mugget Posted June 11, 2012 Report Share Posted June 11, 2012 Anyway we've been dragged off a bit onto RPs etc. and I am still wondering about an answer to Lnewqban's original question, about judging entry speed on the track. Judging, say, a braking point is one thing, it's a spot on the tarmac or whatever, but how do you "measure" your speed? If you're going to incrementally speed up on each lap, you therefore need to have a handle on how fast you're going. Okay, so back to the original question of judging entry speed on a track. First off I've just got to say that the idea of track riders being at maximum traction/lean on every corner is a bit of a misnomer. It just doesn't happen that way - you can go very fast without even getting close to the traction limits, and you can do so in completely safety and control. Sure, you may have some ridres say "I'm riding on the limit, i can't go any faster", but I'd also bet that it would be people in the slower groups saying that. That is where good technique really comes into play. Those slower riders may well be at the limits of their ability, only because they're riding with poor technique and by doing so they're not letting their bikes do the jobs they're designed for. As for actually measuring speed - to ride at a high level requires an equally accurate sense of speed. This is what the "no brakes riding" in Level 1 is designed for - to help riders develop their sense of speed. As they say - if you can't set your speed in 300m with no brakes, you have no hope of doing it in 100m with brakes. I'm not sure if there's any tips or method to developing that sense of speed, aside from practice, practice, practice. I would say that it's not so much a technique of "measuring speed", but rather a "sense of speed". I guess it's more like being able to accurately judge length and height. It's just something you need to keep doing and developing. As for actually increasing corner entry speed on a track - I approach it this way: I leave my braking and turn points (that way I don't have to keep using more attention on changing RP's), then I gradually increase my entry speed. Of course if my turn point is the same and I'm entering the corner faster it means I will need to steer quicker. So for me those two go hand in hand - increasing entry speed and increasing the steering rate. Good vision becomes even more important here, because if you're entering a corner faster you really will need to know just what turn rate is required. So in that respect the Two Step is just as applicable on the street and the track. When my entry speed has increased so much that my braking point is limiting my entry speed, then I will move my braking and turn points closer again and the process starts over. But I've found that if I try and move my braking and turn points and increase entry speed all at once, it becomes really difficult and I'm much more prone to mistakes. On the subject of that 180 degree turn and observing riders there, I wouldn't spend too much time analysing that. If anything I would look at just the fastest group, only to get ideas and see what's possible. But I would not try to copy their line, I would never try and copy someone's line. Much better to find your own line, try different things in that turn yourself and see what works for you. Maybe all the riders just don't like that turn, maybe they're all riding it lazily? You wouldn't want to copy that! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Hotfoot Posted June 11, 2012 Report Share Posted June 11, 2012 2-step is a vision technique. If you can't see, you can't really use it, can you? If you can't see the shape of the turn, you can't really choose an apex or turn point, you simply have to wait until you are far enough into the turn to see how it's shaped, and THEN you can choose your points and apply the 2-step. A new rider, unfamiliar with the 2-step, might find their eyes drawn to the inside of the corner, and unintentionally steer the bike there, and end up riding around the inside edge of the corner - not ideal, since it tightens the curve AND makes the visibility even worse. 2-step helps with this as well. Is this 2-step visual technique used in actual racing or track days? I ask because, in Florida track days, I have seen a lot of "riding around the inside edge of the corner", especially in turns close to 180 degrees. Yes the 2-step visual technique is used in actual racing and track days. I think obviously it is not used by everyone. I'll generalize it this way: those who know the 2-step use it; those who don't know the 2-step, well they don't know what they don't know. Riding the inside edge also can be a method to protect your line so you don't get passed on the inside, although I suspect this is not the scenario most frequently seen at track days. On a very long 180 degree or more turn, there may be riders that figure the quickest way around the turn is to take the shortest path, which would be riding around the inside edge. On a low HP bike, if you are already entering the turn in top gear at full throttle, that might in fact be the best strategy! Which line is the best/fastest line can be an endless debate - every turn is different, and of course you must play to your own strengths and the characteristics of your particular bike. I think the main point here (talking about the 2-step) is that you make a PLAN, and follow it, instead of allowing your Survival Reactions to tell you when and where to turn. Yes, 2-Step is used in racing and track days. A more advanced rider might already be well capable of separating the actions of looking and turning, but 2-step is still utilized, most commonly to improve accuracy to the apex (which becomes more and more important as the pace comes up) or to correct a problem with vision getting hung up a little too long on something (brake marker, rough patch in the pavement, etc.), it helps the rider notice the visual lag and improve the timing of the look-in. