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"can You Lean This Safely On The Street?" Twist Ii

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Keith, You posed this question rhetorically because we're supposed to know the answer. With all due respect for some of us not only is this possible but its necessary due to finances and choice. Illegality is yet another conundrum.

For students please help me with this.

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Should read "Can you LEARN this safely on the street".

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Man, I just can't get this right...its a paraphrase from Twist II...most of you will know what I mean.

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SAFELY is really the word that concerns me the most. Thanks

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There's a good bit of stuff you can certainly learn on the street in full compliance of local traffic laws and being completely safe. All of the Visual skills taught in the school apply everywhere. Heck I have even practiced my visual skills walking down hallways. Its absolutely amazing how much more more stuff you see in life when you turn on "wide view". :)

 

I learned to hang off at the school but then went and practiced in a parking lot. If you find a large, wide open parking lot, free of debris and traffic that's a great place to practice. Emphasis on "free of debris". This happened to my tire because I did not bother checking for debris ahead of time. That was an expensive lesson but worth every penny as it REALLY boosted my confidence.

 

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You don't have to break speed limits to practice your line and finding your turn points on familiar corners. Rev matched downshifts while braking is great to practice on the street too. I actually practice my rev match down shifting while braking riding my 1997 Harley Fatboy. Even though it's "A Hog" (no pun intended) with a tractor transmission it still has a brake lever and a throttle to blip. :)

 

I find going out and focusing on "one thing" on a ride is really helpful when I practice things on the street. A little thought ahead of time about what you want to work on and picking a good route to accomplish your goal safely is key. It makes for a great afternoon of riding that's productive at the same time. Win win.

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Keith, Question unfairly posed as I realize now, again that rhetorical may not apply. Can you learn this safely on the public roads?

r, Thank you. Breaking the speed limit is a big issue. My lawyer and police (except for a very few who ride hard on the street) wholeheartedly agree with you. Otherwise we share similar experiences but for my lack of track experience.

Coaches? Cobie, I know some of your thoughts on this as to the geographic problems for some of us to get to the track because of how you had to travel in the beginning of your career. I think you have strong opinions regarding the safety of others on public roads.

All, This is really a tough issue for me so please bear with me.

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Keith, Question unfairly posed as I realize now, again that rhetorical may not apply. Can you learn this safely on the public roads?

r, Thank you. Breaking the speed limit is a big issue. My lawyer and police (except for a very few who ride hard on the street) wholeheartedly agree with you. Otherwise we share similar experiences but for my lack of track experience.

Coaches? Cobie, I know some of your thoughts on this as to the geographic problems for some of us to get to the track because of how you had to travel in the beginning of your career. I think you have strong opinions regarding the safety of others on public roads.

All, This is really a tough issue for me so please bear with me.

Not that tough that I can't find some humor in it such as to float a boat one needs water which we have plenty of after all it is an Island. One need a motorcycle that can fit the bill and ours certainly are. We (here) have envisioned a Motorsports park but need help to get it real to make the question above a non-issue.

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In addition we are trying to establish a Motorsports park here on LI; A joint venture between NYS Park and Private rescources. This is making the impossible possible to make moot (cow's opinion doesn't matter) the question entertained. Since getting more ridiculous by the minute I will stop and go back to sleep.

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If you ask if you can safely learn the outer limits of your bike's performance envelope on the street, the answer is no. You can do it on an empty parking lot, at least until the police arrives, but even so you will not have tuition.

 

Still, there are lots of things you can practice on the road in safety. Quick steering, turning in at the right point, getting back on the throttle to balance the bike at the right time, carrying the right lines (although the right lines on the road will rarely be the same as the right lines on a track - on the road you will want to maximize how far you can see, on the track you want to go for the best lap times) and braking performance. If you ride a particular section of a road first and inspect the surface for sand, bumps and gravel etc. and find it to be clear, you can also push harder than during the first run in relative safety. The most important thing, if safety is paramount, is to never ride faster than that you can stop within the distance you can see to be clear. So if you can physically take a corner doing 100 mph but you do not see enough to do 50 mph, you need to go at the slower speed if you want to be safe. But it's hard to restrain yourself when the heat is on ;)

