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noamkrief

Downshifting While Braking

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Hey everyone.

 

This question is regarding the technique of downshifting while braking...

(anyone who downshifts before braking, please don't comment)

 

So there are 2 methods I guess:

1) blip the throttle while on the brakes and downshift. This is what I do.

2) use the slipper clutch technology and don't worry about the blip and just release the clutch slowly

 

 

 

The problem I'm having with method #1 is that although I'm comfortable doing this technique, you always loose a little sensitivity on the brake lever while having to blip the throttle. So if I'm braking at 100% and I screw up a little bit and while blipping I increase brake pressure accidentally I could get the rear off the ground too much. What i'm saying is that if I don't multitask with my right hand in braking and blipping at the same time, my brake pressure can be more predictable, consistent, with less possibility for errors.

 

The problem with method #2 is that I don't trust the slipper clutch. If the slipper clutch technology works so well, how come I hear riders in the braking zone release the clutch slowly? Should they be able to just release the clutch quickly without worrying about rear end lockup? I see very fast riders using this technique and their rear end is always squirming during the downshift clutch release moment.

 

 

I'm not the type to reinvent the wheel so I've watched alot of onboard motogp videos but I can't exactly tell which method they use. Sometimes I think I hear method #1 and sometimes #2.

 

 

Thanks for reading everyone :)

Noam

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you can try doing it motogp style if you have motogp style clutches ; specifically THIS

 

http://www.motorcyclistonline.com/newsandupdates/motorcycle_news/122_1107_is_an_advanced_gearbox_giving_honda_motogp_racers_an_edge/

 

Anything with lesser tech (minus the DCT) and you are just upsetting the bike...

 

And dont comment? This is nt your forum you know? Manners pls

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And dont comment? This is nt your forum you know? Manners pls

 

Explain yourself

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And dont comment? This is nt your forum you know? Manners pls

 

Explain yourself

 

In the original post, he says "anyone who downshifts before braking, please don't comment" which is a bit blunt, someone might have something valuable to add to the discussion, but to be told not to comment on an open forum isn't really in the spirit of this board.

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If the slipper clutch technology works so well, how come I hear riders in the braking zone release the clutch slowly?

 

How do you think you can "hear" how quickly they are releasing the clutch? What you hear is that at first the slipper clutch is slipping, so the engine revs don't rise very much, but then as the bike speed decreases and the back-torque declines, the clutch begins to engage and the engine speed starts to approach the driveline speed. That is a slipper working properly, and it sounds exactly like someone releasing the clutch slowly.

 

Some slippers work better than others, but I am happy to report to you that with mine (Bucci) I can downshift with no blip and simply dump the clutch, and let the internal workings look after the rest. I have not skidded the rear once since installing the thing. Mind you, I don't use the rear brake at all and also never downshift while leaned over.

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..........The problem I'm having with method #1 is that although I'm comfortable doing this technique, you always loose a little sensitivity on the brake lever while having to blip the throttle. So if I'm braking at 100% and I screw up a little bit and while blipping I increase brake pressure accidentally I could get the rear off the ground too much. What i'm saying is that if I don't multitask with my right hand in braking and blipping at the same time, my brake pressure can be more predictable, consistent, with less possibility for errors............

 

You should have no problem if you brake with two fingers and throttle with three.

With enough practice and proper ergos in the brake lever-your fingers, both inputs can be absolutely independent.

 

The rear tire doesn't lock because the clutch, but because the rpms' of the engine are not high enough to accept the new rate of transmission.

 

T of the T DVD names method #2 the "sloppy way" and clearly shows the proper way and controls' tempo.

 

Copied from:

http://www.motorcyclistonline.com/features/columns/122_1212_braking_and_downshifting_keith_code/

 

"To describe it in sequence is simple enough: The brake is applied. Roughly half way through the braking, the clutch is pulled in and the transmission is shifted down one gear. The rider then blips the gas (a rapid on/off twist of the grip) before releasing the clutch. Throughout this process, the rider also maintains or modulates front brake lever pressure to achieve the degree of braking necessary for the desired corner entry speed.

