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Coasting = Maintenance throttle?

When using maintenance throttle through a corner is that considered coasting?

I define maintenance throttle a very fine (little) increase in throttle through the turn, until you hit your exit drive mark and push your bike back up.

 

Are we able to tell via the rear tire wear pattern, if and how much a rider is coasting?

When coasting is the weight more on the front vs rear?

 

Cheers,

Gerhard

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Coasting = Maintenance throttle?

When using maintenance throttle through a corner is that considered coasting?

 

Coasting is usually described as the absence of throttle and braking inputs. By that definition maintenance and coasting are not the same. Is constant throttle as bad as coasting? No, not always at least. In theory you can trail brake until the apex (and accelerate after), but there are long, slow turns where you travel at an almost constance pace, like carousels, to stabilize the chassis.Chicanes are another case.

 

Are we able to tell via the rear tire wear pattern, if and how much a rider is coasting?

 

I wouldn't be able, but the tire side in the picture doesn't have the orange skin peel pattern produced by the asphalt friction while accelarting. You can accelerate a bit more leaving the apex.

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Coasting usually means throttle off, no brakes. Maintenance throttle seems to mean a variety of different things to different people. To me it means enough throttle to maintain your speed.

 

And just to avoid misunderstanding, that definition does not meet the school definition of "good throttle control." Others define maintenance throttle as enough throttle to keep the suspension in the ideal operating range, which WOULD comply with the schools definition of good throttle control.

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You guys are right, below is Dave Moss comment on his Facebook page. And for me as a rookie it's eye opening....slow in is faster and safer.

The shiny band is what he is referring to aka coasting.

Now I know and gonna get back out on the track to focus on to increase corner speed control uuhhhhh.

 

 

Dave Moss

maintenance throttle is 25-30% throttle to ensure the bike is being driven forward and the forks and shock are put under duress. This would be less than 20% throttle.

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Once you crack open the throttle, continue to steadily roll it open. The rate you use depends on many factors (existing speed, length & radius of turn, etc.). You only hold the throttle position if you determine that you have been a little greedy initially or have met with the unexpected. You will slow down with a steady throttle while leaned over. Usually 'coasting' is used to tell a racer (or someone trying to lower their lap times) that they need to either be on the brakes or on the throttle harder. I call it 'just driving around' on the track. :)

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..." I call it 'just driving around' on the track." :)

 

Indeed, for other’s I may drive around the track… coasting, not breaking hard enough, using gear box to slow down, etc . lol but I’m getting better and better. Especially thanks to CSS and my 5 track days under my belt -still wet diapers, especially on fast sweepers going ~120mph (BIR T1 & T2) with ripples in the pavement uuuhaaa what a feeling and rush :-)

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Have a look at some good throttle control, the bike turns in great without throttle and then you pick up and add throttle once you've finished steering

 

Here is Yorik a UK based track instructor, listen to the engine and watch his throttle hand - great vid :)

 

 

Also, here's Simon Crafar demonstrating that you shouldn't have any throttle on until you've finished turning too.

 

https://youtu.be/-LXyNRRscc0?t=1m32s

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I'd like to revive this topic as I have add-on questions re: coasting.

Dave Moss
Dave Moss Coasting is no throttle input at any time other than at or past the apex...

Note that his definition of costing is no throttle.  Mine is no throttle, no brakes.  However, below I am using his definition.

According to Dave Moss's page on tire wear (click HERE), I have the exact same wear pattern that shows that I am "coasting" even though my riding style is as textbook point and shoot as possible.  This section on Coasting explains that it comes from braking as the rear end gets light, unloaded, and bounces around (straight line or trail braking... no difference).

Spent the morning doing some research and found a video (click HERE) from Dave Moss where he explains a way to get rid of this wear pattern.  It requires getting on the gas (30% or more) even before the turn in.  

