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Hayabusa On The Track

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I love my 2011 Busa and I've tried really hard to work around all the negatives regarding the bike as a dragster only.

 

I'm modding her with a better race seat, bigger rear sprocket so it digs a little better, maybe more hp, and possibly lighter wheels, maybe lowering it, and with some aesthetic stuff thrown in as well.

 

I think these two statements are at odds with each other, lowering the bike is a dragster only kind of modification, which at best will reduce your cornering clearance and at worst most likely totally screw up your steering geometry. You already have 181 HP, which is more than you can use, adding more, and lowering the gearing, will only help your straight line performance, and unless you plan on hitting up the Salt Flats sometime soon having a 200 mph+ bike isn't going to do anything for you in the twisties. All the HP in the world won't help you when some 13 year old kid whizzes past you in the bowl on a 125.

 

I would stick to things that make it lighter and improve its handling, not make it more likely to dump you on your head, but I would also strongly recommend waiting till you've actually turned a few laps on the track before you do anything. There's plenty of guys who have bikes that are built well beyond their ability to ride them, this weekend at Fontana there were plenty of guys in the slow group running full on slicks and tire warmers with trick suspension and modded up engines, sure they're quick down the straights but a skilled rider can turn a much faster lap on a bone stock 250 with street tires, If those guys had spent half as much on rider training as they had on trick parts they would probably be in the fast group instead of the slow one.

 

Tyler

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For medical reasons its all a moot point. I'm pulled from School. Now that I can't run down some ot the litre bikes (including the RR) with my 235hp Busa I don't know if I still want a litre bike anymore. I hope I get at least to volunteer on the track on the 26th but thats up to the powers that be. Again, thanks so much for bearing with me through my thought process. Nic

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For medical reasons its all a moot point. I'm pulled from School. Now that I can't run down some ot the litre bikes (including the RR) with my 235hp Busa I don't know if I still want a litre bike anymore. I hope I get at least to volunteer on the track on the 26th but thats up to the powers that be. Again, thanks so much for bearing with me through my thought process. Nic

Wow, does that comment not make sense. I think the main point was me feeling sorry for myself. Apologies

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After considering all the well meaning advice I'm still going to keep my eye out for a nice late model Gsxr for a while and continue to tweak away on my Busa. If I get enough money into it I'll keep it next to forever. I know there are guys who can make a Busa practically talk. It is probably my best all round bike because I do like to drag, do the twisties, tour, and customize, and eventually get on the track. I will never have two bikes. I'm feel very fortunate to have one good one. I know the bike fairly well because I keep up with Hayabusa.org and ask lots of questions with anyone who will listen, advise, criticize and help. Theres a Busa expert in my area who is really into Turbos. I put thirteen thousand miles on it in a matter of six months or so. A lot of that was in the winter hear in the Northeast US. No mean feat.

My ideal plan would be to lighten up the wheels, go to 215hp on the motor and maybe go Turbo next year. Oh yeah, make it pretty as possible. Its a process. I'm learning and I guarantee I'll have a better bike in six months and in six years. One certainly nice thing about building a bike is that you don't have to adhere to anyone else's rules. Sorry I haven't answered some of your response questions just yet because I am pretty bummed about not being able to go to School and I want to deal with my disappointment in a different way right now. I'll get over it and I'm sure I can handle all your observations at a later date. Thanks again.

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Pity about your medical condition, hope it turns out well for you.

 

The extra power will make it less suitable for track (and twisitie) duty, the turbo will just about ruin it for anything than straight aiming. But it's your bike and you'll do what you think best.

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I've hear of turbos on the track. How much power to weight do you think the GP1 bikes have?

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Erik, I know you must be a good rider but don't under estimate me please. I've been studying Keith's work like a guy in a PhD program. No offense intended...OK?

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There is a huge difference between "knowing" and "doing". . . I know a lot of things in certain areas but that doesn't necessarily mean I can execute it. . . I don't think anyone is underestimating anyone. People are giving their opinions and that is it. .

 

If you want to be a better rider - go attend the schools. The schools teachings are irrespective of type of bike you own. Nothing wrong with going to be a better rider and going back to riding whatever it is you own (Hayabusa, Harley's, superbikes or mopeds).