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Read Muggets Risk and Cobies Nice Piece on the School and Both made me think even more on what drives me to do what I do, when, where, how, and why, on a bike. Vulnerability is such a difficult thing to put out on the Forums sometimes but I'm doing it but feeling anxious, panicked, and humiliated by it at times. Yet, thank God, sometimes I see others doing the same thing in more subtle and sometimes even overt ways. Others are simply confidently expressing their views. I even see evidence if some of my most distressing personal issues, the death of a loved one, and a medical issue. I've been told that I'm living proof that one can overcome tremendous obstacles. Carefully cryptically at times I continue to travail across the path that let me here and continues yet more each day in the School. Today i promised myself I would read more and write less but these two topics are too tempting to accomplish this completely as of today. At 2am I can hear my wife finally sleeping soundly again in the next room while i recline comfortably on my chez with the opportunity to express myself clearly once again. It takes precious time. I get it right and then I find I'm shot down by the computer...a statement that might raise your ire Keith. That I even address you directly seems maybe too bold especially as sleep beckons. All I can say at this point is I'm doing the best I can so please all don't abandon me as a crazy old man of 60 trying to vainly fulfill a dream with an outworn keyboard. Many missteps. As much as I love married life this too can be a stumbling block. So now finally living in the solution: After reconsideration cf I find good natured not exactly the word I wanted but calm, serene, soulful, finely designed by you Keith. A great new piece on the School which led me back to the very entertaining UK piece by a woman named of all things Sheila after having read an Aussie expressing his views on coaching prompting me to laugh in final misogyny yet finally leading me back to the topic. Wow, what a trip! Now to try again later today.

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CALM, Constructive, peaceful, romantic, serene. Now more so as I recover from my fatigue. Riding 2up today. Yesterday 26.3 mi on N shore LI in/around Port Jefferson to past ST James, through Stoneybrook U parking lot complete in speed limit partially then fully when I thought I saw a full blown State Policeman then realized it was U other car (Ford police style). Then to 97 Nicholls Rd less than 100 and wondering why SC Police, SC Sheriff continually stop but accept PAL card? as pass. Looking for legit Fireman's badge in racing support to top out and get the full pass hopefully but then can't screw-up and hurt someone. N'cest pas? Become a real E. Setauket Fireman fulfilling another lifelong dream from age 16.

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Thanks Eirik,

I was wondering when you were going chime in since this was partially your idea...the thread. Great suggestions and I'm going to respectfully agree to disagree on the limits of my bikes performance cause I'm not sure that's ever happening or I'm just to prideful to say "I can't". Gottta go wife has groceries.

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Did almost 270 mi today practicing practicing practicing. I noticed Keith that you cover your brake with the outer three fingers which is new to me and perfectly logical with the BMW's long flowing curved levers. I think I've heard of "feathering" the gas with the index and pointer fingers before. I noticed this today in a picture of you on your S1k with the comment something like "69 year old Keith Code is still a knee dragger" in an article about your trail braking interview which I did not finish yet but recognized a lot of from previous writings. Someone please let me know if I've got this wrong because I tried the technique most of the day and it worked like a charm. Worked a lot on vision the last two days (yesterday was 140mi trip to Hells Kitchen on the Island of Manhattan from East Setauket and back). Lots of interesting stuff on these two ride days; Just trying to apply all the things from my studies now that the roads are clearing of sand, the potholes are getting filled, and the road surface temperature is rising. I'm falling asleep again because I was up getting the house ready for my wife off to work since I have had lots of hours off yesterday, today and tomorrow, then on the road by 7:45 am and I rolled in around midnight (took a long break in the middle of the day to shower, stretch, relax after cleaning the bike, check the tires, chain and such). I organized an evening ride for the Long Island Sport Bike Meet-up Group and the Last Minute Rider Meet-up Group. Very small attendance and did maybe eighty miles but a worthwhile ride and a good start for Spring riding nonetheless. I always "feel" like I'm a better rider after I put in hundreds of miles doing various kinds of cornering with all that I've learned in School. I've put in a lot of good time on my bike "Black Night". Its amazing how instantly one obtains local celebrity status with a bike, especially one like a modified S1k. I'm so grateful you all Socratic-ally Reasoned me into it. All in all, It makes me "feel" like a good rider when I put in a lot of miles doing various kinds of cornering. Hope you are finding my answer to my own questions based on the feedback I'm getting interesting and useful. Good night.

