Drill For Learning To Trust The Tires?

[Lnewqban]

Seriously, thanks again - I now have *more* than enough to work on next track day. Unfortunately that looks to be a month off...but it will be at my regular track, so I can gauge my improvement from the lap times.

Just focus on the important:

 

http://forums.superb...p?showtopic=579

 

"If you think what I am saying is: you have to push through the fear barriers to get to clean riding, you are right; but the push comes after the understanding of where your attention should or should not be focused.

.........There are basic principals to riding. What you ride doesn't change them. Where you ride doesn't change them. How fast you ride doesn't change them. They are what they are: they are not based on my opinions about them, they are based on well defined and easily understood basic principals you will understand.

.........It has taken 30 years of devoted time and attention to separate the important from the unimportant and to figure out ways we can trick ourselves into giving up the resist-error-resist-terror way of doing things in favor of the focus-flow-focus-go mode............."

Keith Code

[Gr8Dane]

 

 

 

YOUR TIRES ARE NOT THE PROBLEM!

 

"I just can't convince myself that the front won't wash out, but never, ever ever get any indication from my tires that a loss of grip is imminent - it is all in my head.

 

Of course this creates a lot of tension, but I have been able to force myself to relax more at the bars and this has helped the way the bike steers and handles. What should I do next?"

 

 

Let's address your main concern: ' Washing out' or 'tucking' the front end.

• As a track day coach I have seen that happen any number of times.
• Typically in slow speed corners
• Typically at moderate lean angles
• Typically the rider has no idea why he or she crashed

1. My first advice is: get professional help. There is NO way talking about this problem will solve it. You learn by doing. Ride the slide/lean bike. Allows you to truly explore the limits. You can't crash. Massive confidence builder. Seriously. You are going to have to spend some money, but it's certainly cheaper than crashing your bike and getting hurt.
2. Have you ever ridden dirt bikes? If so, have you ever had the front end 'wash out' or 'tuck' ? Those of you who have will probably agree that lean angle had little or nothing to do with it. Rather, it's caused by aggressive and/or plain wrong steering input. A death grip on the bars will make this happen. A sudden input of steering effort will make this happen. A transition from one type of surface to another will make this happen. End result is that the trajectory of the bike differs from the direction of the front wheel. The kinetic energy of the bike ( speed X weight ) will overpower the available grip of the front tire and down you go.
3. Go play in the dirt. (Borrow a small dirtbike, 80 -100 cc) Preferably sand or mud. Practice slow speed turns. Then add aggressive steering INTO the turn with specific intent of 'tucking' and sliding the front tire! How do you save the it? Counter-steer, just like you would in a car. In other words, if you are turning left, yank the handlebars right, straighten out the front tire, done! Bear in mind, this is what you do on a dirt-bike, in slippery conditions. On the track, just relaxing your steering input will usually do the trick. This allows the front tire to regain it's natural direction of travel and regain traction.
4. Once you have figured out how to do this, it becomes second nature. The guys who crash simply are not aware of what is happening and that leaves them ill prepared to deal with it. You have about 1/4 to 1/2 of a second to identify and arrest the front end 'tuck'. If you know how, it's really quite fun.
5. Another fun dirt bike drill is to move your weight all the way onto the rear fender, and lock up the front wheel at about 5-10 mph and slide it for a few feet, then let go of the front brake.The idea is to eventually come to a complete stop without crashing. If you feel you are losing it, let go of the front brake. One day, this practice will save your hide on the track!

How do you identify the 'tuck' before it's too late?

1. First, you will feel a vibration in the bars as the front tire starts scrubbing. This is pretty much the only warning you are going to get.
   
2. Next, you will feel the bike under-steer, drifting out-wards. If you get to this point without reacting, well, you're probably going to lose it.

 

 

Ever done a two-up ride with a pro racer ? On my very first track day at Willow Springs almost 15 years ago, I hitched a ride with Jason Pridmore. What an amazing eye-opener! Corner speed and lean angles I had never experienced before, and could not have imagined.... And he was just cruising....