 

Using this technique, it takes less than half a second to execute a one-gear downshift. And just so it is clear, the throttle blip is done so that the engine revs match the bike’s speed once the clutch is released, making a smooth transition to that next gear down. You're the human slipper clutch.

 

What goes wrong? Commonly, I see riders pulling on the brake, pulling the clutch in, shifting down, and then slowly releasing the clutch. This can take two seconds or more. And that’s not all. There are a number of incorrect variations: over-revving the engine when the throttle is blipped; releasing the clutch lever too early, making the bike surge forward; letting the clutch out too late and losing the engine rpm needed; blipping the throttle before the clutch is disengaged causing a surge; and so on. There are many opportunities for mis-coordination." - Keith Code

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If the slipper clutch technology works so well, how come I hear riders in the braking zone release the clutch slowly?

 

How do you think you can "hear" how quickly they are releasing the clutch? What you hear is that at first the slipper clutch is slipping, so the engine revs don't rise very much, but then as the bike speed decreases and the back-torque declines, the clutch begins to engage and the engine speed starts to approach the driveline speed. That is a slipper working properly, and it sounds exactly like someone releasing the clutch slowly.

 

Some slippers work better than others, but I am happy to report to you that with mine (Bucci) I can downshift with no blip and simply dump the clutch, and let the internal workings look after the rest. I have not skidded the rear once since installing the thing. Mind you, I don't use the rear brake at all and also never downshift while leaned over.

 

Ah, maybe you're right. Maybe that's the sound of the slipper clutch that sounds the same as someone releasing the clutch slowly :)

 

On my 2013 Yamaha R6, if I dump the clutch without blipping the throttle, my rear end locks up momentarily. I guess the r6 is one of the bikes that has a bad slipper clutch.

 

Thanks for everyone's replies.

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And dont comment? This is nt your forum you know? Manners pls

 

Explain yourself

 

In the original post, he says "anyone who downshifts before braking, please don't comment" which is a bit blunt, someone might have something valuable to add to the discussion, but to be told not to comment on an open forum isn't really in the spirit of this board.

 

Yes sorry that came out wrong. What I meant is that I don't want to start a big debate on if you should downshift before braking, or WHILE braking... I was afraid it would lead to that....

my apologies for not wording it better...

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You mentioned a concern about keeping the brake pressure steady while blipping - a couple of things that can help with this - how many fingers are you using on the brake? Using 2 (as someone mentioned above) instead of 4 can make it easier to blip while maintaining steady brake pressure - easier to slide your fingers on the lever and you can grip the throttle with the other fingers. Check to make sure your gloves allow you to slide your fingers a little on the brake lever, to allow your hand to move enough to blip.

 

Some riders have success by focusing on using a forward push with the thumb to blip the throttle, using the upper part of the thumb where it connects to the hand to roll the throttle. If your hands are big you might find that technique easier.

 

Also check your brake lever adjustment, if you have to stretch to reach the brake lever, it will be tough to get smooth result on braking while downshifting.

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You mentioned a concern about keeping the brake pressure steady while blipping - a couple of things that can help with this - how many fingers are you using on the brake? Using 2 (as someone mentioned above) instead of 4 can make it easier to blip while maintaining steady brake pressure - easier to slide your fingers on the lever and you can grip the throttle with the other fingers. Check to make sure your gloves allow you to slide your fingers a little on the brake lever, to allow your hand to move enough to blip.

 

Some riders have success by focusing on using a forward push with the thumb to blip the throttle, using the upper part of the thumb where it connects to the hand to roll the throttle. If your hands are big you might find that technique easier.

 

Also check your brake lever adjustment, if you have to stretch to reach the brake lever, it will be tough to get smooth result on braking while downshifting.

