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bradvanhorn

Steering With The Footpegs?

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I saw this quote today, and I was a bit perplexed. I haven't the expertise to say this is definitively right or wrong (although I'll instinctively say I think it's wrong), but I certainly do not recall anyone at CSS suggesting anything like this. Also, it seems to me the "no body steering" bike disproves this. Anyone have any thoughts to share?

"The footpegs are big levers… yeah, the handlebar is the easiest way to steer but the most efficient way and smoothest way is with the footpegs."

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I saw this quote today, and I was a bit perplexed. I haven't the expertise to say this is definitively right or wrong (although I'll instinctively say I think it's wrong), but I certainly do not recall anyone at CSS suggesting anything like this. Also, it seems to me the "no body steering" bike disproves this. Anyone have any thoughts to share?

 

"The footpegs are big levers… yeah, the handlebar is the easiest way to steer but the most efficient way and smoothest way is with the footpegs."

 

 

where did you read that nonsense? :D I can assure you, even putting all of your entire weight on a single peg and jumping up and down, makes very little impact into making a bike steer. Sure, using footpegs to help support you on the bike, (i.e. locked into the bike), is very important, but only the bars really steer a bike.

 

Bullet

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I saw this quote today, and I was a bit perplexed. I haven't the expertise to say this is definitively right or wrong (although I'll instinctively say I think it's wrong), but I certainly do not recall anyone at CSS suggesting anything like this. Also, it seems to me the "no body steering" bike disproves this. Anyone have any thoughts to share?

"The footpegs are big levers… yeah, the handlebar is the easiest way to steer but the most efficient way and smoothest way is with the footpegs."

 

Wow, I'd like to know where that came from, too!

 

Interesting that this person says the handlebars are "the easiest way" but the footpegs are "the most efficient way". No wonder you are a bit perplexed, so am I!

Easiest = acheived with minumum effort

Efficient = acheived with minimum wasted effort

Hm.

 

The quote also says the footpegs are big levers... well, the handlebars are even bigger levers, right? Plus they are connected to the steering head, and the front wheel. Call me radical, but I think we are supposed to use them for steering. :)

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where did you read that nonsense?
Wow, I'd like to know where that came from, too!

I am usually a bit reluctant to call people out, especially when they are not (that I know of) around to defend themselves. I'll put it this way, try Google-ing that quote and see what you get.

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where did you read that nonsense?
Wow, I'd like to know where that came from, too!

I am usually a bit reluctant to call people out, especially when they are not (that I know of) around to defend themselves. I'll put it this way, try Google-ing that quote and see what you get.

 

Shows you a misunderstanding can happen at any level I guess. ;)

 

Bullet

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I think that weighting the inside foot peg might work for one reason: It might make you open up your hips and point them in the direction of the turn. That's bound to be more comfortable, and put your shoulders and arms in a better position to control the bars. So, again, we're back to steering the bike with the bars, but in a position with better leverage.

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The pro riders hang off their inside foot. Maybe Schwantz is referring to pivot steering as using the peg. I'd bet he doesn't actually teach to "steer with the pegs."

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I've read comments from people who've been to his school adamant that you just use the pegs. Just goes to show, that the best 'do-ers' aren't necessarily the best teachers.

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I knew Kevin Schwantz didn't teach just to steer with the pegs, so I dove a little (very little) deeper and found this from an article in the March 2002 issue of Roadrunner magazine by Schwantz. He teaches counter-steering. He HAS TO because it's the only way to effectively steer the bike.

 

"We discussed proper body position in the previous issue and using the right body position is key to steering a bike effectively. Your initial steering input should begin with counter steering – pushing forward on the inside bar to use the front wheel's gyroscopic effect to bank the bike into the corner while pressing down on the inside footpeg – another proof of Sir Isaac Newton's dictum: "For every action, there is an equal and opposite reaction."