 

 

 

 

 

 

[mugget]

The CSS method actually states (and this is from memory) that you should start cracking open the throttle as soon as possible after your turn input is complete, not the turn itself. It then comes down to your interpretation of the 'as soon as possible' part.

 

Ah yes, that is true, just what the book says! As soon as possible does not mean the apex, right before or right after the apex, or any other particular point in the corner. (Ref: TOTW II Ch. 5 - Get It On.) But is it possible that it is actually put differently to students at the schools? Because I could have sworn that it was, that was one thing that stuck in my mind after Level 1, to get on the throttle as soon as possible when you know you will reach your apex. In any case it seems that it would be a significant factor - whether or not you were sure of making your apex? No point in opening the throttle if you've made your steering input, but still need to stay on your current line to make the apex, opening the throttle then would just send you wide. And that's not to say that you're waiting until too late in the corner. Just like with the Two Step, you look into the corner once you know you will hit your turn point (not as you hit your turn point, but before). The same is true of the throttle - you open it when you know you will reach your apex (not when you have reached your apex, but before).

[mugget]

I just got around to reading the article that you posted the link for Lnewqban (and others?) and found a really interesting point that could relate to a kind of drill or exercise to get comfortable with tyre squirm and traction.

 

The Barriers To Improvement

 

 

What's Important?

 

In the tire squirm example: tire squirm is important to you but your control over the throttle is far more important. In the end it will be mastery of it that allows you to move through the tire squirming barrier and get to the point where proper tire spinning is comfy.

 

As you bring the bike up out of the turn and apply more and more throttle the rear end tends to stiffen, as a result, the squirmy little mini-slides are more easily achieved.

Because of that, the drive area off corners would be the important place to begin to experiment with squirm and spin. Why? It's safer. Tire slip is tire slip and the rules say that slip at big lean angles is going to get worse a whole lot quicker than if the bike were more upright. This is important for you to know. It gives a precise area (turn exit) and action (bringing up the bike) to coordinate with your idea of tire spinning and throttle application.

 

 

My question is - which part of the turn is safer? Is this referring to the area where you really start to consciously stand the bike up and get hard on the throttle? Of does the drive area off corners also include from the moment you crack open the throttle, even if that is near the apex or before?

 

That area of hard drive off corners when the bike is coming up to near upright has probably always been my biggest weakness, I suppose it still is. I always felt that any type of squirm or slide there would be much larger (with potential for more serious negative consequences) because the acceleration force and speed are much greater. So I started to feel out tyre squirm/slide/traction closer to the apex, just when I start to crack on the throttle and I was much more comfortable with that. Especially with road tyres that were wearing/worn on the side, that squirm limit was much sooner, and much more accessible to me with my then skill level. (I am not talking about knee-down lean angles, probably something similar to what's shown in my avatar, although that was taken over a year ago before I had been to CSS.)

 

Anyway, it's only recently that I've been confident to start pushing more on the hard drive out of corners. Working on my vision has helped a lot there, but I also realised that I'm much more comfortable with the squirm/slide feeling as a result of those early throttle, mid-corner squirms. Reading the article linked above, especially that quoted section just made me wonder if I had gone about this backwards? And what would be the best recommendation for someone to start to feel out the tyre squirm & slide area of traction? At slower speed mid-corner? Or higher speed at corner exit?

[faffi]

For me, the scariest moment is just before or exactly when I reach maximum lean, that's when the tyres will slip for me if they do. Usually I end up with a lot more lean, unwanted that is, like having a rug pulled under me. Once I have established that grip is sufficient, I have no issues. And on public roads, it is hard to determine just how much grip you have from one corner to the next for various reasons. I also feel that current tyres are much more sensitive to changes in asphalt and temperatures than what I remember from 20-30 years ago.