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Hotfoot Posted June 11, 2012 Report Share Posted June 11, 2012 Anyway we've been dragged off a bit onto RPs etc. and I am still wondering about an answer to Lnewqban's original question, about judging entry speed on the track. Judging, say, a braking point is one thing, it's a spot on the tarmac or whatever, but how do you "measure" your speed? If you're going to incrementally speed up on each lap, you therefore need to have a handle on how fast you're going. Mugget and Brad covered a lot of good points, but one thing I remember Keith suggests in Twist is to try increasing your entry speed a little at a time, by coming in at a bit higher RPM the next lap. That, at least, is something you can feel and hear, so you aren't trying to look at the speedo; and if you DO need to look at your tach, hopefully it is highly visible so you can either see it in peripheral vision or glance at it (and process the info) more quickly than the speedo. That's the best way I know (maybe someone else has something better!) to judge/measure incremental increases in entry speed from lap to lap, on the fly. A data logger would help, but only after the fact, when you review the download! The OP, as I recall, has been through Level 1 at the school, which does have the no-brakes drill - but in Level 2 a number of other drills are introduced that can help tremendously with sense of speed. To give you an idea of the TYPE of skills they are, think about this: Which of your senses is the MOST important for judging your speed? If the flow of information you are getting is intermittent, choppy, or distorted, can that make judging your speed difficult? For those of you that have taken Level 2 or higher, what skill helped YOU the most with judging entry speed? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bradvanhorn Posted June 11, 2012 Report Share Posted June 11, 2012 ...one thing I remember Keith suggests in Twist is to try increasing your entry speed a little at a time, by coming in at a bit higher RPM the next lap. That, at least, is something you can feel and hear, so you aren't trying to look at the speedo... I'm pretty sure this is what Cobie and Pete and Lonnie, and every other coach I've asked, have said to do For those of you that have taken Level 2 or higher, what skill helped YOU the most with judging entry speed? I think "no brakes" helped me a lot at first. While I was at NOLA a couple weeks ago I felt "wide-view" had moved ahead. When I had a good wide-view + 2-step then everything felt almost slow-motion; it seemed much easier to [in small bits] increase my entry speed. On a related note, Mike put small gold stars on my faceshield at the edge of my peripheral vision (can't remember what he called this) and I spent some time working to ensure I would see the stars (i.e. keep the wide-view open) while I was riding. That was a cool technique and I'm keeping those stars in place Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Stewal Posted June 12, 2012 Report Share Posted June 12, 2012 I imaging another way would be to change your braking point. Does anyone have an opinion on this technique? It would be similar to increasing your rpm but wouldn't require looking down to see if you're 500rpm higher. Start out with a braking point that results in a comfortable entry speed (braking point x). Keep the same braking pressure and line as best you can. Remember where BPx is to reference back to it. Make another BP 10yards down the track (BPy). With the same pressure this will result in a faster entry speed. Don't make huge jumps moving your BP and leave a little room at the exit each time so that you don't risk going off track once you find your speed. You would only look for when you just start to run wide. Or also if your SR's start to fire off. If you just run wide using BPy, then moving a few yards sooner should be a good speed for that line. Any objections or improvements to this method? