Jump to content

Recommended Posts

Hello !

 

Been reading, for fun, dreaming about my next track day !

 

So, it seems that there is some controversy about how good the DDC is for real racing... Just curious, what do the experts / HP4 owner and racers think about this ?

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Its a pre-programmed system.

if you are under/over the stock spec weight , you will have to adjust the suspension system just like any traditional system to shift the sweet spot to favor you for races.

traditional systems consist of springs , oil viscosity , damping rate settings(low/hi rebound/compression clickers in the OHLINS TTX example).

DDS just adds an additional (semi active on the fly) software aspect to the suspension system.


As with any new tool, you will have to learn to use it properly to bring it to its maximum potential.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

DDC is an interesting system. The sag is adjusted manually as ktk_ace mentioned but everything else is adjusted by the bike 100x a second while you are out on track. I have never ridden one but I have loaded one in my trailer for a friend. You could feel DDC doing it's thing amazingly absorbing the bumps on the ramp up into the trailer. The bike also has the ability where you can make adjustments to the suspension via the electronic display for preference and fine tuning. For people who want more information and adjustment potential the datalogger and race calibration kit also have access to the DDC system.

 

When I first read about DDC I thought it might be limited and proprietary and something that eventually as my speed came up might be a limiting factor. As I have learned more about the system now I want it on my bike. Because it adapts in real time you have a much better adjustment for each corner of the track rather than making compromises setting manual suspension for the entire track.

 

As ktk_ace mentioned you do have to adapt to the system. I have read about riders who thought the system was a bit spooky because of how well it did it's adjustments. Eventually they adapted and learned to trust the system. I can't find the original article where the rider mentioned having to adjust to it but here's a review that gives a bit of track experience with the HP4.

 

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/motoring/motorcycle_manufacturers/bmw/9548951/BMW-HP4-review.html

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Hello !

 

Been reading, for fun, dreaming about my next track day !

 

So, it seems that there is some controversy about how good the DDC is for real racing... Just curious, what do the experts / HP4 owner and racers think about this ?

 

I noticed there hasn't been a lot of response to this question - I don't think there are many people USING the HP4 for racing, so I'm not sure you will find one in this forum group. I know a lot of people racing BMW1000rrs but I don't know anyone racing the HP4 version. I know at least five or six people here in California that own one (and 3 of those are racers) but none of them are racing that bike. We have a guy that volunteers to crew for us at the races sometimes and he rides his HP4 to the track and parks it in our pit - it gets a lot of attention - but he wouldn't dream of racing it, too worried about it getting damaged.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

My friend uses hers on track days without much worry but racing is an entirely different story. It's economies of scale really. Most of the really high end bikes never get used in the way they were designed. My MV Agusta F4 has been on the track once in it's life and only for 2 sessions for that exact reason. It's too expensive to fix if you drop it.

 

If the original poster has some more specific questions about DDC I know someone I could ask who is an expert on the subject.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Thanks for the input. I don't have really specific questions about it. I was just curious, as BMW talks a lot about it, but I sometimes read racers that say they prefer using more standard systems. So I was just curious.

Thanks !

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Thanks for the input. I don't have really specific questions about it. I was just curious, as BMW talks a lot about it, but I sometimes read racers that say they prefer using more standard systems. So I was just curious.

Thanks !

 

The 2015 S1000RR has DDC as an option

 

AT the expense of sounding like im dissing BMW off... the HP4's version is revolutionary for its time (2013) but its half assed (outdated) as of now (2 months to 2015) ...

 

its like comparing windows vista to 7 (8 is a total screwup so new systems/stuff unless proven using trial by fire, dont really have the benefit of being labeled "better" by consumers.)

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Not so sure I agree with you there. How many other bikes have an active suspension as advanced as BMW's DDC? There are others but how many of them are able to adapt to in real time 100x a second? Heck for that matter how many of them have active suspensions at all? :)

DDC is far from outdated. On the HP4 it was BMW allowing the world to see a glimpse of the future.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Not so sure I agree with you there. How many other bikes have an active suspension as advanced as BMW's DDC? There are others but how many of them are able to adapt to in real time 100x a second? Heck for that matter how many of them have active suspensions at all? :)

DDC is far from outdated. On the HP4 it was BMW allowing the world to see a glimpse of the future.

 

Judging from the Ducati 2015 product launch, they seem to have taken a step beyond BMW's DDC - if it works. The DDC reacts to what it feels is happening to the suspension without any consideration to what the rider is doing to the bike (braking hard, accelerating, turning in, etc). The Ducati system is reported to be event based (derived from their MotoGP technology) and takes into account that the rider is on the brakes hard and proactively adjusts the suspension instead of reacting to the result of hard braking. That was the gist of it that I gleaned from the announcements. If it works will it be better? Who knows - they seem to think so. I'm looking forward to the supersport shootout articles comparing the new R1, H2, BMW, and 1299 Panigale. I love all this new competition and looking forward to some good times ahead!