 

If you want to build the best drag bike you can - go for it. If you want to build the best track bike you can - go for it. But I think what others are trying to tell you is that those two don't really intersect that much. There are a lot of great bikes out there but that doesn't mean they are great for the track. Just like a lot of great track bikes out there aren't great for much else either.

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From what I'm reading it seems to me you want to make your Hayabusa into a "hot rod". Nothing wrong with that at all if that's your desire. From what I see in my area, I simply assumed a Hayabusa must be lowered, stretched, and "bling-ed" out. However, I think the other posts noting this will make the bike less racetrack friendly are spot on. It doesn't mean you couldn't take it to the track but it will be less than optimal.

 

As regards extra power, particularly on a bike already sporting 150+ HP, I don't know what a turbo will do but it probably won't be especially useful at the track for most of us mortals. It'll probably sound cool and work wonders at the drag strip however. Also, from what I've seen, turbo kits (and the necessary/associated hardware) are pretty expensive. You probably could buy a modest second-hand track bike for the cost of the turbo alone.

 

A sort-of related story about excess power: our local pro racer decided to try a new ZX-10 this year, and this after a decade or two of racing 600's (mostly ZX-6's). He says he loves the ZX-10 but he's noticeably slower. Despite running slower lap times, he's determined to stick with it this season. He often remarks the bike simply is so powerful it nearly always hovers at the edge of being uncontrollable (I'm paraphrasing, but that's the gist). When I hear such comments from a pro, I am totally convinced I have no business riding anything with more power than a 600 (mine makes about 120-ish HP), and I could probably do just fine with a step down to a 650 twin.

 

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Honestly - I think CSS would be happier training on 250 or 600cc bikes. But the S1000rr is just so much "sexier" and "desirable" for potential track attendees so it makes sense. .. But as students, everyone would be better off on 600cc bikes in school. . .

 

And HP isn't everything. They are training a 16yo kid on a 250cc that is faster than 99.9 percent (yeah 1 out of 1000) of people on liter bikes. He'll run circles around you even if you had a turbo that could add 100hp onto your hayabusa. . .

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So glad you are all looking out for me. No lie and I hear you. Nic

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Its true. The best way to describe my design is a hot rod or custom bike. Its going to be awesome and I'm not 100 percent sure on the turbo but I'm told it can be done. I wonder why anyone wont acknowledge the power to weight of a GP bike. Of course I'm not at that level but If I can learn to get to my level I can improve and I'm telling you I''m going to be able to handle whatever I build or I'll take it apart. I have no death wish. I know there's kids in there early years who can run circles around me. What do I care. I just want to be as good and fast as I can. Power is a good thing on a track bike and if they weren't so strictly governed whoever had the fastest bike would probably win since the top riders are so close in ability Gotta run guys...best to you all. Nic.

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I think mentally you're heading in the wrong direction. . it's not about the "fastest" bike. It's about the fastest "rider" around a particular track. If you want the "fastest" bike - define the terms of what/where you want fastest ? Right now you're strictly talking straight line. Because no matter how you configure a Hayabusa, it will not be the fastest bike around the tracks that they ride on. It /might/ on a long oval, or predominantly straight track, or on a long airport strip - but not around a track. .. So you keep saying you don't care about curves or circles etc - but then whats the point of taking a cornering school ?

 

And honestly, if you wanted the most powerful bike, you can get a 400 hp turbine bike right now. . . Its the most powerful bike I know out there. . . But it isn't really able to get around a track. A 250cc moriwaki would probably kill it. ..

 

And its not that no one will give you power to weight, its because its different for different bikes, eras, manufacturers, etc. I own one of the closest to motogp replica bikes ever made - nothing is as close as this bike is to the actual thing. . It's 200hp to 377lb - does that answer your question ? It might, but just because you increase one or decrease the other doesn't mean its better because there are other factors (where the weight is, sprung/unsprung, suspension, rideability, traction, etc etc)

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The fastest bike around a track is the bike that can use the most average power. A turbo cannot deliver that because it doesn't make power in a smooth and predictable way. It is fast, but what good does it do when you must wait 2-3 seconds longer every corner before coming on the gas just to be able to control the power? And what do you think will happen with your confidence when your bike hits you in the face with the fuel tank at 150 mph because you used just a bit too much throttle? Finally, talking race bikes, why do you think they reduced the power of the old 500 two-strokes from about 220 to about 180 hp? It's back to the average amount of power used for a full lap again.