 

Perhaps the way I rode also played a role; I used to brake deep, and that deep braking also gave me information about grip, meaning I could adjust a) my tip in speed (brake longer or shorter), my tip-in point and my tip-in rate according to the sensations I received from the front tyre during braking. I do not think I was consciously aware of what I did, but it did affect my approach.

[YellowDuck]

I am reading TOTW2 now and it is reinforcing a lot of what you folks have been explaining here. Thanks also to the member giving me more help via PM. It's much appreciated.

 

I am through the section on throttle control and am wondering about how I will like the Throttle Rule in practice. I definitely buy the 60/40 idea and the argument that the "rolling off SR" stands a good chance of having the opposite of the intended effect (i.e., making the bike run wider, and also reducing traction). I have felt that in the real world already, so it's easy to accept. I guess the real challenge, as others have stated above, is knowing when "as soon as possible" is. The conversation above and material in the book about how turning and cornering reduce speed have also been helpful.

 

I feel like if I can just complete several sessions with no tension in my arms and *never* rolling off in a corner, then I will have made good progress. I was actually getting there on my own (i.e., I was already concentrating on, especially, staying loose), but reading the book and chatting with you folks has helped ingrain the importance of these points. The other big thing will be to make one, early steering input - but I expect that to be harder.

 

I am also getting my head around the traction limits of the tires, and how far away I am from those currently. I expect my "lean faith" will be greatly improved next time out.

[Cobie Fair]

Hey YD,

 

Did you get an answer on when to roll the throttle on, what is the rule of thumb on that?

 

Best,

CF

[YellowDuck]

Hey YD,

 

Did you get an answer on when to roll the throttle on, what is the rule of thumb on that?

 

Best,

CF

 

 

It's not clear to me yet. It kind of seems like the goal is to start rolling on as soon as the steering input is completed. I need to actually be on the bike to see how that works (or doesn't). As I understand the logic, cracking the throttle and then rolling on to maintain 60/40 will not cause anything untoward to happen, if the steering input was adequate to achieve the correct line in the first place.

 

So, the obvious question...I am in the corner, throttle rolling on, and suddenly I don't believe my line is going to let me make the exit. Then what? The natural SR is to roll off, but as I understand it that is going to stand the bike up and also create a weight transfer that will reduce traction. But adding throttle and lean angle at the same time is deadly. So.....?

[mugget]

YellowDuck, that seems like a common question... thinking back on my own experiences, believing that the throttle should be opened as soon as the steering input is complete may be why I had always been riding through an entire corner on the throttle! Literally opening the throttle as soon as my steering input was done. But that is really the slow way around, especially if you're using an early turn point (or just not using a late turn point), and as you say it presents a problem if you're running wide... turning is not really an option if you're on the throttle, and closing the throttle won't help the situation either. It's not really true to say that the throttle opening should happen immediately after the steering input. I think that's where much confusion comes from - the real understanding of just what "as soon as possible means".

 

A question: does Twist II actually say anything about opening the throttle as soon as your steering input is made? In the case of opening the throttle, what is really meant by "as soon as possible"?

 

Have a think about that, see what you can find. Once you've mulled it over it, I think that my post here will be very helpful: http://forums.superbikeschool.com/index.php?showtopic=3438&view=findpost&p=28083

[Hotfoot]

 

 

So, the obvious question...I am in the corner, throttle rolling on, and suddenly I don't believe my line is going to let me make the exit. Then what? The natural SR is to roll off, but as I understand it that is going to stand the bike up and also create a weight transfer that will reduce traction. But adding throttle and lean angle at the same time is deadly. So.....?

 

If your line will not allow you to make the exit, you've blown the corner. You just have to regroup and get through it - which would typically mean stand the bike up, slow down (possibly braking hard), and then turn the bike again. You can slow the bike down a lot in a short distance. Getting the bike upright will allow it to handle the weight transfer to the front.

 

As you get farther into Twist II (which I know you just recently acquired) you will find lots of great info about steering and lines that will give you a lot more tools to avoid getting INTO that situation.

