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rchase

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I watched both videos, your corrections are not that bad but it's true that you drift towards the inside apex on many turns. I have the same problem, I think we all agree here that the entry mark is key to a good corner line. Then for regular fast corners I would do what I described in the previous posts.

 

Now, for those long fast corners where you can't see the exit target on the kerb: I noticed the long left is marked as a double corner in your map: T14, T15. I agree with the map (btw, I don't see the experienced rider in your second video riding it as a double apex), I would approach it as two corners and thus would need two entry marks. The second will be on the outside kerb coinciding with he T14 exit. But there is still the problem of not seeing the T14 exit for a while. In that case I would use the middle of the track as my line until the exit mark is your view (I think that's what the other experienced rider is doing in the video).

 

Anyway, this is all easier said than done. I think the most effective is to look for a racer or experienced rider and ask him to pick you up, slow down your pace, and follow his lines.

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Yeah. I think the key is reference points. Not always useful for taking action but useful for identifying the location. The two tar snakes are great for position anyway. I always associated reference points with actions of turning or other things rather than just to note position. Position can be very helpful as well.

 

It's important to note that that double apex turn is a car line. The car line and the bike line on that track are somewhat different because of the differences in car technique and bike technique. A good place to note the differences is the exit of turn 3 where there's a brake point before you enter Turn 4. That's right in the middle of a transition on a bike and not a good place to use the brakes. I typically brake lightly before the entry of Turn 2. And even then I sometimes overdo it leaving me entering 4 at 40mph when it can be done much faster.

 

Several Advanced riders and racers treat 14 and 15 as one corner. I may try riding the car line just to see what that does for me but ultimately the fastest way through on a bike is likely the line that the other guys are using. Splitting it into two turns may allow me to find some reference points in addition to some of the ones I have spotted reviewing the video after all the helpful feedback here. There's a big hill, A few TI, TO markers for the cars and some variations in the fencing that were virtually invisible to me because I was often obsessing about my tach while riding.

 

VIdeo is quite helpful at times after the fact. I may try to leverage this a bit while at the track as well as some of my data off the datalogger. Sort of the modern approach of the school's paper and pencil and thinking during the break. With the data and the video I can see exactly what I did and make plans on how to correct some things in real time. Its also helpful too that the video makes the riding seem much slower than when you are on the bike dealing with the sensory overload. Reviewing data like slip rate can also reassure me that I have more than enough traction available. Something I still struggle with because of a lack of experience.

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A motorcycle might not be able to handle a double apex like a car because of the less traction at the point of the second steering input after the acceleration. So keeping the line at the center of the long turn allows riders to manage traction better and control speed as far as tires allow.

 

This is one of the most technical tracks I've seen, I'd like to ride it one day.

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Yeah. That's what I was thinking. The cornering forces just would not allow the bike to turn. If I do decide to "try" the car line it will be at a cautious speed so I don't discover the "why" without any options on the table for a recovery.

 

The Track is Atlanta Motorsports Park. http://www.atlantamotorsportspark.com/ The Track was designed by Hermann Tilke who is a pretty well known F1 track designer. It's a tight track and the videos don't do the elevation changes justice. It's challenging enough that most of the track day providers in my area have visited the track but won't operate there. Here's a photo during a morning track walk that shows the elevation at the track.

 

IMG_0659.JPG

 

If anyone is interested in riding there let me know. The small track day org that I ride with regularly does days there but some of them are not officially listed on the schedule. I would be glad to get you guys information and perhaps be able to enjoy meeting and riding with you. I'm at every single day there. :)

 

Of course for some people even a tight technical track like this is easy for them. Here's a photo of Nate Kern "backing it in" to turn one on his last seasons HP4. The photo is nothing to how impressive it looked and sounded in person. After turn one he typically is on the rear tire all the way to the entry of turn 2.

 

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I see, I thought I was looking at Road Atlanta. You guys are spoiled, two great tracks that close.

I'll see if my club in NYC is willing to trailer bikes. Else the only option for me is to rent a bike there.

