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Hayabusa On The Track

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Anthem,

Just for grins if a 600 is faster than a GP why aren't the top guys out there winning on them? Nic

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It can be enlightening to look at the all-time fastest lap record at various tracks and see what bike was used. As I recall for a long time the Streets of Willow track record was held by an SV650; I think now it is held by an RS125... and those are under 50hp.

 

As Anhem implied, I can turn a faster lap on my 37hp MD250 at Streets of Willow than I can on my 205 hp BMW. Higher horsepower bikes weigh more and simple physics dictates that heavier bikes cannot corner as fast as light ones. So, the twistier the track, the more the small, low hp bikes have the advantage, due to light weight and easily controllable power.

 

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Anthem,

Just for grins if a 600 is faster than a GP why aren't the top guys out there winning on them? Nic

GP riders are the elite of the elite in motorcycle racing. They learned to manage 220+ HP but they did this by starting at 25 HP and earning their way up the ranks over many years. Those of us who are mere track day riders, or even amateur racers, generally don't have the time, energy, money, techincal support, etc., to ever reach the level of skill needed to effectively manage a GP spec bike.

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Anthem,

Just for grins if a 600 is faster than a GP why aren't the top guys out there winning on them? Nic

 

You're just not getting it.. . . Plain and simple - You don't have the ability to harness the power that is on the Hayabusa around a track. And even and when you do - the limitations of the hayabusa will come into play where other bikes will easily exceed it.

 

And in answer to your questions - for instance at Laguna, there is only a couple seconds (2.xx) between the superbikes of AMA and the experimental prototype MotoGP bikes. Here is some laptimes from a couple years ago .

  • MotoGP - 1:21.376 Casey Stoner
  • AMA Superbike - 1:24.691 Josh Hayes
  • AMA Pro Sportbike - 1:27.586 Martin Cardenas

So the best rider in the world is less than 3 seconds faster than the best AMA rider from MotoGP to liter bikes and another 2.xx seconds to the 600cc supersport class. . .

 

Now, what you will read into that (and erroneously) is that you have the same skill based on those same bikes. You don't. Period. It doesn't scale that way - you hope you get better than you can tap the power to the more powerful bikes and then that will make you faster. A very fast rider just told you otherwise as well.

 

Hotfoot has just told you she's faster on a Moriwaki than she is on the BMW (depending upon track). How about this for a deflating ego scenario - You put your turbo on and take your bike to 250 or 300hp, she's going to take her 37hp moriwaki, give you a 10 second head start and still smoke you. . . So how does that 250hp sound now when you just got whipped by 37hp ??

 

Now, hotfoot will also tell you that there are certain tracks where she'll be faster on the higher hp machine. But she'll be faster on that moriwaki on any track they ride over your hayabusa by far. . . The only place that hayabusa has an advantage with its horsepower is on straights where you aren't leaned over. But you can't make it up in the straights with what you're giving up elsewhere. But she can better tap the power that the bigger liter bike has that you can't.

 

Like I said - you're not getting it and unwilling to accept anyone's input at this time. Your "stuck" and can't seem to get out.

 

Best thing is for you to go some track days, go to track schools, go to CSS. Keep an open mind and hopefully learn something. Maybe if Keith tells it to you straight up - you'll finally get it.

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Anthem,

Again, All I'm saying is the most power, properly applied to the pavement wins. Period. Nic

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Eirik,

Thanks very much for your thoughtful and kindly words to help me understand what's happening in the forum. Peace out.

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In May at Barber, in the WERA Superbike Expert class, 600's took two out of three podium spots and three of the top five in the superbike class. That's not a condemnation of liter bikes but an reflection of how good 600's can be.

 

Finishers:

1) #43 James Rispoli Suzuki GSXR 600

2) #94 Bobby Stoker Suzuki GSXR 1000

3) #5 Corey Alexander Suzuki GSXR 600

4) #183 Robert McLendon Triumph 675

5) #55 Justin Neyra Kawasaki ZX-10

 

If you build your turbo Busa then I hope it all works out for you.

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Anthem,

Again, All I'm saying is the most power, properly applied to the pavement wins. Period. Nic

 

I guess all the magic happens in the "properly applied to the pavement" part. Otherwise my pickup truck would turn a faster laptime than my GP bike, because it's definitely got more power. :)

 

I dare say a huge amount of money in R&D on MotoGP bikes goes into improving suspension, reducing weight, and optimizing handling - I wonder how much is spent on that compared to increasing horsepower?