In the comments, he says "brake first, set your entry speed then as you begin to initiate turn in or immediately prior to turn in, set the throttle to 30%"

Obviously this is different from the CSS turn-in steps as it could overload the tires to apply throttle and turn input simultaneously.  Also of note is that the bike in the video is a Ninja 300 and mine is an S1000RR so that could impact what it takes to overload a tire.

 

My add-on questions are:

1) has anybody seen this wear pattern on their tires?

2) if so, how did you "fix" this coasting problem? By shortening braking distance/time? Turning in with constant throttle as opposed to no throttle?

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Bashir, I think we should move this question to the Tech/tires section so our Dunlop tire expert can take a look at it. Would it be all right with you if I moved it your post?

 

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This sounded a little odd to me so I watched the video. Here is what jumped out at me:

The title of the video is: Ninja 300 shock causes tire wear. The first thing he says is that the bike has a stock shock, and that he is suggested this riding change as a way to compensate for that stock shock.

My interpretation of that is that you could manage the problem temporarily by adjusting your riding but what you should REALLY do is check your suspension settings (or possibly the geometry) to FIX the problem, by setting it up so that the tire is not so unloaded or bouncing at corner entries. I'd also verify your tire pressure, as I suspect that tire pressure too high could aggravate the problem. I'm not a suspension expert and you should ask someone who is - but from what Dave Moss said, it sounded like the shock was not keeping the tire planted so maybe slower rebound, and possibly softer on compression, might help to keep the rear tire from bouncing up and down. Have you had the sag set properly on your bike for your weight? Have you checked the spring rate to see if your weight is within the recommended range for it? It seems like a better plan to fix the mechanical issue rather than changing your riding style to compensate - unless, of course, you are just trying to get through a race or practice day like the rider in the video.

Also... there is a WORLD of difference between throttle at 30% on a Ninja 300 and throttle at 30% on an S1000rr! 40hp versus 200hp and the BMW only weights about 60 lbs more than the Ninja. I don't think I'd assume that piece of advice would apply the same from that bike to yours, you might get a different effect.

For the sake of discussion, what sort of effects do you think you would notice on your bike's handling if you put the throttle on 30% entering a turn?

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9 hours ago, Hotfoot said:

This sounded a little odd to me so I watched the video. Here is what jumped out at me:

The title of the video is: Ninja 300 shock causes tire wear. The first thing he says is that the bike has a stock shock, and that he is suggested this riding change as a way to compensate for that stock shock.

My interpretation of that is that you could manage the problem temporarily by adjusting your riding but what you should REALLY do is check your suspension settings (or possibly the geometry) to FIX the problem, by setting it up so that the tire is not so unloaded or bouncing at corner entries. I'd also verify your tire pressure, as I suspect that tire pressure too high could aggravate the problem. I'm not a suspension expert and you should ask someone who is - but from what Dave Moss said, it sounded like the shock was not keeping the tire planted so maybe slower rebound, and possibly softer on compression, might help to keep the rear tire from bouncing up and down. Have you had the sag set properly on your bike for your weight? Have you checked the spring rate to see if your weight is within the recommended range for it? It seems like a better plan to fix the mechanical issue rather than changing your riding style to compensate - unless, of course, you are just trying to get through a race or practice day like the rider in the video.

Also... there is a WORLD of difference between throttle at 30% on a Ninja 300 and throttle at 30% on an S1000rr! 40hp versus 200hp and the BMW only weights about 60 lbs more than the Ninja. I don't think I'd assume that piece of advice would apply the same from that bike to yours, you might get a different effect.

For the sake of discussion, what sort of effects do you think you would notice on your bike's handling if you put the throttle on 30% entering a turn?

Also keep in mind that the Ninja 300 is a parallel twin which is going to bring some engine braking as opposed to an S1000RR which has an inline-4, which comparatively speaking (eliminating electronic gadgetry) has less engine braking.

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I just watched the video (missed that). I think I heard him say "20% throttle" and "you'll still be slowing down (@ 20%)".

