cbr600kid Posted February 26, 2013 Report Share Posted February 26, 2013 I am considering taking the class in virginia (surprisingly no options in the midwest). I was interested in the 2 day class but noticed that there are one day classes also available prior to the 2 day class. If i took the one day class back to back i would save a lot of money vs taking the 2 day class. Can someone explain the difference in class content and why such a disparity in cost? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
anthem Posted February 26, 2013 Report Share Posted February 26, 2013 I am considering taking the class in virginia (surprisingly no options in the midwest). I was interested in the 2 day class but noticed that there are one day classes also available prior to the 2 day class. If i took the one day class back to back i would save a lot of money vs taking the 2 day class. Can someone explain the difference in class content and why such a disparity in cost? Well depends on where you are from as to which location is easiest. I actually like to travel various areas to try new tracks/courses with CSS. It's exciting, fun, and riding a new track and learn with great instructors - even better. Do a search on the forums. The single day classes are 3 riders to each instructor and every third session (20min track, 20 min class, 20 min off). - on the two day there is no break its 2riders per instructor and its 20 min track, debrief and 20 min class - then back on the track. Rapid fire. It's like 7 track sessions per day on the 2 days. It's 5 track sessions on the single day. Single day sessions you can ride your own bike or rent theirs. On two day classes the bike rental is included (you have to ride the awesome s1000rr that they supply) - because you have no time between sessions to work on your bike (like refueling). It's taken care of for you. Any problems, super mechanic Will repairs it or replaces it with another bike. Two days include all equipment rental as well. So big differences. I think the best way for me to sum it up - single day is like an instructional track day with CSS. Run tight, well and a good learning experience. Two days are like "camp". Total immersion- no free time. You are in it completely. While finances play a part in everything most people say if you can afford the two day - you would go for it. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Cobie Fair Posted February 27, 2013 Report Share Posted February 27, 2013 Anthem, extremely well answered on the difference! The 2-day tends to spoil one. The single day schools are very solid though, and if riding one's own, brings the cost right down. Let us know if any other questions. One thing to add: the time one can spend on the training bikes is more if so desired, and it's the only place we run the Video and Brake Bikes are part of the package (other training bikes are there too). Best, Cobie Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ScrmnDuc Posted February 27, 2013 Report Share Posted February 27, 2013 crb600kid, I had the opportunity last June at Barbers to observe the "camp" after taking 2 normal class days proir to the camp. The atmosphere during the camp was much more relaxed than the normal class days. The training is much more personal with each student. Either Cobie or Dylan ( sorry guys I don't remember which one of you said this to me) " CSS camps are almost semi private events." Cost vs reality: Yes the camp cost more. You will get more from a camp. You may even have access to offtrack bikes that are not availble during regular class days. 30% less students which means more time with your coach during and after each session. 30% less students means the price goes up at least 30% if not more. The track, CSS staff and medics all cost the same reguardless of how many students there are attending. If you can do the camp I would recommend taking that path. But you may want to take a regular class day or two proir to taking the camp. It won't cost as much and when you take one or more camps you will already have a very good feel of how the CSS training flows. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
tmckeen Posted February 27, 2013 Report Share Posted February 27, 2013 Just to add to the information already posted up , on a per session basis the Cost difference isn't quite as vast as it appears, to Rent the schools bike for 2 days at VIR will cost you 135$ a session for 10 sessions, toss in gear rental and it bumps up to 150 a session, the two day camp costs 175 a session for 14 sessions. At worst its a 29% price increase for a 40% increase in track time, One additional thing I don't think anyone mentioned, the extra 4 track sessions are custom tailored instruction, at a one day camp you will do 5 drills over 5 sessions, at a two day you will do the same 5 drils in the same 5 session, and then have 2 extra ones to work on whatever you and your coach decide to spend the time on. Tyler Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
cbr600kid Posted February 27, 2013 Author Report Share Posted February 27, 2013 Thanks for all of the information. It sounds like 2 day camp is worth it. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Cobie Fair Posted February 27, 2013 Report Share Posted February 27, 2013 It has been our most popular school (and the same basic format) since it was introduced! Back in the begining stages, there was a long classroom, and then the addition training was done via the video review, usually 2x a day. But, we didn't have the on-track coaching at the current level, or all the off-track training aids either. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
cbr600kid Posted February 27, 2013 Author Report Share Posted February 27, 2013 I have another question. It looks like there is a deposit required for equipment damage. Are the bikes and equipment insured? Is there an option to buy insurance? God forbid i wreck, but would hate to have to pay for a new bmw. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
