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Jasonzilla

Quick Turn In Totw 2.

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Jasonzilla    0

Page 69 in TOTW has a statement that says "For a given speed, the quicker you turn your bike, the less lean angle you use."

 

There is no further explanation for that statement, but what I've figured is that the more lean angle you use, the faster you can enter a turn versus someone who would use less. By my estimation, that would mean a person who uses less lean angle would have to quick turn faster to make up for the speed a person who maxes out their lean angle actually goes through the turn.

 

Am I missing something here?

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matt17    0

I think you're simply restating the benefit of quick turning differently. Essentially, there are three variables - entry speed, max lean angle and turning rate. Taking one of these as constant, we may then state the relation of the other two. For example, if maximum lean angle is constant, a quicker turning rate permits a higher entry speed. Or, as you stated, if entry speed is constant, then increasing the turning rate decreases the maximum lean necessary.

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fritzdacat    1

Page 69 in TOTW has a statement that says "For a given speed, the quicker you turn your bike, the less lean angle you use."

 

There is no further explanation for that statement, but what I've figured is that the more lean angle you use, the faster you can enter a turn versus someone who would use less. By my estimation, that would mean a person who uses less lean angle would have to quick turn faster to make up for the speed a person who maxes out their lean angle actually goes through the turn.

 

Am I missing something here?

 

Hello Jason :)

I think the term "the quicker you turn your bike" is all about lazy steering vs. quickflipping... that's my take on it. The faster you manage get to a certain lean angle the less lean angle you need going through the turn...

 

Uli

 

 

 

 

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Jasonzilla    0

Would it be more appropriate to say the faster you QT, the less time you'll be at max lean angle?

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fritzdacat    1

Would it be more appropriate to say the faster you QT, the less time you'll be at max lean angle?

 

Hmm, if max lean angle is what you're after at a given speed.... , .. it sure would be more appropriate, yes.

 

At a given speed the quicker you flip the bike the less lean angle you need going through the turn.... at least that's what it means to me as street rider

 

On a racetrack you would rather go faster at a given lean angle (or max lean angle if you will) because you didn't waste time by slow steering ...

 

....and (on both street and track) you can open the throttle earlier (!)

 

 

sure hope I'm making sense here, getting confused myself now :lol:

 

 

 

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khp    2

Here's my explanation of it: for a given speed and turning starting point, you use less road or tarmac by being quicker in turning the bike. Thus, when you turn the bike slowly you must use more lean in order to hit the same apex since you have travelled further in your original direction.

 

I hope what I wrote makes sense to you.

 

Kai

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johnnyrod    0

Jason have you done Quick Turns in Level 1? The statement is right but refers to fairly short bends, not immensly long ones. A given speed and radius will have a certain lean angle if you rode in a circle. In a short (normal) bend you don't go at a fixed radius, because there is time needed to go from straight to turned and back (adjusting lean angle down and up). The quicker you do this, the less lean angle you need at the maximum, because you're getting more effective cornering out of those portions of the turn as well as the middle bit where you're cranked over at a constant lean angle for a while. The entry and exit are working harder the faster you turn in, so the middle bit doesn't have to, so less lean angle. Hopefully I've made sense in there somewhere!

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Jasonzilla    0

Would it be more appropriate to say the faster you QT, the less time you'll be at max lean angle?

 

Hmm, if max lean angle is what you're after at a given speed.... , .. it sure would be more appropriate, yes.

 

At a given speed the quicker you flip the bike the less lean angle you need going through the turn.... at least that's what it means to me as street rider

 

On a racetrack you would rather go faster at a given lean angle (or max lean angle if you will) because you didn't waste time by slow steering ...

 

....and (on both street and track) you can open the throttle earlier (!)

 

 

sure hope I'm making sense here, getting confused myself now :lol:

 

 

 

 

Yeah. You're right, but I had just read the statement incompletely. It was at the same speed. I missed that for some reason while I was reading the book.

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Crash106    0

This quick turn thing is, IMHO, over rated. Watch a sportbike or superbike race. The fastest riders in the world, going all out on a race track, usually take a full second to go from vertical to their near-maximum lean angle for a turn. Watch and count. Then, they often dip the bike a bit more at the apex. They can turn faster if they need to (I probably couldn't), but they usually don't need to. I am not saying this is CSS doctrine. I am saying you can see this in almost every turn, in almost every race, by almost every professional rider.