[Lnewqban]

.........The natural SR is to roll off, but as I understand it that is going to stand the bike up and also create a weight transfer that will reduce traction........

Rolling the throttle off doesn't reduce traction of the front tire, but increases the load on it.

Exactly the opposite occurs with the rear tire during roll-off.

 

The only way to reduce traction is by reducing the force that is perpendicular to the road (normal force).

The transfer of weight onto the front tire increases that normal force, but also the lateral force.

The ratio of increment of the lateral respect to the normal force is higher for bigger angles of lean.

Skid will happen only when the magnitude of that lateral force exceeds the maximum allowable value (red circle in previous schematic).

 

"Once the throttle is cracked on, it is rolled on evenly, smoothly, and constantly throughout the remainder of the turn." K. Code

 

Regarding the effect of the roll-on:

According to the book, the proper acceleration rate is 0.1 to 0.2 G.

That means that for every second on the turn, the speed of the bike should increase 2.2 to 4.4 mph.

That rule applies independently from the entry speed.

 

Max lean angle will correspond with max speed; hence, your entry speed should be less to accommodate the gain in speed along the curve.

The fastest you go, the quicker you will be done with the curve, and the difference between entry and final speed will be less.

The opposite applies for slower trajectories.

[YellowDuck]

Okay, track day Thursday, on my regular track. My best lap to date there is 1:33. Will report back how it goes.

 

Between this thread and Twist II, I have got a sort of loose list in my head of things to work on:

 

i) setting body position early (I think I already do that pretty well) and griping a bit better with my outside knee and both feet.

ii) staying loose at the bars

iii) rolling on throughout the rest of the corner once the throttle is cracked open

iv) one single, quick steering input (that's where I have the most work to do) and

v) sighting my turn points and apices early (two-step).

 

I won't try to keep all of that in my head at one time of course because that seems like a good way to mess up a golf swing, but I'll work on certain things in each session.

 

No real target in mind other than beating 1:33, which I expect I will do easily if there is any clear track available in intermediate.

[warregl]

I won't try to keep all of that in my head at one time of course because that seems like a good way to mess up a golf swing, but I'll work on certain things in each session.

 

No real target in mind other than beating 1:33, which I expect I will do easily if there is any clear track available in intermediate.

 

 

The CSS coaches have you pick one thing to work on in a session. If you get it nailed down you move on to the next one. If it helps the order CSS teaches the skills you mentioned is:

 

Throttle control

Quick turn

Rider input (loose on the handle bars)

Two step

Body position (setting up early)

 

Good luck and let us know how it goes!

[YellowDuck]

I won't try to keep all of that in my head at one time of course because that seems like a good way to mess up a golf swing, but I'll work on certain things in each session.

 

No real target in mind other than beating 1:33, which I expect I will do easily if there is any clear track available in intermediate.

 

 

The CSS coaches have you pick one thing to work on in a session. If you get it nailed down you move on to the next one. If it helps the order CSS teaches the skills you mentioned is:

 

Throttle control

Quick turn

Rider input (loose on the handle bars)

Two step

Body position (setting up early)

 

Good luck and let us know how it goes!

 

 

It was actually a very successful day. I was worried because I was a bit sleep deprived (insomnia the last few nights) and so wasn't feeling my best.

 

I didn't time laps on my first session - just worked a bit on body position and generally getting the cobwebs out, since I hadn.t been track since May.

 

After that, I really concentrated on the "throttle rule" (rolling on the throttle slowly but constantly, once cracked open, to maintain slight acceleration). I got reasonably good at this. Of course I could almost always have opened it up earlier, but the important thing is that I was basically never doing the SR roll off thing - maybe twice during the whole day, and even then only very mildly.

 

I also worked hard on setting my line through each corner with one, quick steering input. This was easily the biggest change I made to my riding, and it really really helped. I was carrying significantly more lean angle comfortably. I actually accidentally got my knee down three or four times, which sort of startled me the first time. It will take a while to get used to that, and in fact for the later sessions I just kept my knee tucked in a bit more because the touching down was distracting. I know I am supposed to use it as a "lean angle gauge" but I had other stuff to do and it was freaking me out.