csmith12 Posted February 27, 2013 Report Share Posted February 27, 2013 ^^^ this, I have the same question. I wanna do a 2day but use my own bike with the option of renting in case of a failure by the bike or riders. lol Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Hotfoot Posted February 27, 2013 Report Share Posted February 27, 2013 I have another question. It looks like there is a deposit required for equipment damage. Are the bikes and equipment insured? Is there an option to buy insurance? God forbid i wreck, but would hate to have to pay for a new bmw. The required crash deposit on the bike is $1,250. There is no option to buy insurance BUT the maximum amount the school would charge you in the event of a crash is $1,250. There is also a deposit on rented gear - leathers and helmet - of $200, and that is also the max that would be charged. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Hotfoot Posted February 27, 2013 Report Share Posted February 27, 2013 ^^^ this, I have the same question. I wanna do a 2day but use my own bike with the option of renting in case of a failure by the bike or riders. lol For a 2 day camp you have to use a school bike; if you want to ride your own bike you'd have to sign up for 2 single day camps. One thing that I always find comforting is that CSS does have a fantastic mechanic on site at the schools, if you have a bike problem on the day of a school he can often help you get back up and running. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
anthem Posted February 28, 2013 Report Share Posted February 28, 2013 ^^^ this, I have the same question. I wanna do a 2day but use my own bike with the option of renting in case of a failure by the bike or riders. lol Not possible and you don't want to either. . . especially the first time you take the 2 day camp. There is no time for you to handle anything between sessions. As I posted above - here is the schedule 20 minute class 20 minute track session 5 min debrief 20 minute class 20 minute track session 5 min debrief 20 min class 20 minute track session 5minute debrief etc etc etc No time at all for you to handle any issues or to even worry about refueling. You would be holding back your own track time or missing class or something which would be unacceptable to the instructors. . . So as you can see, its very very difficult for you to be riding your own bike on the 2 day camps and I'm fairly certain they wouldn't allow it (but I can't speak for them). Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
csmith12 Posted February 28, 2013 Report Share Posted February 28, 2013 Ummmm no.... if time is allotted to go the rest room, personal phone calls, smokers... ect... there is time to put gas in, check pressure and so on. CSS is not the military, lets be realistic here. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
csmith12 Posted February 28, 2013 Report Share Posted February 28, 2013 If that is the way it is, then say so. Call a spade a spade. I have no problem with that. For me, a $1250 cash money deposit 99.% of the time, takes me out of the running for doing a 2 day event. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
aslcbr600 Posted February 28, 2013 Report Share Posted February 28, 2013 If that is the way it is, then say so. Call a spade a spade. I have no problem with that. For me, a $1250 cash money deposit 99.% of the time, takes me out of the running for doing a 2 day event. Yup same for me as well, this is what happened to me last time I was supposed to do the 2day school back in November of last year. Had the 2days covered but the cost to rent the BMW for the deposit 1250.00+400.00 (plane ticket)+120.00 (car rental)+130.00 (hotel stay) made for another 1800.00 roughly give or take some with the already cost of the camp. I know it costs to play but man were talking 4k for 2days, granted you get the 1250.00 back if you don't crash or break something but you still have to have it on hand in the first place. This is just a question, if say you brought a track prepped bike that would pass tech inspection if they are refueling the bikes why can't they just refuel yours? Pop the cap and fill it, it's not like the S1000 uses special blended octane that no other bike can use. If your bike breaks down then it's on you, a chance you take for not paying to rent the BMW. It sounds like I am not the only one in this boat, would this be something the school would consider? I understand having the deposit for the BMW bikes but the reasons I am seeing to have to rent the bike doesn't seem like using your own would be a total breach of time. I am sure some of us would rather use our own bikes in the first place especially more so at the 2day camp because you are paying more so you expect more results. Granted all skills applied to each bike change very little but comfort and confidence play a much bigger role, I am 100% more likely to learn more on my track bike because it's specifically sprung for me, it's what I am comfortable with and I don't have to worry about dumping a 1250.00 deposit if something were to unfortunately happen. Not saying on my personal bike I would out ride my limits but I think I would certainly learn a little more on a bike that is confidence inspiring to me. Just seems a little odd that a person pays more for a "private lesson" but is forced to rent a bike. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
csmith12 Posted February 28, 2013 Report Share Posted February 28, 2013 I can tell you first hand... I hold back while riding another's bike at the track. Not sure how that would effect the skills part of the course though. Has that been an issue before? Maybe it's for the good. For example, I ride in the A group but when handed over the control rider's RC8, I go out with intermediate. For no other reason than I don't wanna bin it. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