 

Thank you. I use two fingers for brakes and I do actually focus on the thumb going forward for the blip.

My downshifts are very smooth and I can't feel them. The problem is that the 2 braking fingers must slide while blipping and I loose precision and feel. I'd say I loose about 5% precision which means if I was braking at 100%, I could accidentally apply 5% more pressure to the brakes while blipping and cause the rear wheel to lift off the ground more than I want it to...

 

Just wondering if the blipping is worth it or if I should just use the slipper clutch reliant technique so that way my right hand can focus 100% on maximum braking and feel...

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..

 

And dont comment? This is nt your forum you know? Manners pls

 

Explain yourself

 

In the original post, he says "anyone who downshifts before braking, please don't comment" which is a bit blunt, someone might have something valuable to add to the discussion, but to be told not to comment on an open forum isn't really in the spirit of this board.

Thanks for explaining it for me :)

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On my 2013 Yamaha R6, if I dump the clutch without blipping the throttle, my rear end locks up momentarily. I guess the r6 is one of the bikes that has a bad slipper clutch.

 

 

If you search the R6 forums you will find lots of complaints about the clutches not slipping as easily as they should. There is some kind of simple DIY mod that can fix that. Not sure if this applies to the 2013, but on older R6s it was a really common modification for track use. Do a google search and you will find it easily.

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You mentioned a concern about keeping the brake pressure steady while blipping - a couple of things that can help with this - how many fingers are you using on the brake? Using 2 (as someone mentioned above) instead of 4 can make it easier to blip while maintaining steady brake pressure - easier to slide your fingers on the lever and you can grip the throttle with the other fingers. Check to make sure your gloves allow you to slide your fingers a little on the brake lever, to allow your hand to move enough to blip.

 

Some riders have success by focusing on using a forward push with the thumb to blip the throttle, using the upper part of the thumb where it connects to the hand to roll the throttle. If your hands are big you might find that technique easier.

 

Also check your brake lever adjustment, if you have to stretch to reach the brake lever, it will be tough to get smooth result on braking while downshifting.

 

Thank you. I use two fingers for brakes and I do actually focus on the thumb going forward for the blip.

My downshifts are very smooth and I can't feel them. The problem is that the 2 braking fingers must slide while blipping and I loose precision and feel. I'd say I loose about 5% precision which means if I was braking at 100%, I could accidentally apply 5% more pressure to the brakes while blipping and cause the rear wheel to lift off the ground more than I want it to...

 

Just wondering if the blipping is worth it or if I should just use the slipper clutch reliant technique so that way my right hand can focus 100% on maximum braking and feel...

 

I find it to be worth it - it seems like a lot less wear and tear on the bike overall. But I do clutchless downshifts, with the blip. Once I got used to that I found it to be MUCH faster and easier than having to coordinate both hands as you do when using the clutch - even if you just dump the clutch and trust the slipper, it still takes extra attention, plus you have to trust perfect smoothness of the slipper clutch. I have not found the slipper clutches to be as smooth as a well executed clutchless downshift, but maybe I haven't experienced a really good slipper clutch.

 

Added advantage of clutchless downshifts with the blip is that it works on all my bikes - most of which don't have a slipper clutch. I do clutchless up and downshifts on the dual sport, for example, and I find the speed of it useful in the dirt, too.

 

I mention clutchless because it might be another way to allow you to focus on your right hand more and getting the blip and brake smoothed out, per you last comment.

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Just wondering if the blipping is worth it or if I should just use the slipper clutch reliant technique so that way my right hand can focus 100% on maximum braking and feel...

 

FWIW, I just installed a Yoyodyne slipper clutch in my '08 CBR600 and now I don't bother blipping the throttle at all during braking / downshifting. It is really smooth and the rear end remains very stable, even at very high rpms.

