tmckeen Posted March 7, 2013 Report Share Posted March 7, 2013 On my street bike you cannot clutch-less up-shift from 2nd to 5th with a single roll off, but the on off shift on off shift works fine and can be done very quickly. I don't wanna confuse anyone, but you can also clutch-less down shift with the same roll off you up shift with, its just a matter of unloading the gearbox to allow the dogs to shift into the next gear Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Stroker Posted March 7, 2013 Report Share Posted March 7, 2013 HF, short shift ( to me ) means skipping gears through the box, ie instead of 1,2,3 going 1,3 and not running second at all.But shifting early can also be considered " short " in some circles.Won't rapidly rolling on and off when going three gears up cause the bike to be unsettled? The roll off's can be progressively smaller i suspect? As at say 7k rpm in second, you roll off say 15%, grab third, roll off 10%, grab fourth, roll of 5-8%, grab fifth, all in the space of 2-3 seconds. Can some one try this and let us know if i am correct? ( Don't have a bike ) Also if Alfred's single roll of theory works as well? McKeen, rolling off when downshifting is contrary to all i have done in my life.How is it that you say you can roll off for downshifts when nearly everyone blips? . Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Hotfoot Posted March 7, 2013 Report Share Posted March 7, 2013 HF, short shift ( to me ) means skipping gears through the box, ie instead of 1,2,3 going 1,3 and not running second at all.But shifting early can also be considered " short " in some circles.Won't rapidly rolling on and off when going three gears up cause the bike to be unsettled? The roll off's can be progressively smaller i suspect? As at say 7k rpm in second, you roll off say 15%, grab third, roll off 10%, grab fourth, roll of 5-8%, grab fifth, all in the space of 2-3 seconds. Can some one try this and let us know if i am correct? ( Don't have a bike ) Also if Alfred's single roll of theory works as well? McKeen, rolling off when downshifting is contrary to all i have done in my life.How is it that you say you can roll off for downshifts when nearly everyone blips? . As far as I know all bikes have sequential shift and here is no way to skip gears. It would not require much roll-on, roll-off between gears, the pressure is put on the gears by strong acceleration or deceleration. You just have to create a moment where the pressure is off the gears to get the shift - or else pull in the clutch to unload the transmission - and it only takes a small throttle on-off action to do that. And yes it would be less for each shift as the RPM will keep dropping as you get to higher gears. I think T-McKeen was referring to downshifting at the moment of roll-off. If you are ON the gas, then let OFF the gas, right at the moment of that roll off you can downshift very easily. However, usually when you are downshifting you are slowing down (preparing for a turn or to stop) and thus are already OFF the gas, in which case a throttle blip is usually needed to match RPMs to get the downshift without the clutch. (At very low RPMs there is so little load on the transmission it may downshift with no blip. ) The goal is to use the throttle to unload the transmission (which is what the clutch does) and if you are ON the gas to begin within and let off, it is unloaded enough to shift, you just have to do it before the RPMs fall off much. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Stroker Posted March 8, 2013 Report Share Posted March 8, 2013 So you say downshift in the moment you roll off before you blip? (You roll off a bit before you blip right?) In that small an interval or the same interval as an upshift roll off? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Alfred.Rodriguez Posted March 8, 2013 Report Share Posted March 8, 2013 Heree in Tokyo, I take the subway to work. Tomorrow, about 12-hrs, from now, Ill get the chance to take my bike out... Ill see if I can break down the steps. The technique is quite over in a split moment, so, quite difficult to put it into words. Ill let my right hand and left foot feel it out... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Cobie Fair Posted March 8, 2013 Report Share Posted March 8, 2013 On a clutchless downshift, one would be normally starting off either off throttle or off throttle and braking too. To begin the down shift, a small blip (on/off) is done, and just after the throttle is put on, the transmission is unwieghted, and the bike will shift down. If the timing is off, the bike won't shift. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