 

 

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Erik, I know you must be a good rider but don't under estimate me please. I've been studying Keith's work like a guy in a PhD program. No offense intended...OK?

 

No Offense, but if you think the answer to improving your lap times and performance in the twisties is bumping your bikes HP from 181 to 215, I think you just got a "F" on your doctoral thesis. I think you need to look at Warregl's signature line long and hard and ponder what it truly mean's

 

Well...that certainly was informative. I disagree with most of it but that's ok because I respect your opinion.

 

You seem to disagree with the advice and opinions of pretty much everyone here, people who have attended the school, some many times and are regular track day riders. What do you base your opinion that we are all incorrect and you somehow know better on ? Again I stress that if you want to turn your bike into a Hot Rod no one here will think any less of you, but you can't make it into a Hot Rod and a Canyon Carver at the same time.

 

Does your bike wheelie in 1st ?, 2nd ? 3rd ? 4th ? if yes then you have more power then you can use, once your front tire is in the air you are losing drive, Now bump it up to 215 hp, you wont be able to keep the front end down, so you'll have to lower it and stretch the swingarm etc. etc. , and then you wont be able to keep the back tire hooked up, so you'll have to cram a 300 series tire on the back, eventually you end up with something like this

or perhaps this

,

 

there is nothing wrong with these bike's, if thats what you want to ride more power to you, but they are NOT going to turn fast laps at a race track or make short work of windy roads

 

Here is a lovely example of when "More Power" is slower 300+ HP and 300+ FtLbs of Torque, yet it still looses in a straight line to something with half the power, there was a lovely article in Roadracing World recently on the 40 Hp Motogp Bikes gained when switching from the 800cc to 1000cc bikes and how it's made almost 0 difference, 40 HP !!! yet track records were broken at only 7 out of the 18 tracks, and those only just barely. Ask any of the guys in the Ducati garage if they want "more power" or more "front end feel" heck ask any pro racer, one of the places the Ducati loses the majority of its time is on corner exit due to is massive and violent power which millions of dollars of electronics and armies of engineers toil endlessly to reign in.

 

The reason no one can give you the true power to weight ratio on GP bikes is no one knows, their specs are closely guarded secrets but the minimum allowed weight for a 4 cylinder is 330 Lbs and they make around 240 HP, and Millions of dollars of electronics working nonstop to actually put that power to the ground

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Thanks Eirik, It impressed me that a hot rod turned into a major step forward in motorcycle road racing. Very cool of you to respond to my need. I think we'll be crossing paths a lot in the forums judging by your post count. I really want to be a better rider and this looks like a great place to hang out. Nic

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T, I'm not really sure how you're trying to avoid offending me and be helpful to me by posting all sorts of crazy stuff which seems designed to embarrass me. I know the big boys are way restricted in power so there's a level playing field. Seems like you take this all very personally and for me its about becoming a better rider and using every tool at my disposal. Nic

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Shakabusa, I do not think that was T-McKeen's intention with the post. Instead, the way I read it, he want to make sure that you read and understand what advice have been given to you with an open mind. I know from experience that can be very hard, especially when it contradicts with a firm conviction.

 

For instnace, I am absolutely positive that you will be able to ride considerably faster around any typical race track on a box stock Suzuki SV650 than you will manage on a low geared 215 hp Hayabusa with upgraded suspension, wheels, tyres, brakes and whatnot. That is because the Hayabusa will be a beast to ride fast, whereas the SV650 is easy and forgiving. The Busa will FEEL a lot faster and scare the beejezez out of you, but the SV will circulate faster while allowing you to hone your skills. Having a lot of power will simply do very little other than firing off your SRs constantly. More is not always better.