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mugget Posted June 12, 2012 Report Share Posted June 12, 2012 Hey Stewal, I touched on that point in my last post just a bit above. I have tried moving the braking point closer to the corner (in an effort to increase corner entry speed) and I found it really difficult. By all means give it a try and see how it works for you, but I would prefer to change as few variables as possible so that it's easier to spread your attention without getting stretched too thin! If you keep the same braking point that's one less thing to worry about, you just don't brake as hard, so you carry more speed towards the corner. If you leave your turn point the same, that's one less variable taken out of the equation as well. That leaves more attention free to deal with the turn rate - which is really the only new thing you have to deal with if you use that method. (The speed is new, but you've already set that, so by the time you reach the turn point your one final variable is turn rate.) That will take you so far, but you'll get to a certain point where you will need to change your braking and turn points. But I look at those as large changes, not something to be done from lap to lap. For lap to lap changes I focus on faster entry speed and quicker turn rate. But when I do change my braking or turn points I leave them set for a while and the process starts over where my focus shifts back to entry speed & turn rate on a lap by lap basis. I'm sure there are other ways, but that's what I do personally and it's been very effective so far! Listening to RPM is a good one, something reliable that you can relate to a particular speed. I usually ride in a gear higher to smooth the power delivery, I just hope that my sense of speed doesn't get thrown off kilter when I start using a lower gear! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
faffi Posted June 12, 2012 Report Share Posted June 12, 2012 Okay, so back to the original question of judging entry speed on a track. First off I've just got to say that the idea of track riders being at maximum traction/lean on every corner is a bit of a misnomer. It just doesn't happen that way - you can go very fast without even getting close to the traction limits, and you can do so in completely safety and control. Sure, you may have some ridres say "I'm riding on the limit, i can't go any faster", but I'd also bet that it would be people in the slower groups saying that. That is where good technique really comes into play. Those slower riders may well be at the limits of their ability, only because they're riding with poor technique and by doing so they're not letting their bikes do the jobs they're designed for. What level are you talking? I doubt you could win even a local AMA club event without sliding the tyres, but definitely not at the national (or world) level. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mugget Posted June 12, 2012 Report Share Posted June 12, 2012 Okay, so back to the original question of judging entry speed on a track. First off I've just got to say that the idea of track riders being at maximum traction/lean on every corner is a bit of a misnomer. It just doesn't happen that way - you can go very fast without even getting close to the traction limits, and you can do so in completely safety and control. Sure, you may have some ridres say "I'm riding on the limit, i can't go any faster", but I'd also bet that it would be people in the slower groups saying that. That is where good technique really comes into play. Those slower riders may well be at the limits of their ability, only because they're riding with poor technique and by doing so they're not letting their bikes do the jobs they're designed for. What level are you talking? I doubt you could win even a local AMA club event without sliding the tyres, but definitely not at the national (or world) level. I'm just talking about going very fast, not racing, and not going 10/10ths. I just felt that it was important to mention that point because so many people don't realise just how high/fast the limits are, I know I didn't. Taking myself as an example - I used to ride in the Intermediate Slow group, and was there for 5 years or so! You'd think that I would have been able to figure out a few things and go faster, but apparently not. And I think it's fair to say that there would be a lot of other people in the same situation! After doing CSS Level 1 I moved up to Intermediate Fast, and it was immediately a very comfortable pace. After some more track days my pace improved so much that I'm riding more towards the top end in that group. Now to give an idea of the speed difference and what is really possible - at my last track day there were a bunch of guys in the slower group who I overheard talking about how they're dragging feet, pegs, knees and who knows what else! From the looks of their tyres they didn't have much rubber left to use either, they would have been in trouble if they tried to go much faster. But here's the really amazing thing - I am riding faster than just a year ago (by a fair margin as well), and I feel much safer and more confident than ever before. Actually, the really amazing thing may be that I'm doing all of that and I still have more to come (I'm not using the tyres to the edge and I'm not getting my knee down)! So - going very fast in complete control, and safely? Absolutely! Drifting a bit off topic again... anyway the reason I mention all that is just to show how much of a difference good technique makes, and that the idea of everyone who rides on track is doing so at the limits is not really true. (For anyone who has held back from track days because they're worried that they'll have to push to the limit, or be around other riders doing ludicrous speeds, that's not how it is at all!) And as far as judging corner entry speed it really doesn't matter if you are riding on the limit, or just at a fast, safe & comfortable pace (maybe there are some people for whom the limit is a safe & comfortable pace!) - but the process remains the same. And if a mug like me can do it, it's a great testimony to the CSS curriculum! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Stewal Posted June 13, 2012 Report Share Posted June 13, 2012 Hey Stewal, I touched on that point in my last post just a bit above. I have tried moving the braking point closer to the corner (in an effort to increase corner entry speed) and I found it really difficult. By all means give it a try and see how it works for you, but I would prefer to change as few variables as possible so that it's easier to spread your attention without getting stretched too thin! If you keep the same braking point that's one less thing to worry about, you just don't brake as hard, so you carry more speed towards the corner. If you leave your turn point the same, that's one less variable taken out of the equation as well. That leaves more attention free to deal with the turn rate - which is really the only new thing you have to deal with if you use that method. (The speed is new, but you've already set that, so by the time you reach the turn point your one final variable is turn rate.) That will take you so far, but you'll get to a certain point where you will need to change your braking and turn points. But I look at those as large changes, not something to be done from lap to lap. For lap to lap changes I focus on faster entry speed and quicker turn rate. But when I do change my braking or turn points I leave them set for a while and the process starts over where my focus shifts back to entry speed & turn rate on a lap by lap basis. I'm sure there are other ways, but that's what I do personally and it's been very effective so far! Listening to RPM is a good one, something reliable that you can relate to a particular speed. I usually ride in a gear higher to smooth the power delivery, I just hope that my sense of speed doesn't get thrown off kilter when I start using a lower gear! Thanks for the feedback Mugget, I've never tried it but as i was thinking about it, moving the BP and keeping all other variables the same (with the exception being turn rate) seemed a very basic way to increase the entry speed especially if the rider was not good at judging his speed visually. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mugget Posted June 13, 2012 Report Share Posted June 13, 2012 No worries Stewal, wasn't sure if you saw my earlier post... I'm interested to see other peoples thoughts and experience with that as well. There must be a bunch of others who've tried moving their braking points to increase entry speed? Did it work out? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
johnnyrod Posted June 13, 2012 Report Share Posted June 13, 2012 So far I move my braking (and other) points to go with the increase in speed as I get it together (it takes ages for me to get back up to speed), but not tried to use that to increase entry speed per se. I mainly use engine speed (sound) to judge entry speed but I guess part of the problem is the rate at which you can scrub off speed, and if you trigger an SR then you end braking a bit deeper, enter slower etc. and make a hash of it. During braking the flow of info is fairly rapid and I dont think that vision gives you good enough info on speed while its changing so quickly. To my mind the no-brakes drills are to reduce the number of things you're doing e.g. concentrate on quick turns without also concentrating on brakes/gears etc. The speeds were low enough that your sense of speed doesn't come into it much, although I have heard peoepl say they entered bends faster than they had thought they would if they were riding normally, the mental crutch of the brake being taken away made the same speed feel faster. I'm waiting for the rubbish British weather to stop raining and looking forward to a session at Cadwell. Coppice is a fast left hander, I hit it about 100mph, but I know some people go in about 120-130 knee on deck (which is almost flat out on an SV, I hit about 120-125 before rolling off). There's more ground clearance left, bike feels solid etc., I just need to get into it quicker somehow! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Hotfoot Posted June 13, 2012 Report Share Posted June 13, 2012 Hey Stewal, I touched on that point in my last post just a bit above. I have tried moving the braking point closer to the corner (in an effort to increase corner entry speed) and I found it really difficult. Moving the brake point later can work (especially for racing) but it's a steep gradient, and can fire off a lot of SRs, including target locking on the turn point... and what does THAT do to your sense of speed? Cobie's recommendation to me some time ago was to move the braking RELEASE point earlier, instead of moving the brake point later. If you get OFF the brakes a little earlier each lap, that brings your entry speed up. Knowing you COULD stay on the brakes longer (if you really had to) helps avoid panic, and being off the brakes before the turn point helps focus your attention on entry speed instead of on braking. It maks a nice intermediate step between no-brakes and moving the brake point later. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
