2012 Moto Gp Changes.

[Jasonzilla]

Big news in the world of motorcycle racing.

 

http://www.motogp.com/en/news/2009/FIM+ann...for+2012+MotoGP

[Jasonzilla]

Maybe to get other brands interested?

[jodypresti]

I hope this improves the competitive balance for the independent teams with cost issues. Can't come soon enough.

[Cobie Fair]

Maybe to get other brands interested?

 

I would think to make it viable for others to be able to supply bikes, and competively so.

 

CF

[dbtriple]

Maybe to get other brands interested?

 

I would think to make it viable for others to be able to supply bikes, and competively so.

 

CF

Here's some food for thought......

 

You know what Jeremy Burgess said about all this? That it isn't going to return to the old back end sliding around type of thing that we had before.....because traction control would have led to this high corner speed path with either 1000cc or 800cc. The fast 4 are still going to be that much faster than all the rest.

And I also wonder what happened to the original reason for the switch, which was that the tyres couldn't cope with 340kmh plus speeds with any degree of safety, a la Shinya Nakano's rear delaminating at high speed. Given that the 800s have started nudging 340 on occasion, what will these latter day 1000s start to top out at?

Dorna are idiots, they've given us a couple of forgettable seasons of processions, and now have changed just about the only thing that will have no effect on competition. They should have got rid of traction control, given them as much fuel as they liked and put a restrictor plate on all air intakes for the class and then you would have seen some competition like the old days.

So there's my two bob again.

 

db

[khp]

Maybe to get other brands interested?

I would think to make it viable for others to be able to supply bikes, and competively so.

 

I'm only guessing here, but my take is that they thought that having a 600cc (Moto2) and an 800cc class (MotoGP) was too close for comfort - just how much difference in laptimes etc would there be between the top Moto2 riders and the top MotoGP riders, with just 200cc of extra displacement?

 

So in order to be able to market the two classes as being really different, they had to move them further apart - and hence the 1000cc displacement.

 

Slight topic deviation:

Since they have replaced the 250GP class (250cc 2-strokes) with Moto2 (600cc 4-strokes), a natural progression would be to replace the 125GP class with something like a 400cc 4-stroke class as well. If they did, it could result in a new wave of 400cc sportsbikes and THAT would be really interesting IMHO.

[Cobie Fair]

400's would be interesting, maybe singles...love to see some bikes that the smaller riders could get on. Never been very popular here in the US, but it would be great to have something fun smaller/shorter riders could use. For a number of the ones I have talked with, getting their feet on the ground, and the overall weight of the bike has been an issue that has kept them off of the more serious sportbikes.

 

CF

[khp]

400's would be interesting, maybe singles...love to see some bikes that the smaller riders could get on.

Not just singles - the Big Four has made a bunch of 400cc 4-cylinder bikes originally destined for the internal Japanese market, but for tax reasons (bikes and cars are taxed up to 180% at registration) Denmark has received quite a few of these such as CBR400, VFR400, RVF400, GSX-R400, and ZX-R400'es.

 

A friend of mine has a CBR400RR and loves every bit of it, since she's around 162-165cm (5'4"-5'5" for the metrically challenged).

Biggest problem is the coming shortage of maintenance parts and tires (try getting hold of a decent 150/60 rear).

[Jasonzilla]

I always thought the 125's to be a great entry level for the GP riders. Get them used to the basics, and the competition of the MotoGP circuit. And I'm not all familiar with the bore depth. It's been capped at 81 mm. For the mechanically inclined, what is that going to affect?

[khp]

I always thought the 125's to be a great entry level for the GP riders. Get them used to the basics, and the competition of the MotoGP circuit. And I'm not all familiar with the bore depth. It's been capped at 81 mm. For the mechanically inclined, what is that going to affect?

Short version: maximum rpm and thus power. I was going to say torque as well, but realized that they have pneumatic values now (which allows them to optimize the lift profile for all rpms independently).

 

Longer version: With 1000cc & 4 cylinders, the max bore of 81mm will effectively limit the minimum stroke length to 48.5mm. The piston has to travel 2 x the stroke for every revolution, and the average speed of the piston affects the wear and heat of the piston. So in order to keep the wear and heat to a reasonable level, they have to keep the rpms down, or come up with ways of reducing the wear and heat.

