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noamkrief

Downshifting While Braking

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Eirik,

 

We didn't measure that. We were tarmac-space limited so maybe 60-70kph before braking.

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I don't cruise about, only own a race bike and BIR is a fast course....not the track you want to learn clutchless downshifting on when you are coming out of turn 2 in 6th gear and braking/ downshifting for turn 3.

 

I think my bigger issue is I am coming up to my corner and I have my braking point established, I apply the front brake but I don't downshift until roughly halfway to 3/4 of the way through my braking so now I am almost to my turn point and rushing to grab gears which further increases my timing mess up and coordination because now I am trying to accomplish too many things at once.

 

Didn't you self-diagnose right there?

 

If you feel rushed, back a bit off like on the CSS drills; build the right technique in at a lower speed and only then increase the speed.

 

What about trying to start down-shifting about 1/2 half through the braking? would this make you feel less rushed?

 

Downshifting before braking (without a slipper) would send the engine into a lot of RPMs, and possibly over-rev it (or lock up the rear wheel).

Does this sound right to you?

I think that this article by Keith is exactly what you need: Brake/down.

 

Kai

Are you saying your bike is not street legal? Because you have a slipper, get the downshifting done and focus on your entry speed instead.Remember you can downshift with a roll off also...

 

 

That is correct, my bike is not street legal. All race bodywork, no lights, no plate, no insurance and ect.

 

"khp"

 

It's not that my pace is "too fast" for me, I really feel that I am only riding at 70-80% on trackdays. I give myself plenty of time to setup my braking and downshifting before a turn and make sure to purposely give myself more then enough lead time for screw ups so I don't risk running off track or blowing the corner.

 

This Friday I will have to try downshifting 1/2 way through braking.

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With all the ABS generations I've seen student on, we could always get the rider to stop the bike in a shorter distance by not engaging the ABS. Well, assuming that the rider was well trainable, that is :)

 

I assume it was very stock out of the factory ABS...

 

If you dig deeper into the tech parts bin in many racing teams ... R-ABS specifically tuned/programmed for the bike (ie the whole package with TC) , that is out of the league for most learners performance and price wise...

 

And then there is the C-ABS by Honda which is... pretty good for a mass produced ABS system as it uses the rear brake to physically up the threshold limit of the front brake from locking up...

 

Always good to practice with both primary(ABS) and secondary (no abs) braking methods and be familiarized ...

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.........So, while I think noamkrief intends "100% braking" to mean maximum possible braking force allowed by the traction conditions, someone else might think he means squeezing the brake lever as hard as possible.........

 

Yes, I believe that noamkrief has been talking about force of braking or deceleration rather than time of application of that force.

 

Although I may be wrong, I have been trying to explain that it has been documented that something like this ______-----------_______ is not the correct way of decelerating a bike before entering a turn at high speed.

 

Each control input resonates onto the field of other controls, engine, steering and suspension.

Any abrupt transition (no brake---100% brake---no brake) will upset the suspension and the very important front contact patch and will interfere with achieving the ideal entry speed at the ideal entry point (remember the no-brakes exercise) and even with the quick flick that should follow that point.

 

http://forums.superb...php?showtopic=9

 

Focusing on the controls, especially on one control at a time is not the best we can do.

 

For bikes of small power, it is faster to decelerate than to accelerate, reason for which, optimizing the acceleration process is more important than slowing down on a dime.

 

These article and graphs are interesting:

 

http://www.sportride..._skills_series/

 

http://www.sportrider.com/riding_tips/1306_using_the_rear_brake/photo_02.html

 

http://www.sportride...s/photo_02.html

 

http://www.sportride...s/photo_03.html

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They claim that the ABS on my 2013 K1300s is so good you can't beat it, and they say you can't feel it. That its much better than the one on the S1000rr. Well, I can't attest to that as I've never felt it kick in! Maybe because I don't really ever brake hard to begin with, preferring not to brake at all, so I wonder a) if it's even possible to 'defeat' ABS on the newer (2012 and up) bikes in the liter plus class?

 

I have heard that Honda's C-ABS is not that pleasant to work with, so that may be an outlier, but the other major brands?

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.......... I'd say I loose about 5% precision which means if I was braking at 100%, I could accidentally apply 5% more pressure to the brakes while blipping and cause the rear wheel to lift off the ground more than I want it to...

 

Maybe you should do all hard braking first and start with downshifting only during the last phase of braking, which should never be 100%.

 

Two more useful articles:

http://forums.superb...p?showtopic=258

 

http://forums.superb...p?showtopic=310

 

The only time I shouldn't be at 100% braking force is once I start leaning the bike and trailing off the brakes. So You are saying I should do my downshifting during turn entry phase? Sounds scary...

 

I highly doubt that is what he means. But like you, I can see how that would lead you to take his comment as such.

 

For me, there is simply not enough time and track available to brake hard first, then downshift. For example; when coming to the end of a long back straight with a corner approaching. It's common for me to still be going triple digits at the 500ft marker. I have to time my downshifts well during HARD braking or accept whatever gear I am in (if I miss one) at the point of turn in, then start trail braking as needed That is the skill of it. :) Keep at it, with good practice, it should become mostly a non event. It's not so bad on my R6 the slipper somewhat makes up for my errors, while racing the 250 however.... it gives me so much more drama on corner entry when I get it wrong.

 

Here is the question though, which makes you and the bike feel better? The manual method or letting the slipper figure it out?

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They claim that the ABS on my 2013 K1300s is so good you can't beat it, and they say you can't feel it. That its much better than the one on the S1000rr. Well, I can't attest to that as I've never felt it kick in! Maybe because I don't really ever brake hard to begin with, preferring not to brake at all, so I wonder a) if it's even possible to 'defeat' ABS on the newer (2012 and up) bikes in the liter plus class?

 

I have heard that Honda's C-ABS is not that pleasant to work with, so that may be an outlier, but the other major brands?

 

How so? My limited experience with the yamaha XJ6 and C-ABS equipped honda NC700 says the C-ABS is vastly superior to front only ABS systems ..

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Honda have set the ABS to suit average riders, meaning the bikes will not brake hard enough to lift the rear wheel under any circumstance and alas not obtain maximum stopping force. The XJ6 will lift its rear wheel even two-up. Ducati have allowed their bikes to flip over forward without ABS interfering if there is enough grip. The long and relatively low K1300 will not do a wheel stand and as such can come to a dead stop very, very quickly since BMW have taken advantage of this and tuned the ABS for max braking force. If you tried to stop the S1000RR as quickly, it would simply flip over forwards; it's too short and too high.

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Honda have set the ABS to suit average riders, meaning the bikes will not brake hard enough to lift the rear wheel under any circumstance and alas not obtain maximum stopping force. The XJ6 will lift its rear wheel even two-up. Ducati have allowed their bikes to flip over forward without ABS interfering if there is enough grip. The long and relatively low K1300 will not do a wheel stand and as such can come to a dead stop very, very quickly since BMW have taken advantage of this and tuned the ABS for max braking force. If you tried to stop the S1000RR as quickly, it would simply flip over forwards; it's too short and too high.

 

Both have ABS (one of the procedures was to e-brake from 30-0 within 10 meters) ... but you do have a point about wheelbase length and COG...

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Yes, I meant the XJ6 with ABS. MOTORRAD had a picture sometime back with two men on the bike and the rear wheel high in the air.

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