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Traction Limit, Sliding, Warning

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Racing tires & premium street tires tend to have a buffer zone, where the tires slide but still the rider maintains control, whereas street tires (not premium) once they lose traction and begin to slide, lack a buffer zone, slide suddenly and quickly, and control is much more in question.

 

How does one tell a premium street tire from that which is not a premium street tire?

 

Riding track days and street and not racing makes me not want to install racing tires on my machine.

 

Is trial and error the only way to test how street tires will slide, whether it be sudden and quick, or whether they will exhibit a more gradual, more controlled slide?

 

 

 

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Buy Dunlop Q3's for the street and GPA's for the track. Problems solved :)

 

(kidding of course, although I've had enough good experience with those particular tires that I'll stick with them as long as I can)

 

I think you already guessed correctly, as I suspect if/when/how a tire slides will vary depending on the rider, and so trial and error is likely the only reliable way to know the answer for certain.

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How does one tell a premium street tire from that which is not a premium street tire?

 

 

They same way you tell any premium brand from a non premium brand.

 

I think Tires are kinda like Oil, some people swear by a particular brand, and different tests show one to be better here or there, but it all pretty much does the same job.

 

I really like the Q3's but that's mostly based on the price I get them for through the school. The performance is top notch, and I routinely pass guys on DOT Race or Full Slicks out at Streets Of Willow on them, but I'm fairly sure I could do the same on the comparable offering from Pirelli or Michelin.

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Before I improved my process for checking tire pressures, I had predictable sliding from Q3 rears so I know they have a small warning. Of course, since I was still new, I took a low side when about the 10th slide correction wasn't successful. Now that I have corrected my psi issue, I rarely feel them come out of line.

 

As mentioned above, riders have different preferences for tires. I was swapping laps with a guy who just switched to Q3's and I helped him get his best lap ever. In the end, he wanted to go back to Bridgestone because he just didn't feel comfortable on the Q3's.

 

Also like above, I run Q3's because I find them to be the best bang for the buck. Dunlop needs to keep those rebates coming.

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I generally buy the most aggressive tire that I can that's still DOT. Right now I'm running Pirelli Supercorsa SP's. Expensive and not very long wearing but amazing grip and the TC system on my bike was tuned with them as a control tire.

 

Tires are cheap in the grand scheme of things. Accident's aren't.

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I generally buy the most aggressive tire that I can that's still DOT. Right now I'm running Pirelli Supercorsa SP's. Expensive and not very long wearing but amazing grip and the TC system on my bike was tuned with them as a control tire.

 

Tires are cheap in the grand scheme of things. Accident's aren't.

 

That is what I hear a lot also. I am not arguing with that fact but posing the question of which is more beneficial, nicer tires or more track time? I believe the last time I checked, the difference in cost was more than a single track day in my area.

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I generally buy the most aggressive tire that I can that's still DOT. Right now I'm running Pirelli Supercorsa SP's. Expensive and not very long wearing but amazing grip and the TC system on my bike was tuned with them as a control tire.

 

Tires are cheap in the grand scheme of things. Accident's aren't.

Why not get SuperCorsa SCs, then?

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That's a tough one of course. I don't have to make that choice as I can easily do both.

 

Something to consider though is during all of that track time the probability of a loss of traction goes up and also the risk of not handling it correctly. If I had that tough decision to make I would choose the tires. Although as many have mentioned the Q3's offer quite good value. With the discount you can get with the school and how long they last they are a great deal. Much like getting your cake and eating it too.

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I generally buy the most aggressive tire that I can that's still DOT. Right now I'm running Pirelli Supercorsa SP's. Expensive and not very long wearing but amazing grip and the TC system on my bike was tuned with them as a control tire.

 

Tires are cheap in the grand scheme of things. Accident's aren't.

Why not get SuperCorsa SCs, then?

 

 

Both of my bikes see occasional road use. If you look at the Pirelli site the SC is rated track only.

 

http://www.pirelli.com/tire/us/en/motorcycle/sheet/diablo_supercorsa_sc.html?url=%3Fsubtype%3Dtrack%26use%3D1

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I generally buy the most aggressive tire that I can that's still DOT. Right now I'm running Pirelli Supercorsa SP's. Expensive and not very long wearing but amazing grip and the TC system on my bike was tuned with them as a control tire.

 

Tires are cheap in the grand scheme of things. Accident's aren't.

Why not get SuperCorsa SCs, then?

 

 

Both of my bikes see occasional road use. If you look at the Pirelli site the SC is rated track only.

 

http://www.pirelli.com/tire/us/en/motorcycle/sheet/diablo_supercorsa_sc.html?url=%3Fsubtype%3Dtrack%26use%3D1

 

 

Our track tire guy claims they're DOT, so I had them running on street too. I wouldn't ride them in the rain tho :-P

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I'm sure the SC's are fine on the street and I bet they rock on the track. I have a similar set of "not really a street tire" on my MV Agusta F4 the Michelin Pilot Power Supersport. They are fine for street riding. I don't like riding it in the rain anyway.

 

I may have to look into the SC's in the future for my more track oriented RR. When It rains I don't really like to ride that one anyway. I'm usually taking advantage of the more protective electronics on her street oriented twin sister.