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Should read "Can you LEARN this safely on the street".

 

Going back to your original question at the start of this thread, this question is posed in Twist II in the section about steering the bike quickly. Assuming good traction, good tires that are up to temp, and suspension in good working order, what do YOU think? Any reason why you couldn't practice increasing your steering rate on the street?

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Shakabusa, have you considered starting your own blog about riding? That would give you an excellent way to share your riding experiences with others, and allow you to attract followers (from your motorcycle club, for example) so they can read your journal entries about your rides, and your riding experiments, and follow your journey as you explore various riding techniques.

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Shakabusa, have you considered starting your own blog about riding? That would give you an excellent way to share your riding experiences with others, and allow you to attract followers (from your motorcycle club, for example) so they can read your journal entries about your rides, and your riding experiments, and follow your journey as you explore various riding techniques.

 

I think this is a GREAT idea. With lots of photos and perhaps some video as well. Not enough people out there sharing their personal journey for fear of judgement. :)

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Thanks for the blog idea. I'l have to learn how to blog.

 

Want to thank you all and rchase and Eirik thanks for telling me exactly what to look for and how to set-up drills and what drills will work in the speed limit and parking lots. I learned A Lot from these suggestions. I'm finding Keith and Eirik that there is a limit to what can be safely learned on the public roads because I'm becoming too fast and can't risk other's safety and my own. Its a two edged sword to know I'm getting much faster...measured lap times but I'm now coming up on traffic and law enforcement so fast that its not worth it anymore. Its going to be all about getting ready for May 20 at NJMSP and CODE RACE after I complete all my levels. I'm also looking into track days with the New York Sport Bike Meet-up Group.

 

Would I do the blog in the Forums or elsewhere?

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The important thing to keep in mind is you don't have to go "fast" to get good practice. I regularly practice my visual skills on my Harley Davidson. Fast is not the word you would use to describe an 800# motorcycle with saddle bags and a windshield. You can practice a lot of the skills we mentioned before at any speed. Quick steer can be done on any bike and at any speed. I remember several scenes in the TOTW videos where they were quick steering full touring Harleys. Just go out with one skill in mind and practice that but do keep fully aware of your surroundings.

 

As for the blog. You can setup a quick blog at Google's blogspot.com. An example of a blog is my personal "technoblog" that I use to jabber on endlessly about technology stuff when I want to talk about stuff that my employer does not want to include on our corporate site.

 

P.S. I practiced a lot of the stuff in the books before I even came to the school. The instructors coaching and the track environment add a whole other dimension to what's written in the book. All the information is there of course but somehow the improvements with a coach are on a whole different scale entirely. I learn so much riding with the coaches that even though I have completed Levels 1-4 I am heading back this May to ride with them at Barber to do Level 4 again. I can't wait! :)

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Shakabusa, have you considered starting your own blog about riding? That would give you an excellent way to share your riding experiences with others, and allow you to attract followers (from your motorcycle club, for example) so they can read your journal entries about your rides, and your riding experiments, and follow your journey as you explore various riding techniques.

 

I think this is a GREAT idea. With lots of photos and perhaps some video as well. Not enough people out there sharing their personal journey for fear of judgement. :)

I finally got started on this tonight. Its surely helpful and fun. I thought I would feel more like a fish out of water without all my fellow students there to guide me but as long as I keep it simple it should be ok. On that note I'll share the fact here but not there just yet that I crashed, minor but nonetheless crashed, again, and its definitely time for me to tone it down some. I have this really bad habit of getting overconfident and forgetting to keep my effort below the level which will get me into trouble. I'm leaving to much to chance and not using enough common sense and well accepted science. I'm almost OK if i'm on the track where risk is minimized but not so on the streets and public roads where there are a host of complications that can make a simple minor crash something serious. I don't mind retracing my steps through Twist 2 with a friend who's more advanced than I and can make observations and help me create training videos that I can post here and get feedback on...I think I'll answer the question "Can you learn..." with respect to a more generalized set of circumstances and say "no", There are simply some sets of day to day experiences of practices that get too dangerous to be tried on the public roads; Quick flicking sometimes being one of them. Thanks again for the eye opener.