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.......... I'd say I loose about 5% precision which means if I was braking at 100%, I could accidentally apply 5% more pressure to the brakes while blipping and cause the rear wheel to lift off the ground more than I want it to...

 

Maybe you should do all hard braking first and start with downshifting only during the last phase of braking, which should never be 100%.

 

Two more useful articles:

http://forums.superb...p?showtopic=258

 

http://forums.superb...p?showtopic=310

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.......... I'd say I loose about 5% precision which means if I was braking at 100%, I could accidentally apply 5% more pressure to the brakes while blipping and cause the rear wheel to lift off the ground more than I want it to...

 

Maybe you should do all hard braking first and start with downshifting only during the last phase of braking, which should never be 100%.

 

Two more useful articles:

http://forums.superb...p?showtopic=258

 

http://forums.superb...p?showtopic=310

 

I would love to press the like button on the left but it isnt working(for me that is :) )

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.......... I'd say I loose about 5% precision which means if I was braking at 100%, I could accidentally apply 5% more pressure to the brakes while blipping and cause the rear wheel to lift off the ground more than I want it to...

 

Maybe you should do all hard braking first and start with downshifting only during the last phase of braking, which should never be 100%.

 

Two more useful articles:

http://forums.superb...p?showtopic=258

 

http://forums.superb...p?showtopic=310

 

The only time I shouldn't be at 100% braking force is once I start leaning the bike and trailing off the brakes. So You are saying I should do my downshifting during turn entry phase? Sounds scary...

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On my 2013 Yamaha R6, if I dump the clutch without blipping the throttle, my rear end locks up momentarily. I guess the r6 is one of the bikes that has a bad slipper clutch.

If you search the R6 forums you will find lots of complaints about the clutches not slipping as easily as they should. There is some kind of simple DIY mod that can fix that. Not sure if this applies to the 2013, but on older R6s it was a really common modification for track use. Do a google search and you will find it easily.

I had the same experience with my '08 R6 as noamkrief, and as YellowDuck says - it's a common grief (no pun intended). I even mentioned this to a Yamaha dealer, and said that I should get an aftermarket slipper for racing - which I did.

Made a heaven of difference on the slipping action. :)

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The only time I shouldn't be at 100% braking force is once I start leaning the bike and trailing off the brakes. So You are saying I should do my downshifting during turn entry phase? Sounds scary...

 

No, I am saying that maybe you should do all hard braking first (full braking force to reduce a gross amount of speed quickly) and start with downshifting only during the last phase of braking (softer braking force just to adjust the entry speed), which should never be 100%.

 

From Chapter 24 - Efficient Braking of A Twist of the Wrist 2:

"Trapping yourself into heavy braking at your turn-point is working against the desired result. The basic product (end result) of braking is to get the speed set accurately for the turn."

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The only time I shouldn't be at 100% braking force is once I start leaning the bike and trailing off the brakes. So You are saying I should do my downshifting during turn entry phase? Sounds scary...

 

No, I am saying that maybe you should do all hard braking first (full braking force to reduce a gross amount of speed quickly) and start with downshifting only during the last phase of braking (softer braking force just to adjust the entry speed), which should never be 100%.

 

From Chapter 24 - Efficient Braking of A Twist of the Wrist 2:

"Trapping yourself into heavy braking at your turn-point is working against the desired result. The basic product (end result) of braking is to get the speed set accurately for the turn."

 

I find it ironic that this thread has become overly hardware biased instead of upgrading ones "software" ...

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Third method: Shift without clutch using throttle control...wickedly effective but watch out you don't blow your shaft; It better be good and so with your chain. It takes some finesse but I highly recommend it. If your good you can up and downshift this way although I usually use my clutch from first to second because of the ratios and torque. I've got massive torque and xtra weight on my bike/rider combo. Hope this is enlightening and not coming off as bravado. Keith mentions using this method I on either up or down (don't recall which) in one of his Twist books I believe; Also a chance its in Soft Science.

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