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Is there anything like a power commander for suspension? That is, something you can program per track to adjust itself depending on where you are?

 

EDIT: Hmm. I swear I read that a PC can change its power delivery on the fly based on the track. Am I crazy? I read too much stuff... If it doesn't do this, it totally should!

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Judging from the Ducati 2015 product launch, they seem to have taken a step beyond BMW's DDC - if it works. The DDC reacts to what it feels is happening to the suspension without any consideration to what the rider is doing to the bike (braking hard, accelerating, turning in, etc). The Ducati system is reported to be event based (derived from their MotoGP technology) and takes into account that the rider is on the brakes hard and proactively adjusts the suspension instead of reacting to the result of hard braking. That was the gist of it that I gleaned from the announcements. If it works will it be better? Who knows - they seem to think so. I'm looking forward to the supersport shootout articles comparing the new R1, H2, BMW, and 1299 Panigale. I love all this new competition and looking forward to some good times ahead!

 

 

I'm also looking forward to the shootout videos. As an Italian bike owner myself I know "if it works" is a big question. The Italians are hit and miss with new technology. Sometimes they even get really simple things wrong like the hub bearings on my MV Agusta. Sometimes however they REALLY get it right. :)

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Is there anything like a power commander for suspension? That is, something you can program per track to adjust itself depending on where you are?

 

EDIT: Hmm. I swear I read that a PC can change its power delivery on the fly based on the track. Am I crazy? I read too much stuff... If it doesn't do this, it totally should!

 

BMW has the Race Calibration Kit that allows you to go in and change TC, DDC and virtually any other setting on the bike to an amazingly anal level of granularity. That's about as close as you can get. The RCK can only make changes on the bike while it's off the track though but since DDC is a dynamic system you can probably do a lot with it. They have had that around for a while and even the first gen 2010 bikes can use it. If BMW's past performance is any measure it will be interesting to see how they respond to some of the new stuff out there.

 

I have heard Aprilia is doing something with a smartphone app that interacts with the bike in real time to tune it for specific corners. I'm not sure I would want to trust my phone that much though. Imagine the edge case of two completely opposite setup corners and your phone locking up in between them and leaving the bike poorly setup for the corner.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Hi rchase. I notice in the article you linked that the writer makes an observation that the DDC made the HP4 less willing to turn in - but doesn't say why. I find this sort of observation frustrating (the lack of 'why') and interesting all at the same time. Can you (or anyone) else have a stab at explaining why the DDC might impact turn-in?

 


"...As ktk_ace mentioned you do have to adapt to the system. I have read about riders who thought the system was a bit spooky because of how well it did it's adjustments. Eventually they adapted and learned to trust the system. I can't find the original article where the rider mentioned having to adjust to it but here's a review that gives a bit of track experience with the HP4."

 

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/motoring/motorcycle_manufacturers/bmw/9548951/BMW-HP4-review.html

 

I have heard Aprilia is doing something with a smartphone app that interacts with the bike in real time to tune it for specific corners. I'm not sure I would want to trust my phone that much though. Imagine the edge case of two completely opposite setup corners and your phone locking up in between them and leaving the bike poorly setup for the corner.

 

 

Just an observation here - relating to bluetooth or wireless apps for connecting to/adjusting bike systems. The engineer who works on my 1199S (and who has a brain the size of a small planet) does a lot of electronic tuning of various bike systems and always errs on the side of establishing a hardwire connection - he's noted that the wireless/BT variety can lead to all sorts of problems - canked-up numerics, etc. I guess this is a long-winded way of saying I'd probably wait a generation or so until the wireless/BT tech becomes more reliable..

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

In regards to the turn in and the article. I'm not really sure what the writer experienced or why he felt that way. The HP4 has two factors that would actually give it better turn in from a geometry and weight perspective. The HP4 is sitting on top of a 200 series Pirelli Supercorsa SP in the rear vs the 190 tire that the S1000RR comes stock with. It also has forged wheels which are lighter and have less rotational mass. Those two factors alone would give the HP4 a noticeable advantage over the standard S1000RR when it comes to turn in. I have yet to try an HP4 myself.

 

Suspension settings can also be adjusted on the HP4 electronically. In 2014 when I took the Superbike School at Barber one of the students (who's become a good friend of mine) had a brand new HP4 that she was riding. The BMW rally was running at the same time at Barber and Nate Kern the BMW test rider was there for the BMW rally. He found out that Betty was riding an HP4 and asked to show her the DDC system on her bike. Nate explained the system to Betty and tweaked some of her settings. We went out for another session afterwards and I noticed Betty was going a good bit faster than she was previously. She was completely thrilled with the new settings when she returned to the paddock as it seemed to transform her bike. Here's a photo I snapped of Betty and Nate while Nate was explaining how DDC worked. If you ever run into Nate at an event be sure to go up and pick his brain. He's super approachable and highly knowledgeable about all of the systems on the HP4 and S1000RR. It's drinking from the fire hose of knowledge. :)

 

14A_2317.JPG

 

The writers observations could be as little as some settings optimized for road riding that need to be changed to make the bike more optimized for the track. Just like a conventional suspension DDC has the ability to be tuned to the type of riding that you are doing. With DDC settings can be changed via the electronic menu instead of using wrenches.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Thanks rchase. I don't know if I'll ever get to pick Nate's brain as I'm down here in Australia but I'll certainly remember it if I'm ever up your way.