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Sorry to hear about the crash. Hope you and the bike made it out of the crash mostly unscathed.

 

Do you have a link to your blog? I'm always interested in reading about other people's experiences. :)

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There are simply some sets of day to day experiences of practices that get too dangerous to be tried on the public roads; Quick flicking sometimes being one of them.

 

 

While I definitely agree that some drills and techniques are best left to the track environment, what is it about the "Quick Flick" technique that you consider unsafe for public road ?

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Sorry to hear about the crash. Hope you and the bike made it out of the crash mostly unscathed.

 

Do you have a link to your blog? I'm always interested in reading about other people's experiences. :)

Thanks r, We both made it out ok except for a little bruising and a couple of pieces of broken plastic. I'm using the opportunity to replace the belly pan with carbon fiber and to soothe my bruised ego, I'm also adding three more pieces of carbon fiber which all together is going to make my baby Black Night look really good. My blog is in its infancy so to make it worth your while I'll send you the link once it looks like a real blog. Thanks for giving me reason to keep working on it. I'm heading over there right now.

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There are simply some sets of day to day experiences of practices that get too dangerous to be tried on the public roads; Quick flicking sometimes being one of them.

 

 

While I definitely agree that some drills and techniques are best left to the track environment, what is it about the "Quick Flick" technique that you consider unsafe for public road ?

I was mostly thinking of wet conditions and when you are going too slow like in the Twist 2 DVD. I guess it was a little bit of overkill but in the moment I was writing I was angry with myself for crashing and the emotional component caused me to find fault anywhere possible. I had come to the point that Keith noted in the introduction to Twist 2 under the heading 75 Percent Perfect (page xiv) where the panic button..."ruins self-respct, confidence and trust in oneself, and the process". I don't know if you've ever crashed and come to the point where you felt this way. Although I've mostly made the best of this experience in the sense that I made it an opportunity to learn from my mistakes there is still the part of me that wants to say, thats enough I quit, it too dangerous, I don't have what it takes to learn this. Fortunately I know that if I take my time and learn everything in the book as where Doug Chandler says in the Forward, "Don't be in a hurry. I've seen guys in a hurry and they don't make it. You've got to get these Ideas firm in your mind and then get comfortable with them in your own style, no matter how long it takes; because if you don't get these ideas you wont get any farther". So now I'm starting at the beginning and going over the whole book again with a more advanced student who is helping me understand each point one by one. In May I'll have my first day of coaching at level 1 and then level 2 in August. 3 and 4 next year and then CODERACE. I mostly want to get on the track and feel free and go after lower lap times.

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. I had come to the point that Keith noted in the introduction to Twist 2 under the heading 75 Percent Perfect (page xiv) where the panic button..."ruins self-respct, confidence and trust in oneself, and the process". I don't know if you've ever crashed and come to the point where you felt this way.

 

 

I have certainly felt that way and I suspect that MOST of us have! Not necessarily from a crash, just from trying to work through the challenges of riding a motorcycle; there are great days where barriers are overcome and you feel like a hero and lousy days where you wonder what the heck happened to your confidence and control. A day at school where you can get classroom education and then go straight out to the track and specifically practice each drill, with personal coaching, is the best thing in the world for increasing your understanding of how the bike works and improving your control of it. It is admirable that you are making such a study of the books and I commend you for that, but having some individual coaching makes it a lot easier.

 

For what it is worth, as I got more and more educated on CSS material and got more coaching, I got much better at recognizing the panic buttons, how to avoid the situations that push them, and how to overcome those survival reactions... so those days of frustration are mostly a memory. Of course with each new level of riding there are new challenges, and new barriers; the moments of panic are history but I still get that amazing "hero" feeling that goes with overcoming barriers and reaching new goal.

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Thanks Hotfoot, it will be great to get my SRs cut down to size and know, for sure, without question, how I should be handling my corners at this point in my riding development after getting hands on coaching.

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