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it's all relative. Maintenance throttle in turn 8 at willow Springs on a SV650 is 100% :)

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On ‎8‎/‎12‎/‎2015 at 5:31 PM, Hotfoot said:

Maintenance throttle seems to mean a variety of different things to different people. To me it means enough throttle to maintain your speed.

And just to avoid misunderstanding, that definition does not meet the school definition of "good throttle control."

What would be the practical purpose of Maintenance Throttle in a cornering situation? Some that I could think of from top of head are:

1- Rider in front has become a collision hazard

2- Rider has made an error and has stopped the roll-on to tighten the line

3- Off Camber exit or Downhill corner

4- Double Apex corner just before initiating turn input for 2nd apex

Any others?

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We have a combination of topics here; the bike setup and the cornering technique.

To answer some of the bike setup questions.  Yes the sag is set at 33mm front and 35mm rear.  I have a 2011 that's a little front heavy so I raised the fork height in order to shift some weight rearward; otherwise there was too much weight in front and could only get a max of 28 at max preload.  My forks and shocks have been re-valved as the stock forks would bounce up and down twice even at max rebound and compression settings.  The front springs are at 0.95 kg/mm.  Even though I feel that the hydraulics and springs are now adequate for my weight, speed and riding ability, there certainly could be some improvement to my pressures, compression and rebound settings.

I personally have always favoured shutting off the throttle to steer the bike, then getting back on to introduce maintenance throttle, until corner exit.  It works for most corners except the special ones where constant throttle may be better.

Yes, every bike is different and the throttle roll on % for maintenance throttle can be different even for different gears...

Jaybird, based on the examples you gave, did you mean to ask about the "practical purposes of holding the throttle steady"?  Or did I misunderstand the question.

For me, there is a certain feeling of balance and grip that comes with maintenance throttle, when the right amount is applied.  Anything more or less takes you off your line.

I am in the process of swapping these Metzeler M7RR for some Dunlop slicks so my symptoms of improper setup/riding could be different soon.

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Im glad you pointed out that we're talking about two separate topics. In Twist 2 there is plenty discussion about how good application of throttle control influences suspension, worth a look. Also this recent thread is worth a look and on topic in relation to technique:

Do you agree with Hotfoot's definition and caveat on maintenance throttle?

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3 hours ago, Hotfoot said:

Riding a curved on-ramp at the speed limit with a cop behind you. :)

I got a laugh out of that one. :-)

To add a bit of twisted humor: how would you know the speed accurately since the speedometer becomes inaccurate when leaned over?

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On 13/08/2015 at 2:08 AM, Spaghetti said:

Is constant throttle as bad as coasting? No, not always at least.

This caught my attention... why do you call coasting bad? It made me curious because coasting into corners has been one of my preferred corner entry methods for a long time. 

Consider what happens when you turn into a corner and don't touch the throttle - what would happen to your line? Would that ever be useful to you?

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1 hour ago, mugget said:

This caught my attention... why do you call coasting bad? It made me curious because coasting into corners has been one of my preferred corner entry methods for a long time. 

Consider what happens when you turn into a corner and don't touch the throttle - what would happen to your line? Would that ever be useful to you?

Bad is probably a misnomer, but you certainly lose out on the benefits of being on the throttle. Can you name them?

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Any forum content discussing charging turns?  This discussion may touch on the topic of charging.  It's hard to find a good explanation of what charging turns means.  Reading between the lines it seems charging means:

a) chopping the throttle rather than rolling off

b ) coasting

c) hard braking then sudden release just before turning.

 

Instead do this:

a) roll off the throttle, or roll off some and maintain a speed, then complete the full roll off

b ) hard braking then gradual release to adjust entry turn speed using your sense of speed

Best,

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1 hour ago, PGI said:

Any forum content discussing charging turns?  This discussion may touch on the topic of charging.  It's hard to find a good explanation of what charging turns means.  Reading between the lines it seems charging means:

a) chopping the throttle rather than rolling off

b ) coasting

c) hard braking then sudden release just before turning.

