up in the same place nearly every time. I'm obviously using RPs but not conscious of them. Does Rossi think to himself, "entry, apex, exit" or it is on a subconscious level? Is learning to corner using RPs akin to learning to dance by counting steps? (1-2-3-4, 1-2-3-4 don't step on the girl's feet 1-2-3-4) At what point do we do James Brown? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Cobie Fair Posted January 16, 2009 Report Share Posted January 16, 2009 Finding reference points is fairly natural. Walk into the room, one sees with out having to think much about it (even if never been in the room), see the couch and chairs and walk over there and sit down. People see our trucks at the track and drive over, no one has to tell them. But adding speed, and precision to the mix, then it makes it more interesting. Let's say one was running down the hallway in a house, full speed, and had to turn into a room. One would have to have the RP's pretty well sorted out or get a face full of wall or doorjamb. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
hubbard_28 Posted January 17, 2009 Report Share Posted January 17, 2009 Did you make the turn while paying attention to RP's, Jaybird? I would think that you would be able to pick up on them quickly whether consciously used or not. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
fire337 Posted January 17, 2009 Report Share Posted January 17, 2009 Let's say one was running down the hallway in a house, full speed, and had to turn into a room. One would have to have the RP's pretty well sorted out or get a face full of wall or doorjamb. Now that would be a hellava learning experience. lol Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jaybird180 Posted January 17, 2009 Report Share Posted January 17, 2009 Did you make the turn while paying attention to RP's, Jaybird? I would think that you would be able to pick up on them quickly whether consciously used or not. Not conscious of using them. But I do know where I want to be to set up for the 90deg right. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bones Posted January 17, 2009 Report Share Posted January 17, 2009 Did you make the turn while paying attention to RP's, Jaybird? I would think that you would be able to pick up on them quickly whether consciously used or not. Not conscious of using them. But I do know where I want to be to set up for the 90deg right. To be conscious (aware) of the RPs, gives you control, thus you can change it if you want or need to. I find that by being aware of my RPs gives me more attention. I don't have that 'hunting' 'searching' feeling. Or waiting for the Survival Reactions (SR) to kick in. Typically when the SRs kick in, you'll over/under react (turn in too early, break too hard, not turn as hard, not get on the gas as hard etc....), or not perform consistently. Cheers Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
acebobby Posted January 18, 2009 Author Report Share Posted January 18, 2009 I consciously use RPs while riding on the road, for every turn I pick a turn in point as late as possible, I consciously do this even on roads I have never riden before! On the road it is easy to find RPs, there is always something to look at from roadkill to fence posts, I go with the theory that any RP is better than no RP. The reason I pick my turn point as late as possible is because of something I learned from Andy Ibbot, I dont know the correct statistics but the most motorcycle accidents not involving another vehicle are due to the rider running wide on the exit! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jaybird180 Posted January 18, 2009 Report Share Posted January 18, 2009 I consciously use RPs while riding on the road, for every turn I pick a turn in point as late as possible, I consciously do this even on roads I have never riden before! On the road it is easy to find RPs, there is always something to look at from roadkill to fence posts, I go with the theory that any RP is better than no RP. The reason I pick my turn point as late as possible is because of something I learned from Andy Ibbot, I dont know the correct statistics but the most motorcycle accidents not involving another vehicle are due to the rider running wide on the exit! Does this promote poor vision skills? IOW, if you're constantly looking at the road surface to find a reference point, you're not looking up and ahead. And who changed my forum (LOL) Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
acebobby Posted January 18, 2009 Author Report Share Posted January 18, 2009 I consciously use RPs while riding on the road, for every turn I pick a turn in point as late as possible, I consciously do this even on roads I have never riden before! On the road it is easy to find RPs, there is always something to look at from roadkill to fence posts, I go with the theory that any RP is better than no RP. The reason I pick my turn point as late as possible is because of something I learned from Andy Ibbot, I dont know the correct statistics but the most motorcycle accidents not involving another vehicle are due to the rider running wide on the exit! Does this promote poor vision skills? IOW, if you're constantly looking at the road surface to find a reference point, you're not looking up and ahead. And who changed my forum (LOL) I feel that it actually helps with working on my visual skills, I am always looking up and ahead, where I want to go! all RPs and turn points are selected early, and I dont stare at them but leave some attention on them in my peripheral vision! (see page 98 of TOTW2 the two step) this drill at my level 1 absolutely amazed me and gave me so much more space on the track and the road. On the road as opposed to the track there tends to be bigger more obvious RPs to choose from, telegraph poles, fence posts, etc if you look you will find loads, you dont have to examine the road surface for cracks or skid marks like on the track, also the reduced speed makes it good for working your visual skills! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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