 

I was surprised how much energy it takes to quick steer the bike! I didn't try "pivot steering" at all but maybe I should next time. Anyway, I really like the feeling of flopping it over fairly hard - makes all the difference in the world. Just a lot more precise.

 

In terms of lap times I easily beat my past best. Previously, 1:33.1 was my best. Second session yesterday I had already done a 1:31.3. Session after that I was down to 1:30.0 best, and 1:31s and 1:32s were easy when I had clear track. Unfortunately the afternoon got a bit rainy - not enough that I couldn't go out even on slicks, but enough to make it just slightly greasy and spooky - rear end was stepping out a bit coming out of slow corners. So, I quit early - not too disappointing since I had already accomplished my goals for the day (-3.1 s!). Although, if it had stayed dry I definitely would have tried to break into the 1:29s. For reference, the lap record on my class of bike (BOTT lightweight) is 1:17.something.

 

So, my "lean faith" has definitely increased. Obviously, now I need to get comfortable with my knee on the tarmac. I am also not happy with my body position - just not locked into the tank well enough, so my inside arm is doing too much work keeping me on the bike.

 

My tires were getting hotter than ever before - the edges of the rear felt quite "gummy" to the touch. Not sure it that is a good thing, or if maybe I was overheating it a little and need to up the pressure some.

 

Can't wait for the next outing to try to advance a bit more. Thanks everyone for your help!

[Lnewqban]

.........

After that, I really concentrated on the "throttle rule" (rolling on the throttle slowly but constantly, once cracked open, to maintain slight acceleration). I got reasonably good at this. Of course I could almost always have opened it up earlier, but the important thing is that I was basically never doing the SR roll off thing - maybe twice during the whole day, and even then only very mildly.

..........

So, my "lean faith" has definitely increased.

...........

Can't wait for the next outing to try to advance a bit more. Thanks everyone for your help!

We have been waiting for this positive report.

 

Very well done!

[Hotfoot]

What a terrific success!! Thanks for posting that and I'm REALLY glad to hear you got so much improvement in just a few sessions!

[mugget]

Great stuff, YellowDuck!

 

My tires were getting hotter than ever before - the edges of the rear felt quite "gummy" to the touch. Not sure it that is a good thing, or if maybe I was overheating it a little and need to up the pressure some.

 

 

Sounds like the tyres are working just fine, a sports/track-oriented tire definitely needs to be worked harder to get up to the proper operating temperature, but then they are awesome. Many people describe them as "sticking like poop to a blanket". Which is just what that gummy/sticky feel helps to achieve. As long as the tyres felt good while you were riding, I wouldn't worry about it!

 

[YellowDuck]

Thanks fellas. I had a lot of time between track days and so had done a lot of reading and thinking about what I was going to try to do this time - very prepared, mentally, with a short list of things to pay attention to.

 

Will let you know how I progress with the next outing.

 

 

 

 

[YellowDuck]

Update: Another track day at TMP yesterday - perfect conditions, with not one yellow flag....we just kept going and going. I am exhausted today (legs).

 

My best lap last time was a 1:30.0. Yesterday my only goal was to better that. I managed 1:28.4, but I think that one lap was a bit of a fluke, since my next best was a 1:29.2. Still, not a bad improvement and, most importantly, I really "solidified my gains"; 1:29.x's were happening all the time and nothing was ever above 1:31.0 if I had clear track. So, getting quite consistent!

 

I didn't really consciously work on anything new (in terms of the CSS exercises), but did find that I was consistently very relaxed at the bars and through my arms and shoulders. The lean angles don't spook me anymore, so I am not tensing up at all really. With my new found skills getting fairly ingrained I was able to experiment more with different lines and even gear selection. I ramped up entry speed to a few corners substantially, and also improved my body position I think. I am really feeling the bike settle in solidly on its suspension in each corner, which is a great feeling. Also, accelerating out of some corners as the suspension decompresses has led to a few "still leaned over" power wheelies in second gear and even third (!). Kinda cool.