 

I see the DDC-optionable 2015 S1000RR will be running the 190/55 supercorsa rear. More generally, I wonder how the supercorsa tyres, whilst brilliant in the warm/dry will perform in the cold/wet. I wouldn't be that keen on riding it in the rain...and given all the TC calibration was probably done with that OE tyre, whether there'll be warranty issues if a rider chooses to change out to something a bit more street-friendly.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

A bigger tire should make it harder to turn, no? Dave Moss recently came to where we work to talk about tires and that's one of the takeaways.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

A bigger tire should make it harder to turn, no? Dave Moss recently came to where we work to talk about tires and that's one of the takeaways.

 

I could quite easily have that backwards which would explain the writers complaints on turn in. My understanding was a 200 series tire was slightly taller and lifted the rear end a bit.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Thanks rchase. I don't know if I'll ever get to pick Nate's brain as I'm down here in Australia but I'll certainly remember it if I'm ever up your way.

 

I see the DDC-optionable 2015 S1000RR will be running the 190/55 supercorsa rear. More generally, I wonder how the supercorsa tyres, whilst brilliant in the warm/dry will perform in the cold/wet. I wouldn't be that keen on riding it in the rain...and given all the TC calibration was probably done with that OE tyre, whether there'll be warranty issues if a rider chooses to change out to something a bit more street-friendly.

 

I have yet to ride the Supercorsa SP in the rain. It is a street tire and you are correct the BMW's TC system is calibrated for that tire. In rain mode I would not worry at all about grip. The electronics on the BMW are quite amazing. There's two stages to the TC system. The first stage reduces throttle input based on the lean angle sensor so the rider does not loose grip. If a loss of grip is detected the second stage of the TC system comes into play further adjusting the throttle input to prevent further loss of grip.

 

BMW does not care what kind of tires the bike is on when it comes to the warranty. My 2014 was delivered brand new from the dealer with Dunlop Q3's on it that I requested as part of my delivery.

 

I rode my S1000RR at the track in rain mode and did an experiment to get used to the electronics. I felt the bike holding me back as I ventured into the lean angle area that the bike considered out of bounds. I eventually got the courage to smash the throttle open (I would not recommend doing that until you understand the systems and are in the right mode) and you could feel the bike saving me from a bad throttle decision until the lean angle got up to the preset limit. When it did the bike quickly but evenly rolled in the power in a controlled fashion. It was much like having launch control for corner exits.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

I similarly thought a 200 rear would make the bike a bit more difficult to turn in, as opposed to a smaller section tyre like a 190. This has been one of the complaints about the Ducati Panigale, which runs a Pirelli Supercorsa SP 200 rear as OE (I ride one) and I've found that the S1000RR was quicker to steer, despite being heavier.. Still, I'm no expert...

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Yeah. To rchase's point, it's true that if the diameter is larger you will affect geometry possibly making the front turn better. But the 200s as I understand it aren't as crowned and that is what makes it a bit harder to get them over onto their sides.

 

I decided to go to the Dunlop site and look at diameters because they, unlike, Pirelli's site actually tell you this stuff. It seems their 200s are actually *smaller* than the 190s in terms of diameter. I'd be curious to know what the claimed diameters are for the SPs. In fact, the P site doesn't even list a 200 as a size for the SP. Just 180 and 190.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

It's kind of interesting the lack of information both ways. I find the Dunlop site's lack of hot pressures for the Q3 pretty frustrating. Pirelli has hot pressures listed on their site. I guess you can't have it all no matter what your tire choice is. :)

 

When it comes to turn in you can tweak the S1K platform to give you better turn in. The eccentric that the rear shock mounts to can be flipped to raise the back. Stock the bike comes in the low position. Flipping the eccentric could more than make up for a larger tire. Lighter wheels can also help with turn in.

 

I have heard that the more round profile tires gives a bike more predictable turn in. I'm looking forward to trying the 200 series Supercorsa SP's on my new bike at the track to see if I like them. I have experienced some of the Pirelli Slicks on the track but not the Supercorsa SP yet. I liked the slicks even though it worried me that with my slowish pace (relative to the owner of the bike) I would be able to keep them warm enough. :)

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Join the conversation

You can post now and register later. If you have an account, sign in now to post with your account.

Guest
Reply to this topic...

×   Pasted as rich text.   Paste as plain text instead

  Only 75 emoji are allowed.

×   Your link has been automatically embedded.   Display as a link instead

×   Your previous content has been restored.   Clear editor

×   You cannot paste images directly. Upload or insert images from URL.

Loading...

×
×
  • Create New...