 

The is effective because once counter steering banks a motorcycle into the turn, increasing lean angle is a matter of pivoting the bike around its center of mass. The greater the lean angle, the tighter it carves through the turn. More than footrests, footpegs essentially function as levers sited on either side of, and slightly below the center of mass. Pressing down on the inside footpeg helps pivot the bike around its center of mass and steers it into the corner with less effort from your upper body at the bars."

 

 

It's real simple. What happens when we counter-steer? We give the bars a push and, if you are positioned properly and know to take your weight off the bars, the front tire will passively turn itself into the direction of the corner to match the lean of the bike and help the rear tire stay in its position and take some of the weight (about 40%) off the rear tire as well. It won't hamper the bike turning if you weight the inside peg if you've already given a steering input. It will make you sore and give the sensation that you're fighting the bike. At the beginning of your next track-day, see which way the track turns. Toward the end of the day assess which leg is more sore. If you're using pivot steering it SHOULD BE both legs or even your left on a right heavy (clockwise) track, for example, but I'll guarantee that most of your right legs are sore on a right heavy track and vice versa. That means you're already doing what Schwantz is teaching. You're weighting the inside peg.

 

It's what he believes is a more effective way of turning, so he teaches it. It's his "pivot point." A lot of people leave there believing his way is the best way just like the CSS people subscribe to Code's method. For the record, I'm a pivot steer kind of guy. What I've gathered in my readings is that Schwantz wants to be recognized as having the better concept as to how one would get the bike around the corner easier, so he doesn't mention counter-steering. When he does, he says it's not an "art," but a necessity.

 

What would be needed is an argument as to why his method is inferior to using the outside leg to pivot. I'd say that weighting the inside leg is a great way to make the hook-turn less effective. If you watched the Donnington round of WSBK, you heard the announcers praise Camier for turning the Aprilia better than they'd seen. Yes, hook-turn please. You're already being pulled down, which is inside on the bike as you lean. If I were to use my inside peg to put my weight I'd essentially be fighting what nature has given me. With my outside leg locked in, I can still fall toward my inside leg very well. Doesn't seem to work while weighting the inside leg. The ability to thrust my weight into the tank, which I could do easily if my outer peg were being weighed, would be more difficult unless I picked my butt off the seat. There's only one way to find out. Next time I go out to practice I'll work on it and see if what I'm thinking applies in the real world.

 

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Sometimes people done realize what's really happening and only focuses on part of of the body machine like pushing on the foot pegs without realizing that they're also moving the handle bars.

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I've just figured a couple of things out. Well, figured something out and have a question (and yes ,I'm studying in Vegas).

 

In TOTW 2, page 85, Keith discovered (My Discovery) that weighting the outside peg dropped his pivot point and decreased a wiggling sensation while steering. Although I can think of a few reasons off the top of my head as to why you shouldn't weigh the inside peg, wouldn't weighting the inside peg cause the same effect, loss of that wiggling feeling? Puts the pivot point in the same place.

 

I'd also think (figured this out while typing) that the argument could be made that pivot steering, while causing one to lock in, would cause a decrease in the muscles used because you're hanging your weight with a wedged in stick (your leg), so to speak, rather than supporting all that weight with one leg. Yes, when you first start pivot steering you're sore for a couple of days, but after trying to actively weight the inside peg one trackday, I had trouble walking for a week. That's a sure sign I wore those muscles out, which is more than what happened after pivot steering.

 

Although it gives little reaction to massive input, you CAN "steer" (guide the course of an object) the bike with the inside peg. My question is: would it have ANY effect on the bike against that gyroscopic force at speed, and would it do anything to change the direction of the bike in that little amount of time spent going through a corner without giving an active steering input with the bars?

 

By watching the TOTW 2 video with their demonstration, I'd say not at all. Maybe when someone tries to put all their weight on an inside, 3 inch peg at 90 mph, their natural reaction is to hold on to something and they actually give the outside bars a pull input.