 

Instead do this:

a) roll off the throttle, or roll off some and maintain a speed, then complete the full roll off

b ) hard braking then gradual release to adjust entry turn speed using your sense of speed

Best,

Found something from Lnewqban regarding charging, and I'll paraphrase it: You know you are charging your turns when you discover you scrubbed off too much speed and are now in the turn at a speed you know is too slow.  You lost your sense of speed.  

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On 6/15/2017 at 1:06 AM, Jaybird180 said:

Bad is probably a misnomer, but you certainly lose out on the benefits of being on the throttle. Can you name them?

Hhmmm... unless it's a fast corner or a slow entry into a faster corner, I tend to have the throttle closed when coming into a corner. ;)

 

PGI - Yes I think that definition of charging a corner is pretty spot on. 

I don't think it has so much to do with chopping the throttle or abrupt brake control (they are riding errors in their own right). 

 

The reason I made that comment about coasting into corners is that it's absolutely the safest way I've found to build confidence and work up to a higher corner entry speed. When you realise what the biggest danger is you'll probably agree that coasting is safe... think about every single racing crash you've seen where they've gone down on corner entry (one rider on their own, without being skittled by another). It all has to do with the front brake! The front locks up, and they go down! Therefore if you don't touch the front brake you completely eliminate that risk. It is also a good exercise to help refine your sense of speed, much like the "no brake" drills at the school. As we were told - if you can't set your speed within 300 metres of straight you have no hope of doing it within 100m with brakes.

The other big benefit to being comfortable with coasting is when you're riding double apex corners or want to take a wide/late turn-in and still be able to tighten your line and make your apex. What happens if you're riding in a circle with constant throttle, then roll off the throttle..? Your line will tighten - exactly the same as when you coast into a turn. In combination with the Hook Turn this can open up so many line choices, like being able to ride your 1000 on a line that only 300's would otherwise ride!

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What you do with the throttle on corner entry might differ from what you do with it after the turning has been done. This is the part that we call, "mid-corner". Mid-corner is where the Throttle Control rule applies.

I hear you on the building confidence thing. I did this myself for quite a long time. But is it possible that this has problems of it's own?

There is something in learning called, "The Law of Primacy" which means that we revert back to what we learn first and learn best. As a rider begins to improve and speed comes on, is coasting mid-corner safer than using .1- .2g of throttle?

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Seems like we have crossed wires here... The point I am getting at is that there is no reason to view coasting as something bad or undesirable. In fact unless someone is an exceptionally skilled rider and is either using brake or throttle all of the time, then they have to be coasting to some degree!

Why is it that people tend to avoid coasting, why does it make them feel uncomfortable?

Thinking back to before I had any type of training, I definitely felt uncomfortable when coasting - and this was wholly due to the fact that I didn't have a clear understanding of correct throttle use and as such my line choice left a lot to be desired (hugging the curb, riding constant radius lines, etc.) Now the way I ride has changed drastically. I never ride on a constant radius line, therefore my steering input is only completed moments before I have identified my exit point, know that I am going to hit it and begin to open up the throttle. If I am "cruising" around the track, then my entire steering input is definitely completed while I am coasting. As I am getting more comfortable with higher corner entry speeds I am gradually adding trail braking - but still finish the majority of the steering input while coasting. Eventually I hope to be able to completely eliminate coasting, but that will be quite a big step and is still a ways off. 

Maybe we are thinking of vastly different riding levels, but to me there is simply no option between coasting or using throttle mid-corner. That is because the line choices available mean that there is no in-between, effectively it becomes possible to late apex every corner so that you're ready for throttle as soon as turn-in is complete.

Edited to add > Coasting is not always a problem, it can be a solution... depending on how you use it. 

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