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E,

Thanks. You continue to think I'm scared on my bike but I'm not. I'm just as sure T will be answering for himself. Lastly, guaranteed I'll go faster on most if not all tracks on my "whatnot" Busa than a 600. Thanks again my Norwegian buddy.

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Shakabusa, I do not think that was T-McKeen's intention with the post. Instead, the way I read it, he want to make sure that you read and understand what advice have been given to you with an open mind. I know from experience that can be very hard, especially when it contradicts with a firm conviction.

 

For instnace, I am absolutely positive that you will be able to ride considerably faster around any typical race track on a box stock Suzuki SV650 than you will manage on a low geared 215 hp Hayabusa with upgraded suspension, wheels, tyres, brakes and whatnot. That is because the Hayabusa will be a beast to ride fast, whereas the SV650 is easy and forgiving. The Busa will FEEL a lot faster and scare the beejezez out of you, but the SV will circulate faster while allowing you to hone your skills. Having a lot of power will simply do very little other than firing off your SRs constantly. More is not always better.

Superb comments Eirik. I wholeheartedly agree.

 

I see a comment repeated often among the track day forums: track day vets decide to step up and try a liter bike only to quickly return to a 600 because the liter bike simply is a lot more effort for no or very little gain (and sometimes turning into a loss).

 

Going back to my previous example, our local pro was running ~1:50 in AMA Supersport at NOLA. He's been firmly 2-3 sec off that pace since going to a superbike (and despite reaching higher straight speeds).

 

I don't think anyone here is challenging your courage or determination. We're surely challenging the notion you'll perform better on turbo Busa ("hot rod") than you would on a smaller displacement bike specifically tuned for the track. If I was watching two equal riders, one on a track tuned SV650 (80 hp) and the other on a turbo Busa (200 hp?), I'd put my money on the SV650 every time.

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Everyone hear has been giving you good advice and information. As I said before - I think you're not allowing yourself to be opened to a different world of riding but "stuck" in this go fast in a straight line mentality. . . You keep mentioning that you're an avid student/learner yet you're completely stuck in your drag strip hot'rodded bike as being the best end-all. . .

 

What your missing from what everyone is telling you is that when you go to these schools, they are going to be pushing beyond where you've gone before. If you've read Keith's books, you should know about survival reactions and those will happen with a bike that isn't geared, compliant, matched to your skills, etc. . .

 

I've got 3 bikes that are 200hp+. . One is a MotoGP bike. I've been to the school countless times. Even I can guarantee that I would probably be faster on a 600 series bike than one of my 200hp bikes. I'm hoping someday that I will be able to extract the skills necessary that I will be faster on a 200hp+ bike that I will be faster. So what elrik is telling you is the absolute truth. After learning, you /will/ be faster on a 600 series bike than your busa. As we keep saying its NOT straight line speed, its your ability to keep speed around corners and accelerate out of corners that is the key. You're stuck on HP, get out of it. If you think the Busa is the best option for track - then why don't you see anyone racing it ? It's not because it doesn't fit any class, its because it will get slaughtered. And no matter what modifications you make to it, it will get slaughtered. It will get slaughtered by riders with half the horsepower that a Busa has.

 

Let me put it in even more black and white. hotfoot's been on here and gave you some advice as well. After you take the two day class, hotfoot can take her moriwaki 250cc (yeah, thats like 250cc compared to whatever your busa has), give you a 10 second headstart and still smoke you by a generous amount. . . If you took their best rider on your super charged hayabusa and let him ride it against the bmw s1000rr and put it in rain mode (chopping the horsepower down to 120 or something), they will still be faster on the bmw. So what does that tell you ? A rider MUCH BETTER than you or I will be faster on something else. Realize that as fact and accept it because it is what it is.

 

There is nothing wrong with riding a busa on the track - people do it all the time. But there is something wrong with close minded thinking that its the best thing on the track, or thinking that it'll be the best option for you on the track. Thats just plain wrong. There are many people who ride way faster than you around a track and telling you (multiple times) that it can be tracked, but its not the best option and you will be faster on a more nimble bike. If you don't want the accept it, not sure what else there is to say.

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Anthem,

You are so far off about my thinking that it couldn't be any further from the truth. Nuff said.

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