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I thought you only wieghted the inside peg if you want the bike to slide in the corner?

 

That's not the way Schwantz teaches it. He encourages weighting the inside peg. I wasn't at the level to make the bike slide the first and only time I tried it. Seems like there are a few people who like weighting the inside peg. I don't get it, but who's to say. I just can't think of one reason to do it, and have a number of reasons why I think it's inferior to locking in the outside leg.

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I thought you only wieghted the inside peg if you want the bike to slide in the corner?

 

That's not the way Schwantz teaches it. He encourages weighting the inside peg. I wasn't at the level to make the bike slide the first and only time I tried it. Seems like there are a few people who like weighting the inside peg. I don't get it, but who's to say. I just can't think of one reason to do it, and have a number of reasons why I think it's inferior to locking in the outside leg.

 

ah yeah absolutely! but that what i've heard people saying on occasion is "to mate the bike slide in a corner i put pressure on the inside peg". I tried it, the bike didn't slide and i ended up losing my grip on the tank and running wide - so i haven't tried it since.

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I read some years ago that riders like Doohan, Schwantz and Rossi etc. could change the leg they put weight on as many as 20 times around a single corner in order to control the bike, mostly sliding and wheelspin. In addition, they would repeatedly move their weight back and forth to further control grip between the front and rear wheel.

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I read some years ago that riders like Doohan, Schwantz and Rossi etc. could change the leg they put weight on as many as 20 times around a single corner in order to control the bike, mostly sliding and wheelspin. In addition, they would repeatedly move their weight back and forth to further control grip between the front and rear wheel.

Pardon my input but I ride a scooter daily , the techniques that is present in the TWIST2 book and DVD

 

those that don't require any tank input works for me :)

 

Maybe the foot peg technique is only unique to a 2 wheeler with a tank that facilitates locking into and race style pegs? (i dont have the luxury of both on my daily ride , )

 

just my 2c ^^

 

 

 

 

 

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Yes, it won't work on a scooter, just like it won't work on a cruiser with forward mounted pegs.

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I thought you only wieghted the inside peg if you want the bike to slide in the corner?

 

That's not the way Schwantz teaches it. He encourages weighting the inside peg. I wasn't at the level to make the bike slide the first and only time I tried it. Seems like there are a few people who like weighting the inside peg. I don't get it, but who's to say. I just can't think of one reason to do it, and have a number of reasons why I think it's inferior to locking in the outside leg.

 

ah yeah absolutely! but that what i've heard people saying on occasion is "to mate the bike slide in a corner i put pressure on the inside peg". I tried it, the bike didn't slide and i ended up losing my grip on the tank and running wide - so i haven't tried it since.

 

I've been thinking about this, and given that weighting the inside peg makes the bike slide easier, couldn't the argument be made that, for us mere mortals, pivot steering increases available traction?

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I thought you only wieghted the inside peg if you want the bike to slide in the corner?

 

That's not the way Schwantz teaches it. He encourages weighting the inside peg. I wasn't at the level to make the bike slide the first and only time I tried it. Seems like there are a few people who like weighting the inside peg. I don't get it, but who's to say. I just can't think of one reason to do it, and have a number of reasons why I think it's inferior to locking in the outside leg.

 

ah yeah absolutely! but that what i've heard people saying on occasion is "to mate the bike slide in a corner i put pressure on the inside peg". I tried it, the bike didn't slide and i ended up losing my grip on the tank and running wide - so i haven't tried it since.

 

I've been thinking about this, and given that weighting the inside peg makes the bike slide easier, couldn't the argument be made that, for us mere mortals, pivot steering increases available traction?

 

 

 

 

could it be that he initates the slide to steer the bike via power drift? Stoner did a long power drift in the latest motoGP.

 

 

Asides from technique, road conditions and the bike's setup is critical too to a power slide. one missing variable and its gonna be nasty imho...

 

 

 

 

just my 2c

 

 

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