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Hotfoot, Is HP restricted or not. Why would you spend money on something you can't use? Nic

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If you mean in my race classes (I race with WERA), no, there is no HP limitation, just displacement. For example, I mostly race in classes that allow up to 500cc engines, I race a 250 and won the championship on it last year. I could race with the 600s and 1000s based on laptimes but they do not allow GP bikes in the Superbike classes - GP bikes would have unfair advantage, they are SO much lighter.

 

If you are talking about MotoGP, I think it is only an engine displacement limitation, not HP, but I'm not sure of that. I know the horsepower varies by manufacturer.

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Nic,

 

I honestly did not mean to offend, and the videos were in no way meant to embarrass you, if thats the part of my post with which you take offense I'm sorry, but I was simply trying to illustrate a point, one that I think you are almost starting to understand. The point is that HP is USELESS if it cannot be applied to the ground, and that once you start tweaking HP up beyond a certain point you must make additional tweaks to keep applying that power to the ground. I don't honestly think your Hayabusa will ever end up as crazy as the ones I linked to but the fact remains "Its not how much power you have, It's how much power you can use"

 

 

Again, All I'm saying is the most power, properly applied to the pavement wins. Period.

 

Outside of the dragstip this is not correct, The correct answer is the Bike/Car/Team with the highest average speed for the duration of the race wins, Period. For example, how many races have been won on fuel strategy, sacrificing a fraction every lap to skip a entire pit stop. Consider Tom Sykes and the ZX-10R last season, he clearly was putting more power to the pavement then anyone else in the series, his Superpole performances were undeniable, but how many races did he win ? He easily gapped the entire field from the start at many a race but all that power counted for nothing once it had destroyed his tires and he started going backwards. There are countless examples of races and championships that were NOT WON by the the vehicle with the most HP

 

Consider a mock race, around Laguna Seca. between a Top fuel dragster, 9,000 HP give or take, and lets say a doped up Lance Armstrong. NOTHING puts down more power to the pavement then a top fuel dragster but I'd put my money on the guy on the bicycle getting to the checker flag first,

 

for me its about becoming a better rider and using every tool at my disposal. Nic

 

How does adding 40 HP and a Turbo to you bike make you a better rider ? How does remain closed minded on a subject with which you have 0 first hand experience make you a better rider ? If I'm not mistaken you have yet to turn a single lap on a racetrack, yet remain so rooted in the inherent truthiness of your position despite the facts and hard evidence to the contrary

 

 

Why would you spend money on something you can't use?

 

This is the exact question we have all been asking you

 

Lastly, guaranteed I'll go faster on most if not all tracks on my "whatnot" Busa than a 600.

 

This statement ends in one of 2 ways,

 

1: you actually go to a racetrack and are so massively humbled by the experience and how little you really know about piloting a motorcycle around a track at speed, you will begin to grasp the sheer skill and ability that pro racers have and how far removed they are from the rest of the motorcycling population. If this is the case you will find that everything everyone said here was spot on advice.

 

or

 

2: It ends badly

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This is an extremely interesting and lively discussion. Shakabusa is raising some questions that haven't been seen on this forum for a long time, as many of us here have gravitated toward lower horsepower bikes as amazing learning tools.

 

So far it has remained reasonably civil (although borderline, occasionally) despite some obviously strong feelings - including a tremendous passion for various types of bikes (which is fantastic), powerful desires to learn and/or teach, and frustration at the limitations of forum communication.

 

This is just a gentle reminder to everyone (not to anyone in particular) please keep the discussion friendly, constructive, and helpful; Shakabusa, many of the riders on this thread have considerable track and racing experience and are more than willing to answer whatever questions you might have - throw out some specific questions and you'll no doubt get nearly instant response.

 

For the rest of us, remember one of the primary philosphies of the school is this: "if it isn't true for you, it isn't true". In other words, every student has to think through the material and understand it for himself, apply it in his/her own way. Being TOLD something, not matter how forcefully, is no substitute for going out and applying the material and seeing the results.

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T,

I appreciate that you took my feelings into consideration.

Hotfoot. I guess you're the moderator so I have to take cues from you.