 

According to Keith Code, the time it takes you to lean must be appropriate "according to the turns demands." That means "appropriate" for your speed, your line, the corner, the road and so on. You'll find this advice on p. 71 of TOTWII. You need to be able to turn the bike quickly, but you don't need to QT into every single corner. Steering Rule Number 1 (p. 64) is to "set it and forget it" or "one steering action per turn is perfect." In my opinion, you don't need to turn it faster, unless you NEED TO turn it faster. Yes, KC says, "Steer as-quickly-as-possible in every turn," but then he immediately backs off and explains that statement (p. 71).

 

There is more to a good ride than turning quickly into every corner.

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faffi    12

I agree. You cannot turn so quickly that you fail to follow the best line through the corner. I know that in an ideal world, you will use all the grip for breaking before immediately using all the grip for turning, followed by using all the grip for cornering. But since the ideal world rarely show up, you will for example see racers trail brake deep into some corners, which in itself require slower turning.

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Jasonzilla    0

This quick turn thing is, IMHO, over rated. Watch a sportbike or superbike race. The fastest riders in the world, going all out on a race track, usually take a full second to go from vertical to their near-maximum lean angle for a turn. Watch and count. Then, they often dip the bike a bit more at the apex. They can turn faster if they need to (I probably couldn't), but they usually don't need to. I am not saying this is CSS doctrine. I am saying you can see this in almost every turn, in almost every race, by almost every professional rider.

 

According to Keith Code, the time it takes you to lean must be appropriate "according to the turns demands." That means "appropriate" for your speed, your line, the corner, the road and so on. You'll find this advice on p. 71 of TOTWII. You need to be able to turn the bike quickly, but you don't need to QT into every single corner. Steering Rule Number 1 (p. 64) is to "set it and forget it" or "one steering action per turn is perfect." In my opinion, you don't need to turn it faster, unless you NEED TO turn it faster. Yes, KC says, "Steer as-quickly-as-possible in every turn," but then he immediately backs off and explains that statement (p. 71).

 

There is more to a good ride than turning quickly into every corner.

 

Like Eirik said, trail braking takes longer to get over and the pro-racers do this. If they just shot out to the normal TP, someone would come under them trail braking and stuff it under them, disallowing the person going all the way out to drop the bike in quickly. They'll take his line.

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johnnyrod    0

I would suggest that most of the time you would want to be turning as fast as possible, if you're racing, and that's what we're on about. As it's taught in TOTW/CSS however it's more about changing peoples' turn-in times from way too long into fairly snappy, and part of this is understanding how and why.

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Crash106    0

Johnny Rod, I think you have it right. From what I've seen, a lot of new riders turn way too early and way too slowly. They end up having to add lean angle on the exit (right when they are about to run out of road); or panic, stand the bike up and run off the road on the way in. Darned survival reactions! :angry:

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fritzdacat    1

This quick turn thing is, IMHO, over rated. Watch a sportbike or superbike race. The fastest riders in the world, going all out on a race track, usually take a full second to go from vertical to their near-maximum lean angle for a turn. Watch and count. Then, they often dip the bike a bit more at the apex. They can turn faster if they need to (I probably couldn't), but they usually don't need to. I am not saying this is CSS doctrine. I am saying you can see this in almost every turn, in almost every race, by almost every professional rider.

 

According to Keith Code, the time it takes you to lean must be appropriate "according to the turns demands." That means "appropriate" for your speed, your line, the corner, the road and so on. You'll find this advice on p. 71 of TOTWII. You need to be able to turn the bike quickly, but you don't need to QT into every single corner. Steering Rule Number 1 (p. 64) is to "set it and forget it" or "one steering action per turn is perfect." In my opinion, you don't need to turn it faster, unless you NEED TO turn it faster. Yes, KC says, "Steer as-quickly-as-possible in every turn," but then he immediately backs off and explains that statement (p. 71).

 

There is more to a good ride than turning quickly into every corner.

 

For me finding a turnpoint and quickflipping the bike goes hand in hand, whenever my steering gets slower I follow lines and not points any more, and following lines eventually makes me tired and less concentrated.

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ktk_ace    0

This quick turn thing is, IMHO, over rated. Watch a sportbike or superbike race. The fastest riders in the world, going all out on a race track, usually take a full second to go from vertical to their near-maximum lean angle for a turn. Watch and count. Then, they often dip the bike a bit more at the apex. They can turn faster if they need to (I probably couldn't), but they usually don't need to. I am not saying this is CSS doctrine. I am saying you can see this in almost every turn, in almost every race, by almost every professional rider.