tmckeen Posted March 9, 2013 Report Share Posted March 9, 2013 So you say downshift in the moment you roll off before you blip? (You roll off a bit before you blip right?) In that small an interval or the same interval as an upshift roll off? I think you're confused about what I'm talking about in relation to what 98% of this thread has been about, Like Cobie said, "MOST" of the time time when your going to down shift you are either off the throttle, or off the throttle and on the brakes, so to unload the transmission you have to blip the throttle, which allows the gearbox to shift. This is what virtually every post in this thread has been referring too. However, in some street riding applications you may need to downshift while ON the throttle, for example, have you ever, while driving a manual shift vehicle, applied the gas and found the engine response not to your liking and decided to grab a quick downshift ??? In this example you are starting out On the throttle and the transmission is engaged, you cannot Blip the throttle if your already on the gas, so rather then rolling off the throttle, giving it a small blip, shifting, and then rolling back on the throttle, you can simply use the same slight roll off from the up-shifting technique to unload the transmission and allow you to downshift and reapply the throttle. A little practice and its very smooth and quick. You can also technically up-shift while off the throttle with a blip, but I honestly can't think of a reason you would need to up-shift while off throttle. It all comes down too unloading the transmission which allows the gears to change, you can shift in either direction once you have done so, and how you achieve the unloading of your transmission depends on which state you are in before you shift, If your ON the Gas, a slight roll off, if your OFF the gas a small blip Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Stroker Posted March 9, 2013 Report Share Posted March 9, 2013 If your ON the Gas, a slight roll off, if your OFF the gas a small blip Which is what i was asking.Thank you all. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
YellowDuck Posted March 15, 2013 Report Share Posted March 15, 2013 I upshift clutchless pretty much exclusively, but have *never* managed what I would consider an acceptable clutchless downshift. Either the bike lurches forward on the blip without shifting, or else it shifts but doesn't engage smoothly and lurches in the lower gear. I tried to learn it for a while when I was a street rider but eventually gave up for fear of grenading the gearbox. This thread has given me the motivation to try to learn it again this coming track season. I never realized it was easier in the higher gears, but I can see how that makes sense. It doesn't seem like a terribly important skill though (compared to clutchless upshifting). Especially with a slipper clutch that lets you downshift pretty much whenever it is convenient without fear of skidding the rear, I don't feel like I am losing a lot of time using the clutch on downshifts. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mcouper Posted March 17, 2013 Report Share Posted March 17, 2013 I'm reasonably sure I don't blip, but have managed to learn how to RPM-match on my bike as I release the clutch. Is 'blipping' something that's taught in the level 1 sessions, or something that we should already have learned coming in? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
tmckeen Posted March 18, 2013 Report Share Posted March 18, 2013 Clutch-less shifting is not part of the set curriculum in any of levels 1 through 3, I do believe if you ask your coach specifically about it they can give you some coaching on the technique but it is not part of the normal Class and Drills Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Cobie Fair Posted March 18, 2013 Report Share Posted March 18, 2013 Just ask about the shifting, we address it individually. CF Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Stroker Posted March 20, 2013 Report Share Posted March 20, 2013 Do you offer lessons via skype? lol Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Cobie Fair Posted March 21, 2013 Report Share Posted March 21, 2013 That's best to do hands on... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Stroker Posted March 21, 2013 Report Share Posted March 21, 2013 No how about this? People ask you a question, on video so you can see what is going on.And you can post a reply here, or you can make a little video your self in reply. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Alfred.Rodriguez Posted March 27, 2013 Report Share Posted March 27, 2013 HF, short shift ( to me ) means skipping gears through the box, ie instead of 1,2,3 going 1,3 and not running second at all.But shifting early can also be considered " short " in some circles.Won't rapidly rolling on and off when going three gears up cause the bike to be unsettled? The roll off's can be progressively smaller i suspect? As at say 7k rpm in second, you roll off say 15%, grab third, roll off 10%, grab fourth, roll of 5-8%, grab fifth, all in the space of 2-3 seconds. Can some one try this and let us know if i am correct? ( Don't have a bike ) Also if Alfred's single roll of theory works as well? McKeen, rolling off when downshifting is contrary to all i have done in my life.How is it that you say you can roll off for downshifts when nearly everyone blips? . Hi guys! Sorry for the long hiatus - was busy with work the previous weeks. I did get to (again) try clutchless up-short-shifting; just to make sure I wasnt in my pajamas when I made that previous post... And YES - it is indeed possible. I went 1st to 5th on my 2011 Ninja 1000. Albeit, I have to start off with high revs at first because there wouldnt be any RPMs left by the time I get to the higher gears. All done with a single roll off, a long one at that... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Alfred.Rodriguez Posted March 27, 2013 Report Share Posted March 27, 2013 I'm reasonably sure I don't blip, but have managed to learn how to RPM-match on my bike as I release the clutch. Is 'blipping' something that's taught in the level 1 sessions, or something that we should already have learned coming in? It is not part of L1 and L2 (as those are just the levels Ive taken)... Though a short discourse on it is found at the TOTW2 DVD... Pretty much - rev matching with the clutch is not recommended. If you have to do it, do it in the lower range, ie., maybe not more than 2,000. However, in race/track sessions, it is a valuable tool to have in your cabinet of tricks. Say, you are coming in to a corner in high-revs, and you made a wrong shift (your blip was either too strong or too weak, etc.), learning to modulate through the clutch (sometimes open/closing a few mms around the "meet poinyt") is your only recourse to avoid a mishap. Could anyone else chime in on this? On the other hand, knowing how to do brake/blip/shift is nice when you come into the lessons/Levels. There are corners that, when allowed by your coaches to go "full brakes and full gears," FUN to take in... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ScrmnDuc Posted March 28, 2013 Report Share Posted March 28, 2013 I upshift clutchless pretty much exclusively, but have *never* managed what I would consider an acceptable clutchless downshift. Either the bike lurches forward on the blip without shifting, or else it shifts but doesn't engage smoothly and lurches in the lower gear. I tried to learn it for a while when I was a street rider but eventually gave up for fear of grenading the gearbox. This thread has given me the motivation to try to learn it again this coming track season. I never realized it was easier in the higher gears, but I can see how that makes sense. It doesn't seem like a terribly important skill though (compared to clutchless upshifting). Especially with a slipper clutch that lets you downshift pretty much whenever it is convenient without fear of skidding the rear, I don't feel like I am losing a lot of time using the clutch on downshifts. It can be done on the SC's but it is a task that has to be worked on. I have found that it is easier to do at higher RPM's 4K+. Even better at 6K+. Be very careful in the lower gears though. What gearing are you using atm? When it works right it is a beautiful Duc, When done wrong it is an ugly Duc Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ScrmnDuc Posted March 28, 2013 Report Share Posted March 28, 2013 @ Alfred. having to play with the clutch while in a turn would use almost if not all of you $10.00 of concentration. From the scenario you mentioned you have just blown the turn. It would be better to regroup and try not to do that again. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Alfred.Rodriguez Posted March 28, 2013 Report Share Posted March 28, 2013 @ Alfred. having to play with the clutch while in a turn would use almost if not all of you $10.00 of concentration. From the scenario you mentioned you have just blown the turn. It would be better to regroup and try not to do that again. Not necessarily! When you start out, it will indeed cost you $10.00 of your credit! However, with practice, and indeed in the world of racing (and real life applications, as well) – maybe it will just cost the rider a few cents (also highlighted in the TOTW1 DVD). As per regrouping for the turn – could be, it makes sense when you are just tracking. But in a race, does blowing a corner really make sense? Or in the twisties?Just because your Wide View is so good that you may NOT require hard braking (just before the ABS kicks in), does it mean that I don't need to practice it to the point of making it cheap for me? If you risk a rear tire slip, wouldn't it be good to have this technique in your bag of tricks make sense? Note: I actually had an experience when cornering in the twisties that I down shifted too much, and on a SANDY patch. Instead of risking a tire slip/skid and/or lowslide - I just modulated the clutch to compensate... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
YellowDuck Posted March 28, 2013 Report Share Posted March 28, 2013 What gearing are you using atm? 14/41. That gets a fat old guy with a poor tuck just to the rev limiter in sixth at the end of the back straight at Mosport.... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ScrmnDuc Posted March 29, 2013 Report Share Posted March 29, 2013 you got me by a tooth. 14/40 for me. At least you can tuck on yours. I'm just a sail going down the track on mine. I'm not even sure there is a track near the house where I would even use 6th. Most times I can clutch-less downshift without incident. While braking normally all it takes is just a slight blip. 3rd to 2nd can be entertaining when done wrong though. @ Alfred I think we may going off topic with the clutch in the turns. Maybe a new thread? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Alfred.Rodriguez Posted March 29, 2013 Report Share Posted March 29, 2013 you got me by a tooth. 14/40 for me. At least you can tuck on yours. I'm just a sail going down the track on mine. I'm not even sure there is a track near the house where I would even use 6th. Most times I can clutch-less downshift without incident. While braking normally all it takes is just a slight blip. 3rd to 2nd can be entertaining when done wrong though. @ Alfred I think we may going off topic with the clutch in the turns. Maybe a new thread? Yeah - let us setup one... Would be a informative discourse... Update: Created a new thread: http://forums.superbikeschool.com/index.php?showtopic=3759 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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