Nic

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All,

I'm at something of a disadvantage here since I don't know how to do things like post a picture or take specific quotes to task. Its pretty obvious I'm getting hammered by several people and that's fine. I'm not afraid to engage in discourse. Its not my first time by a long shot. The fact that I've never been on a track doesn't diminish the strength of my assertions. Nic

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Very cool T. Thanks

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It's not the strength of your assertions, its as you say "never been on a track", but you seem to know whats best when others are telling/hinting at otherwise. . You had two CSS instructors pretty much tell you otherwise (subtly), but you absolutely won't believe them. . . Strange. I go to class to learn. They tell me what to do and I go out and try to do it. But I'm certainly not challenging them on it and telling them I'm right and they are wrong.

 

To each their own. I hope you go to the session and see what everyone here is talking about. Maybe it will be enlightening.

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Of course it is. For example, two riders of equal skill go through a turn come out together and the one dusts (as I did to a BMW S1000RR yesterday) . Who wins over time? Please don't scold me about where this took place. That's my business.

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Of course it is. For example, two riders of equal skill go through a turn come out together and the one dusts (as I did to a BMW S1000RR yesterday) . Who wins over time? Please don't scold me about where this took place. That's my business.

 

Kind of funny - seven people, with two being CSS instructors essentially telling someone with zero track experience that all things being equal in skills that you'll be faster on a S1000 type of track bike than a lowered, hot rod turbo Hayabusa and yet you'll continue to say equal skill with another rider and you'll dust another rider on an S1000rr with your hot rodded hayabusa. . amazing

 

Ok I should add se content - all things being equal, the s1000rr rider should be able to carry more speed into the corner, carry more speed through the corner and be able to get on the gas sooner to be exit. The only advantage the busa will have is after the corner in the straight over the BMW and even that would be very very marginal over the s1k.

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Two riders, perfectly equal, exit a turn side-by-side. Assuming no other wild disparity, if one is on a BMW then I'm betting my money on the BMW every time; it shouldn't even be close. BMW's are beating the snot out of Busa's at the dragstrip, let alone at real cornering. If the Busa is winning, then things are not otherwise equal as stipulated.

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I get a chuckle out of this. At first, I couldn't believe it, now it is hillarious :lol:

 

Shakabus a, you certainly get an A+ for persistence B) Very, very few would be able to stand up against the pressure you're faciing here. I'm honestly impressed! You are unfortunately not correct in your assumptions, which will be clear to you the moment you hit a track with your Busa, but I'm fine with you standing by your conviction until then. Oh, and you smoked that Beemer because you either are a better rider and/or are willing to take greater risks, not because your bike is in any way superior. You'll be amazed how much more important skill and bravado is compared to both power and handling.

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Yeah, I don't even know if he pinned it. Just took pleasure in the fact that I could be all over him. E, I honestly don't understand where I'm going wrong if I am.????

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I mean, I know a Hayabusa is not the perfect track bike...is that what everyone is all up in arms about?

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It can't be about two riders who get through turns at the same rate and one has a better top end. That's just indisputable. Nic

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Not quite sure I understand your question, but if you ask what I think I'd say you base your opinion about theoretical numbers over real life experience. In theory, more power will move an object faster. However, when it comes to motorcycles, things get more complicated. If you have more power than the tyre can take, you go nowhere but up in smoke. Think of old American muscle cars. They had so much torque, they could be nigh on impossible to get going in the wet and would be slower through the lights than a Toyota Celica that could find traction. Also, inertia makes it harder to turn a motorcycle. Crank inertia alone makes a big difference. For instance, at the same speed, you can change direction much quicker on your bike in 6th gear than in 1st gear simply because the crank will have far less inertia. However, your bike has a big engine with a big crank and as a result will always be harder to turn than let's say a 600, even if riding weight was the same. Another point is tyre width; wider tyres demand more lean for any given cornering speed and more effort to change direction and also are more easily affected by bumps during cornering. With less power, you can use lighter, narrower tyres with less inertia (there's that word again) that enhance stability without losing drive.

 

And so on. Hence you have to move a step forward from using physical logic and start studying the dynamics. Or you can accept what these experienced racers tell you straight up if you do not want to dive head first and learn all there is to know about motorcycle handling and performance. There is a reason why a stock Hayabusa is about 5 seconds off the pace of a GSX-R 600 and it is not about power to weight, but to how well the tool is for the task. If we go to extremes, would you move furnitures cross country for a living with a van or an 18 wheeler? And would you move small parcels around the inner city with the 18 wheeler or a van? Both vehicles is superp for the task they are designed for and lousy at other tasks.

 

Hope this helped at least intrigue you to do some further research, Shakabusa :)

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