 

As an example take a 600cc sportsbike with a stroke of 42.5mm (such as the YZF-R6 and CBR600RR), which has a max rpm of 15.500rpm. Here the max average piston speed is 15500/60*2*42.5mm = 22m/sec, which is close the what has been considered "the limit" for production bikes for some time.

 

For MotoGP race bikes, they can surely bend the limits quite a bit.

[spthomas]

Here the max average piston speed is 15500/60*2*42.5mm = 22m/sec, which is close the what has been considered "the limit" for production bikes for some time.

Electric bikes don't have this limit of course... it will be interesting to see how they progress over the next few years. Any wagers on when MotoGP will have a "e" class!?

[Fajita Dave]

I think I'd like to see the 125cc class replaced with 250cc four strokes. Kawasaki already has one and from what I've seen they can get around 50hp out of it. Once you get a factory team on that engine that has much better materials available they can probably boost that to 60 or 70hp. It would be a blast riding such a light motorcycle around.

 

Khb you seem to understand the math and physics involved to know the limits of these engines so I hate to disagree with you but I think they can get a lot more then 15,500rpm out of even a 1000cc engine. If F1 teams can get 18,000rpm out of a 2.4 liter, eight cylinder engine with reliable performance then the MotoGP teams shouldn't have a problem getting that out of 1 liter, four cylinder engines.

 

I am curious to see what switching back to 1000cc bikes will do for the racing. World Superbike on their 1000cc bikes had much closer and more exciting racing then MotoGP did last year.

[dbtriple]

I think I'd like to see the 125cc class replaced with 250cc four strokes. Kawasaki already has one and from what I've seen they can get around 50hp out of it. Once you get a factory team on that engine that has much better materials available they can probably boost that to 60 or 70hp. It would be a blast riding such a light motorcycle around.

 

Khb you seem to understand the math and physics involved to know the limits of these engines so I hate to disagree with you but I think they can get a lot more then 15,500rpm out of even a 1000cc engine. If F1 teams can get 18,000rpm out of a 2.4 liter, eight cylinder engine with reliable performance then the MotoGP teams shouldn't have a problem getting that out of 1 liter, four cylinder engines.

 

I am curious to see what switching back to 1000cc bikes will do for the racing. World Superbike on their 1000cc bikes had much closer and more exciting racing then MotoGP did last year.

Dave,

 

I think it gets down to peak piston speed. Eight cylinders with a relatively short stroke and wide cylinder diameter has less distance to travel to make a revolution, hence can do it at less speed. Whilst engine dimensions are important in formula one they have more flexibility in this area than motogp.

 

A 4 cylinder motogp bike has to have a relatively long stroke in comparison to its bore, as part of the packaging of the engine, and this is what eventually will limit the rpm, when combined with the new engine replacement limit of 5 per season. Formula 1 has these constraints also, but with the abovementioned limitations. If motogp had 8 cylinders then it could too, but the rules say 4. Take for example the v8 250cc honda gp bikes of yesteryear - if you throw enough cylinders at it the piston speeds can be kept under control, using less mass in the pistons reduces the g forces, and mad rpms were available even then. But today, even with much better metallurgy and design, there are still limits, at least currently, when you consider the rules.

 

There is a whole world of mad engineering in this, but suffice it to say that at 18000rpm a formula one motor piston, at the end of its stroke undergoes 17000g deceleration. So it is all pretty damaging to conrods to say the least.

 

Being unaware of the stroke and bore of the engines concerned it is difficult to speculate on what the precise motogp peak velocities would be, but someone, somewhere, probably in Japan or Italy, knows what the story is.

 

db

[Jasonzilla]

From what I've read, and this was a long time ago, is that FIM is one day looking into merging the two, or making the bikes much more similar. MotoGP is too expensive, and they lose lots of potential sponsors because of the price.

[RocketPunch]

MCN conformed they will be running a split grid of 1000 and 800. 1000's performance will be capped to the level of the 800's.

[Cobie Fair]

MCN conformed they will be running a split grid of 1000 and 800. 1000's performance will be capped to the level of the 800's.

 

Any specifics on how that is going to be capped? Maybe I better get up on MCN, see what's up.