 

According to Keith Code, the time it takes you to lean must be appropriate "according to the turns demands." That means "appropriate" for your speed, your line, the corner, the road and so on. You'll find this advice on p. 71 of TOTWII. You need to be able to turn the bike quickly, but you don't need to QT into every single corner. Steering Rule Number 1 (p. 64) is to "set it and forget it" or "one steering action per turn is perfect." In my opinion, you don't need to turn it faster, unless you NEED TO turn it faster. Yes, KC says, "Steer as-quickly-as-possible in every turn," but then he immediately backs off and explains that statement (p. 71).

 

There is more to a good ride than turning quickly into every corner.

 

 

 

 

IMHO its a tool/tech you have to sharpen to use.

 

 

And use it strategically ! theres a sweet spot for everything,ie everything on moderation

 

 

 

 

 

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Julian    0

Quick steering can sometimes be difficult to grasp. Let me see if I can explain it in the way it makes sense to me.

It's all about the RATE of steering, the time it takes you to go from upright to the required lean angle. Let's say you start your steering at point x, but it takes you a long time to get to your desired lean angle; now you have less room left in the turn, so you need to lean the bike more to make it through. On the other hand, a quick steer will straighten the turn and hence the bike will be more upright.

Not only, but it will also shorten the turn, so that you can get on the gas earlier to 1) stabilise the bike and 2) drive.

Another way to look at it, is ask yourself what will happen if you want to increase the speed through a turn, without increasing the steering rate? Let's say it takes you 1 second to go to full lean, on a line that takes you to the outside edge of the track on turn exit. Next time you increase the speed by 5mph, where will you end up? Wide of course. If you want to increase your speed through a turn but remain on an acceptable line, you must increase the rate of steering.

 

Rather than being overrated, the more you ride the more you realise just how important it is ... and why it's one of the first CSS drills.

 

Professional racers do turn quick - very quick, sometimes it's hard to tell because of the high speeds (the faster you go, the slower you steer).

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Jasonzilla    0

Quick steering can sometimes be difficult to grasp.

Rather than being overrated, the more you ride the more you realise just how important it is ... and why it's one of the first CSS drills.

 

Very true. A lot of people who argue TOTW 2 is a "basic" book mention that trail braking isn't in the book and that it's more advanced than quick turning. They don't understand how they're equally complicated to do right. Someone who's just good at quick turning (QT) can get on the gas up to 1 second sooner than a rider who doesn't QT. It's still challenging with a huge payoff when done correctly.

 

 

It's all about the RATE of steering, the time it takes you to go from upright to the required lean angle. Let's say you start your steering at point x, but it takes you a long time to get to your desired lean angle; now you have less room left in the turn, so you need to lean the bike more to make it through. On the other hand, a quick steer will straighten the turn and hence the bike will be more upright.

Not only, but it will also shorten the turn, so that you can get on the gas earlier to 1) stabilise the bike and 2) drive.

Another way to look at it, is ask yourself what will happen if you want to increase the speed through a turn, without increasing the steering rate? Let's say it takes you 1 second to go to full lean, on a line that takes you to the outside edge of the track on turn exit. Next time you increase the speed by 5mph, where will you end up? Wide of course. If you want to increase your speed through a turn but remain on an acceptable line, you must increase the rate of steering.

 

Good explanation. I misread this in TOTW 2 initially, so wasn't able to grasp it as well. This is very clear.

 

 

Professional racers do turn quick - very quick, sometimes it's hard to tell because of the high speeds (the faster you go, the slower you steer).

 

Sometimes.

 

Pro racers sometimes do QT's. There are 3 different basic lines. They have the qualifying line, the racing line, and the overtaking line.

 

The qualifying line is the fastest way around the track. They're not worried about protecting themselves from being passed, so they're using the QT to get themselves through the corners quicker.

 

The racing line is a defensive line. It involves trail braking so another rider can't outbreak you or get under you. Drive out is slower though. This is why when a rider gets out front he's going to take off on the others. He doesn't have any line to protect so he's going to use his qualifying lines. It will get him around the track quicker.

 

The overtaking line is used, obviously, when passing. It's a trail braking line also. It's going farther under than a racing line because the rider in front is using the racing line and the passing rider will want to get under him. It's a much slower line than qualifying line and somewhat slower than the racing line. It's why the announcers say things like how the rider in front of them is going to appreciate them passing each other. It takes both riders to slow down when one rider passes another going underneath.

 

Actually cutting under another rider is going to slow BOTH of them down. A pass is usually successful because one rider basically cut the other from his faster line. It forces the rider being passed to decelerate to the passing riders speed or go outside.