anthem Posted February 28, 2013 Report Share Posted February 28, 2013 I think you guys are over thinking this. They do this because the 2 day is a much more intensive class than the 1 days. They don't want to bother with bikes down, bikes being fueled, you worrying about bikes/etc. Its just not worth it when they haven't allocated time for it. The regimen for the 2 day is laid out pretty tight and that's the way they like to run it. Yeah, you may have time to refuel your bike and such, but you'd be scrambling. But it boils down to this - they are allowing you to use your own bike. Do the 1 days where there is time for it. You can park by your trailer, do what you need to do, go to class, mount your bike and go ride. It's the perfect structure for it. WIth the 2 day it just doesn't make sense and especially if its your first time at a 2 day. That being said they have made some very rare exceptions for your own supplied bike in two days but thats for level IV+. If you've never been, I believe you have no chance of them allowing you to ride your own bike on the 2 day. You don't know the schedule, structure and format and you want to throw your bike into the mix. Seriously - its not worth it if you've never been. In regards to the $1250 - personally I think its a steal. You wreck the bike and you're MAX Cap is $1250 on a 16K bike. . . If you don't wreck it - you get it back. There are MANY who do this intentionally even on the 1 days because they want to ride the S1000RR on a track with the maximum liability being 1250 if you wreck it. If you wrecked your own bike, it almost definitely would exceed $1250 cost , so not sure why people are alarmed over that. And finally - they never tell you to ride flat out. It's not a race and its not to push you beyond your limits. You're almost always riding at 75%-85% of your skill level is where they ask you to be. You're working on skills and drills here. If you're not holding back on your own bike or their bike and at max - I doubt the class is for you, but thats for them to decide. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Alfred.Rodriguez Posted February 28, 2013 Report Share Posted February 28, 2013 Personally, I felt more at ease (relaxed) when riding CSS' bikes... Basically, Id rather drop a rental bike than mine, even if the repair cost is the same! I never would like to hurt my lady... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
csmith12 Posted February 28, 2013 Report Share Posted February 28, 2013 It's cool, I am not trying to be or sound argumentative or anything, nor do I feel any inhibition about attending a 1 vs 2 day event weather it be a student owned bike or CSS bike. It's a pure financial thing for me and wish the option was there ya know. I am still eager to find a way to attend a 2 day camp. I was chatting with a friend about attending and being able to afford it and he said "one pop can at a time". hahahahahahah Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Hotfoot Posted February 28, 2013 Report Share Posted February 28, 2013 Ummmm no.... if time is allotted to go the rest room, personal phone calls, smokers... ect... there is time to put gas in, check pressure and so on. CSS is not the military, lets be realistic here. If you have an expectation of having time for personal phone calls, taking smoke breaks, etc., you would be much happier at single day schools. I am a coach at the school, and I can tell you, in a 2 day camp you do go directly from track, to a short debrief with your coach, then right to class, and everything is situated to where even the walking distance from one to the other is as small as possible. Really the only break you have is at lunch. It is correct that for 2 day camps you must ride the BMW. It does save considerable time not allowing personal bikes - for one thing, it completely eliminates tech inspection, which takes more than an hour in the morning and requires 2-3 staff (usually coaches) to run. At tech inspection all personal bikes are checked, tire pressure is set, and many bikes need lights taped, etc.; some people prep their bikes but many do not. With school bikes everything is prepped prior to the school. I can tell you from personal experience it definitely does take riders with their own bikes longer to get where they need to be - they need to park farther away, and there is a fair amount of fussing with the bike that happens for whatever reason. An experienced track day rider might be able to manage being prompt even using their own bike - but that's assuming they have a kickstand and aren't trying to fool with stands and tire warmers, aren't planning to park at their own pit where their trailer is, and can run at LEAST 3-4 sessions without refueling. For a Level 4 student it could be possible as the classroom sessions are shorter; as anthem said maybe for a L4 multi-time student they would consider it, not sure. Having CSS staff refueling student personal bikes is not very practical; people are particular about what fuel they use, handling and fueling the bikes incurs liability, knowing which bikes need fuel and when is challenging, the amount of fuel required in a day would become a variable, etc. CSS refuels school bikes by riding each bike over to a fuel station on the transport truck and filling from a pump on the truck, so it's not like someone is just carrying around a fuel jug. They have it down to a science with the school bikes, know exactly how much fuel is needed, and it is very, very quick. In any case, most students that attend the 2 day camp come from far enough away that renting a bike is a better option