faffi Posted June 13, 2012 Report Share Posted June 13, 2012 Brilliant! So simple and logic, as most great stuff! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bradvanhorn Posted June 13, 2012 Report Share Posted June 13, 2012 Moving the brake point later can work (especially for racing) but it's a steep gradient, and can fire off a lot of SRs, including target locking on the turn point... and what does THAT do to your sense of speed? When I brake too late then I do feel the SRs fire off, I wind up taking the corner slower than I intended, and I feel shaken by it all. When I brake earlier then I come off the brakes earlier, my overall speed creeps up, no SRs fire, and I feel good about it. Cobie's recommendation to me some time ago was to move the braking RELEASE point earlier, instead of moving the brake point later. If you get OFF the brakes a little earlier each lap, that brings your entry speed up. Knowing you COULD stay on the brakes longer (if you really had to) helps avoid panic, and being off the brakes before the turn point helps focus your attention on entry speed instead of on braking. It maks a nice intermediate step between no-brakes and moving the brake point later. I recall reading something similar in 'The Soft Science of Road Racing Motorcycles'. I'll give it my own paraphrase: it's more important to finish braking so your entry speed is right for when you reach your turn point; thus it is less about the point where you start braking and more about the point where you stop braking. It took my brain a while to come to grips with this idea. A couple days later I was able to discuss this with Cobie and he agreed I was working my way down the right path Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mugget Posted June 14, 2012 Report Share Posted June 14, 2012 Cobie's recommendation to me some time ago was to move the braking RELEASE point earlier, instead of moving the brake point later. If you get OFF the brakes a little earlier each lap, that brings your entry speed up. Knowing you COULD stay on the brakes longer (if you really had to) helps avoid panic, and being off the brakes before the turn point helps focus your attention on entry speed instead of on braking. It maks a nice intermediate step between no-brakes and moving the brake point later. Good words! That makes much more sense, seems like it would be easier to measure the brake release point rather than thinking "don't brake as hard". I will be giving that one a try at the very next chance! Moving the brake point later can work (especially for racing) but it's a steep gradient, and can fire off a lot of SRs, including target locking on the turn point... and what does THAT do to your sense of speed? Yep, I always felt that moving the brake point created a lot of new info to processed at once. Target locking... I know that for myself it would mean my sense of speed is way out of whack, usually end up panicking thinking that I'm going much faster than I actually am. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lnewqban Posted June 15, 2012 Author Report Share Posted June 15, 2012 Thank you all much; I am really learning from your interesting posts. Do you carry a safety factor into the curve, regarding entry speed? Like a special technique that you reserve for the case of an error for excess, traffic situations, etc.? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Hotfoot Posted June 15, 2012 Report Share Posted June 15, 2012 Yep. Hook turn. It's a Level 3 technique, very handy. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Stewal Posted June 15, 2012 Report Share Posted June 15, 2012 Moving the brake point later can work (especially for racing) but it's a steep gradient, and can fire off a lot of SRs, including target locking on the turn point... and what does THAT do to your sense of speed? Cobie's recommendation to me some time ago was to move the braking RELEASE point earlier, instead of moving the brake point later. If you get OFF the brakes a little earlier each lap, that brings your entry speed up. Knowing you COULD stay on the brakes longer (if you really had to) helps avoid panic, and being off the brakes before the turn point helps focus your attention on entry speed instead of on braking. It maks a nice intermediate step between no-brakes and moving the brake point later. Awesome idea Hotfoot!!...and Cobie. I knew moving the brake point could get you into trouble in a hurry, thats why i was curious if anyone used that method. The Release point completely slipped my mind and is a great fix. Personally, i found myself going into corners faster during the no brakes drill than if i had started out with brakes. I think it was a combo of where my attention was and being a little over zealous with the throttle and my roll off considering 4th gear doesn't do much slowing. But if i could have used brakes i prob never would have learned to go into turn 1 at NJMP as hard as i did and because of that Turn 1 was my most comfortable and best corner throughout the day. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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