 

It's hard to do in a fast turn. The outside rider will carry so much more speed in a faster turn that he'll blaze past the rider attempting to pass as they go into the corner. A rider will still try it to maybe get in the other riders way or pass a less aggressive rider who will give up the line.

 

When one rider taps his tail telling another rider to follow him, it's in hopes the following rider will go to the qualifying line with the front rider so they can both hopefully get on the fastest line and catch the lead rider.

 

During practice, racers will use QT, and when they're ahead of the pack. Otherwise, a racer in the thick of it has to trail brake to be successful.

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Julian    0

Good points Jason. My original draft did in fact go into the 'defensive' line, where racers often straight-line towards an early turn entry, but I didn't want to divert from the topic too much. So let's clarify that on the turns where pro riders want to turn quick ... they turn very quick!

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So after four track days this year, three at Le Mans circuit and one at Fontenay Le Compte, both here in France I confirm that:

 

1/ I suck

2/ I cannot quick turn the bike

3/ I'm afraid to quick turn the bike

4/ I'm braking way early to be sure I can turn the bike "at my comfort level", which means if I do a corner in 2nd gear, the other guy is in 3rd...hell maybe even 4th.....

5/ I suck

 

I need the school and the slide bike......or I need to quick turn the bike many times until I break traction to find that limit.....and a willing sponsor to repair my bike thereafter!

 

I suck! :o

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faffi    12

Don't hold back, tells us what you really think :lol:

 

On dry asphalt with warm tyres, I doubt you are able to break traction with steering, no matter how fast you turn, as long as that's all you do. If you turn quickly when hard on the brakes, you could overpower grip, but even they you'll be surprised how quickly you can turn in if you ease off the brakes at the same time. Stop worrying, relax and keep practicing.

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mckeann    0

Cobie, can you post the video that you show in the classroom. Its the one of Dylan quick turning. I think it would be great for RidiculeFR to see how quick a bike can turn, to settle his mind. I know it helped me.

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I've just re-watched TOTW2 dvd again. Quick Turning is easily understood but the simplicity doesn't quite remove the fact that you need the committment(b@ll$) to do it. I mean, on track day, we're hurtling down the main straight, you get to the braking zone and there are like five bikes, only two of which can get a neat line through the corner. In a pressure situation like that, I am not confident enough to quick turn it. If the guys brake at 150m before entry point, I'm backing off at 250-200m so that I'm not stressed to turn in quickly.....I also don't know why CSS doesn't do a track day(s) in France? You do it in Spain, so why not France?.....In France, I could get to you with my own bike, race body work and fully equiped....learning on my own machine or getting scrutinized on my own bike would be so cool!

 

 

dsc03516u.jpg

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faffi    12

2/ I cannot quick turn the bike

3/ I'm afraid to quick turn the bike

I need to quick turn the bike many times until I break traction to find that limit.....and a willing sponsor to repair my bike thereafter!

 

 

I just read an article by Lane Campbell from 1978, a racer who also knew a thing or two about motorcycle design and the physical laws that are involved when riding. In the article he mentioned racers - on the low-grip (compared to today's) tyres available then - that snapped handlebars from the forces applied when quick-steering their racing bikes.

 

In other words -you're safe ;)

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khp    2

Ridicule,

 

Don't worry, you're not alone :)

 

This is an old classic text about racing:

 

Quick Success Racing Program

1) admit your bike sucks

2) spend a bunch of money making it lighter (carbon fiber, magnesium, titanium). spend a lot of time cutting off all those little frame bits that you don't need anymore, because you'll NEVER want the bike street-legal ever again.

3) admit your bike still sucks, but is easier to load into the truck

4) spend a bunch of money to make more horsepower

5) admit that your bike not only sucks, but is unreliable

6) spend a bunch more money so the power you bought *is* reliable

7) admit that the bike is fast, but unridable

8) spend a bunch of money getting your suspension redone

9) admit your bike is fast, unridable, and more expensive

10) spend lots of time trying all those settings, and getting no change in lap times.

11) admit that you have no idea what all those knobs and screw are for, and find someone who knows what they're doing, suspension wise.

12) admit that your bike is now light, fast, and handles great, but that you suck.

Note: If you stay with the sport long enough, you can repeat this cycle endlessly. Subsequent cycles can omit all odd-numbered steps, and consolidate the even numbered steps except 12, giving my patent-pending "Two Step Program for Racing":

1) Throw all available money at the bike

2) And realize "I still suck at riding"

 

 

Those that recognize yourself in the above, please raise your hand. Just one hand will do, thankyou.

 

 

Kai

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