anyway - we get students from Europe, South America, Japan, Taiwan, Canada... everywhere, really... and it is VERY common in CA or Las Vegas to have students that came from the East Coast. I think the 2 day camps always sell out, and I know many of them sell out way in advance. The 2 day camps cost more to attend because they cost more to run. There are far less students but just as many staff so the price per person has to go up to make it work. I'm sure there are probably other financial reasons for not allowing personal bikes, too - the fleet of BMWs has to be acquired, maintained, and transported to each track, so I imagine having bikes go unrented (which is what you would have to do if you let people ride their own bikes in a 2 day camp, since the number of riders is limited) would be a financial burden for the school, and BMW might not like that either, since the more people try the S1000rr, the more people buy them! If you want to ride your own bike, and/or keep the cost down, come to two single day schools! I was a many-time student before I became a coach, and I did both - I loved 2 day camps because I could just show up and ride (a great way to go to a new track in another part of the country) but I also rode some single day schools so I could ride my own bike, and that saves a lot of money, plus you do have more time in a 1 day school to meet and chat with other riders, or just take breaks. It's good fun either way, I'm sure you'll have a blast whatever you choose to do. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jamie01 Posted February 28, 2013 Report Share Posted February 28, 2013 Even with the security deposit I think I'd be nervous on an unfamiliar bike, especially one as beautiful as an S1000RR. I'm sure the plastics on one side of that bike cost more to replace than my bike is worth. If I'm going to toss a bike down the track I want it to be mine. I'm doing a single day in May with my own bike, and I can easily imagine that I'll leave with a taste for more. But I'd still have to figure out how to pay for 2-day camp. I guess I can stop contributing to my kids' college funds for a few months (j.k) Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
csmith12 Posted February 28, 2013 Report Share Posted February 28, 2013 I feel where you are coming from Jamie. I love my bikes yes.... but not for what they are but instead for what they allow me to do. It's a machine and doesn't mind if it's ugly to make it through the day. lol Thanks for the clarifications Hotfoot, I understand. It does sound like the single day is more my style. The only other thing that would change my mind completely about the costing would be access to the specialty bikes (lean, slide and braking). Are access to those different based on the days. I already know that a lvl 1 rider doesn't have access to the slide bike until higher lvl 2 or 3 and not available at all tracks and weather conditions. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Pepsi Drinker Posted February 28, 2013 Report Share Posted February 28, 2013 I signed up for the 2 back to back 1 day camps at VIR solely based on my personal available funds. If I had more available funds I definately would have done the 2 day camp and used the schools bike and gotten the more track time and more available specialty bikes etc, although I still would have brought my own for some riding in the area after or before the school dates. It is always nice to ride new or different areas of the country IMO. Considering school crash rates have dropped significantly since going to the S1000RR and its electronics package, I would say many may well be far better off on the schools bike than their own. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
cbr600kid Posted February 28, 2013 Author Report Share Posted February 28, 2013 I just signed up for the 2 day class in Virginia. I am chalking the $2450 up as an investment in my safety (learning to be a better rider). I know mid-August is a long time from now, but is there anything I should do to prepare for the class, in terms of riding? How often does someone wreck in the class? I remember someone wrecking in my basic rider course and being shocked. The instructor laughed and said it happens in every class. Does anyone have any recommendations on a hotel near the track in Virginia? I would like the opportunity to ride the slide and the lean bike. Does everyone in the class do this or do you have to pre-arrange it? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Cobie Fair Posted February 28, 2013 Report Share Posted February 28, 2013 Hi All, This has been gone over pretty thoroughly, but a few things to clear up 1. One doesn't have to put a deposit on the bikes, or the gear. A card imprint is taken IN CASE THERE IS DAMAGE. Nothing is charged, unless it is damaged. Charges are only for parts used. If you fall over and it dings a fairing and some levers and it's $350, that is all you are charged (no cost for mechanic time, and parts are substantiially below retail). Incidents at 2-day campes are pretty rare, often none at all. 2. The format for the 2-day schools has worked very well (and we have gotten requests to pay full rate and use one's own bike). What we have found is that with everyone on the same bike (and rotating to the camera bike) we get the maximum benefit from the trainng. There is no "adjustment period" when riding the video bike. There is no thinking in the back of your mind, "Well, the coach is on a different bike/tires than mine, so its different." 3. This question has been posed and discused all the way up to Keith and he's pointed out the success of the format, and we have stuck with it. Hope that clears this up a little, fire away if not! . Best, Cobie Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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