 

So, all in all quite successful, and the best part is that I can easily see where the next gains will come from - there are several corners where I am now not using anything like all the room on exit, so it should just be a matter of dialing up the entry speeds and/or getting on the throttle sooner on the exit. What I like most about this is that I am realizing these improvements without ever scaring myself or feeing like I am in over my head. Yes, screwing up my courage to fly into a corner with more entry speed than ever before was a bit "exciting", but by the apex I always knew I was going to make it so there were never any "oh sh*t" moments.

 

 

 

 

 

 

[mugget]

Great work YellowDuck! Also glad to hear that you're staying relaxed and not feeling that you need to push beyond your limits to make those improvements. So many people say that you need to "be brave" or have "big balls" to go really fast, but I don't agree with that at all. Once you understand exactly what you're doing and how your inputs will affect the outcome, you can methodically work at improvements without risking anything and without riding over your limit. Don't get me wrong, it's still exciting to tip into a corner trying your best quick steer at over 200km/h, but like you say there's no "oh sh*t" moment, you know you're going to make it - and that is the way to be. Nice report.

[Lnewqban]

.............I didn't really consciously work on anything new (in terms of the CSS exercises), but did find that I was consistently very relaxed at the bars and through my arms and shoulders. The lean angles don't spook me anymore, so I am not tensing up at all really...........

That is a better measurement of your progress than reduced times,...........and much more useful in street riding.

As discussed at the beginning of this thread, there was never a need to fall.

[Bullet]

well done, and you started off such a doubter.

 

 

 

Bullet

[KnifeySpoony]

I know this is late, but I thought I'd give my opinion. Riding a motorcycle is different than learning another skill like golfing or typing. Riding a motorcycle fast involves dealing with fear. At some point, to progress (e.g. lean more, carry higher entry speed etc...) you have to push through your fears. To sum up my advice on learning to lean more...

 

Look

Lean

BELIEVE

 

Do it in small increments and you will be shocked what a motorcycle can do. Oh and don't forget sticky tires.

[YellowDuck]

I know this is late, but I thought I'd give my opinion. Riding a motorcycle is different than learning another skill like golfing or typing. Riding a motorcycle fast involves dealing with fear. At some point, to progress (e.g. lean more, carry higher entry speed etc...) you have to push through your fears. To sum up my advice on learning to lean more...

 

Look

Lean

BELIEVE

 

Do it in small increments and you will be shocked what a motorcycle can do. Oh and don't forget sticky tires.

 

 

Thanks KS, and welcome to the forum!

 

I found it a lot easier to "believe" once I learned to relax. Relaxing the upper body, in my case, seemed to relax the mind as well. I guess to relax your grip on the bars you first have to trust the bike to do the right thing on its own, which is the first step to getting the confidence to take more lean angle, if that makes sense. Worked for me anyway!

[YellowDuck]

To update this thread....

 

Another track day - probably the last of the season - coming up this Thursday at my regular track. So, we will see where my times are. I am hoping to get regularly into the 1:28's this time, perhaps with a few 1:27's in there. Consistent 1:25's would have me to where I could reasonably run in Red (advanced) group, so maybe that will happen next season. Not that that is a goal of mine necessarily, but it would be kind of a benchmark of progress, and not bad for a 44-year old on a 90-hp bike who never hit the track until last year!

 

I have also added a slipper clutch in the mean time. There are three corners at TMP where I am wasting brain power and time letting the clutch out slowly on downshifts in order to control the rear wheel (remember, 1000-cc V-twin). Hopefully the slipper helps relieve me of that inconvenience. On the other hand, the new clutch is totally untested (track-only bike!), so maybe it will not work at all and ruin my day! My mechanical skills are somewhat mediocre, although so far they haven't got me into any real trouble.