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IMO,

 

if at a given track, rider A does 1:30-1:32 seconds lap times on a high end street tire and rider B does 1:45-1:50 lap times on a DOT race or Slick tire, Rider B is wasting his/her money,

 

I see at lot of new to the track riders come out as friends of corner workers at SoW, and they invariably get around to the question about what kind of tires to run, and my advice is always the same, Start with high end street tires, Q3's or Pilot Power 3 etc, and stick with them until the tire is actually holding you back. Skipping directly to DOT race or slick tires makes it much harder to become attuned to what the tires are telling you. Progressing through the performance of a street tire till the point you are overriding it gives you important lessons in tire feedback and what approaching the limit of traction feels like. Personally I can feel the difference in tire performance drop off on my Q3's as they near the end of their track life.

 

Accidents aren't cheap , but a few sets of street tires and some training will prevent a lot more accidents then a few sets of really expensive grippy tires will. And developing a better feel for your traction will serve you much better in the long run.

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It's also important to keep in mind the personal element to tire selection. I completely agree with what you just said however, some riders out there aren't looking to set lap records. They are just looking to have a good time in a safe environment. If a stickier tire gives them less to think about on the track and they are willing to pay the money to buy it that's a win for them even if it's a self induced Jedi mind trick. :)

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It at least used to be that the more grip you had, the narrower the band of sliding. That's one of the major reasons for all the highsides we saw in two-stroke road racing - grip went up, control went down. But there are of course more to it than that; chassis, suspension, carcass construction and rubber qualities and more have an impact. My personal experience is that a touring tyre like the Pirelli Strada had a big window for sliding, whereas a touring tyre like the Bridgestone BT020 was either gripping or not at all, no warning. Meaning some tyres are easier to read than others, even though they may be made for the same kind of riding.

 

Somebody mentioned personal preferences, and I can attest to that. Generally speaking, I cannot read Bridgestones, whereas Pirellis usually are very communicative. That's why I use Michelins :rolleyes::lol:

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Eirik,

Regarding Michelins, do you use them because they provide a buffer (traction loss warning) but just not as much as Pirellis?

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Hello, PGI!

 

I'm just an old bloke trundling around on backroads on old motorcycles most members here wouldn't consider riding at all ;) My current bike that see most use is a 1977 Kawasaki Z650 and I am fitting Michelin Pilot Active bias ply tyres after being impressed with the performance of the radials carrying the same name fitted to the Honda CB400SF in the household. I have cornered fast enough to scare myself silly and they still stuck like snot to a handkerchief, so I cannot say how they slide but they instill utter confidence.

 

In my experience, tyre behaviour vary greatly. Also, what one rider loves another will hate, which is strange when you think about it. If a tyre is good for one, you would expect it to be good for everybody. For instance, we once fitted Dunlop D208s to the Honda, possibly the worst pair of tyres I have ever ridden on, sliding all over the place with little grip and virtually no grip when cold. My son crashed the Honda when the front just washed out at maybe 20 degrees of lean on a cold day. They were also nearly bald after 1500 and 2500 miles (rear and front respectively). Yet I have found a few reports online from riders who love the D208s and call them sticky. The Pilots, for us, are better than the other tyres we've tried on that bike by a wide margin and also last much longer, so I'm hoping the old style version will be similarly good. However, if Pirelli still made their MT75 in the sizes I need that's what I would fit because they're the best old style tyres I have used.

 

Sorry for the long-winded post - it's a bad habit of mine ^_^

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Hello, PGI!

 

I'm just an old bloke trundling around on backroads on old motorcycles most members here wouldn't consider riding at all ;) My current bike that see most use is a 1977 Kawasaki Z650 and I am fitting Michelin Pilot Active bias ply tyres after being impressed with the performance of the radials carrying the same name fitted to the Honda CB400SF in the household. I have cornered fast enough to scare myself silly and they still stuck like snot to a handkerchief, so I cannot say how they slide but they instill utter confidence.

 

In my experience, tyre behaviour vary greatly. Also, what one rider loves another will hate, which is strange when you think about it. If a tyre is good for one, you would expect it to be good for everybody. For instance, we once fitted Dunlop D208s to the Honda, possibly the worst pair of tyres I have ever ridden on, sliding all over the place with little grip and virtually no grip when cold. My son crashed the Honda when the front just washed out at maybe 20 degrees of lean on a cold day. They were also nearly bald after 1500 and 2500 miles (rear and front respectively). Yet I have found a few reports online from riders who love the D208s and call them sticky. The Pilots, for us, are better than the other tyres we've tried on that bike by a wide margin and also last much longer, so I'm hoping the old style version will be similarly good. However, if Pirelli still made their MT75 in the sizes I need that's what I would fit because they're the best old style tyres I have used.

 

Sorry for the long-winded post - it's a bad habit of mine ^_^

I see. I wouldn't dare look for the traction limit either by sliding a tire on the street-the track, maybe. Interesting about the Dunlop 208s-probably the cold temperatures had a lot to do with the sliding. In California, it's never cold. I'm running Metzlers, they stick like glue, and I'll probably stay with them until further notice.

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Once you find a tyre you like and that doesn't limit you, my experience is to stick with it, so IMO you're doing the right thing about the Metzelers.

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Once you find a tyre you like and that doesn't limit you, my experience is to stick with it, so IMO you're doing the right thing about the Metzelers.

I co-sign that.

 

I have the Metzeler M7RR on my '11 S1000RR. Rain and Sport modes are fine, but as soon as I put it in Race mode, I kept slipping on corner exits as I watched everybody else pull away. Given the M7RR are not considered track tires, but the tires came through for me on a wet trackday and they had amazing handling.

 

Run whatever puts your mind at ease.

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