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Road Atlanta is no slouch. It's a much faster track than AMP. Despite being so close I have only been to Road Atlanta once. Probably need to do something about that next season! :)

 

One of the tracks I want to ride is Laguna Seca. And the school operates there too! The Corkscrew just looks like that "ultimate corner".

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The Corkscrew just looks like that "ultimate corner".

Maybe it's just me but I have ridden Laguna Seca 3 or 4 times with the School and the corkscrew is over as soon as you enter it. It looks great on TV but to me it is snap left - snap right and you're on to Rainey Curve.
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How soon we forget the theme of this thread and my preference in corner types. I really enjoy the thrill of corners just like that one.

 

If I ever designed a track it would be a combination of technical corners and tire blistering high speed straights. Perhaps some chicanes and a few medium corners to keep from wearing people out too much. In fact. if you figured out a way to extend all the straight bits at Barber that would be just about the perfect design. 195mph approaching the brake marker for Turn 1 sounds pretty fun to me.

 

I probably won't be designing a track in this lifetime at least. I suppose I should focus my energies to adapting myself to those long corners that seem to baffle me so much. :)

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Here's a question.

 

I was watching some onboard footage of mine and comparing it to another riders. In long corners my turn technique tends to be to slowly feed in the turn as the bike needs more turning force. It's a constant thing during the corner tightening towards the end with more lean angle. The other rider commits to max lean right away with seemingly no adjustment at all. This is obviously just rider error on my part. My theory on the reason why I do this is because I don't have enough information to quick turn in the corner. I'm never quite sure the way the bike will react and there's probably a slew of SR's about getting it wrong and having to make a big correction.

 

So my question is... What's an intelligent way to approach increasing flick rate and committing to higher lean angles without ending up in a panic situation? Or. Is this just a symptom of the earlier discussion of a lack of reference points?

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So my question is... What's an intelligent way to approach increasing flick rate and committing to higher lean angles without ending up in a panic situation?

 

Find a corner (or several) that you are very comfortable with and practice there.

 

Say you use a "too-high quick turn rate" in a corner.

- What would be the outcome of this?

- Would you be able to do something immediately that 'fixes' this in that corner?

- Which things wouldn't you be able to 'fix'?

 

Here's something for you to consider:

When I rode my YZF600R (back 15 years ago), I would - on a warm track with warmed up road tires (sport tires of the day) - flick the bike so hard that I used my knee and muscles in my thigh to act as a spring to stop the flick*. I never ever lost traction from this. I never dropped the bike from this.

 

*) Saner people than me advised me politely that this was probably not the best approach and I should take it a little bit more easy :)

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In my situation with a bike that's super eager to turn overdoing it would probably land me right up on the curbing and potentially to the inside of it. You probably won't finding me "over flicking" the bike anytime soon.

 

I'm not sure if the flick rate issue is a problem on it's own or a result of the visual confusion mentioned previously. Logically it makes sense to fix the visual issue first. In shorter corners while my turn rate is not the fastest out there it's not as much of an issue as it is in the longer turns. Maybe with more reference points it won't be a problem anymore.

 

I really appreciate the insight and experience you shared KHP. I'll probably work on my flick rate for some of the shorter corners I'm already 100% comfortable with first. There's always room to improve everything.

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In my situation with a bike that's super eager to turn overdoing it would probably land me right up on the curbing and potentially to the inside of it. You probably won't finding me "over flicking" the bike anytime soon.

 

I'm not sure if the flick rate issue is a problem on it's own or a result of the visual confusion mentioned previously. Logically it makes sense to fix the visual issue first. In shorter corners while my turn rate is not the fastest out there it's not as much of an issue as it is in the longer turns. Maybe with more reference points it won't be a problem anymore.

 

I agree, a "too fast" turn-in will make your bike point towards the inside curbing and potentially to the inside of it too.

- If that happens, what can you do to compensate?

- If you can safely, consistently and comfortably increase your turn rate by some amount, what does that mean to your choice of line?

- If you have a quicker turn-in, what does that imply to your needed lean angle and TP?

 

 

Your turn-in rate and the visual feeling of being "lost" are separate issues. You can choose to work on them as you like, but my preference would be on the visual side first. (I need to work on both as well as carrying more lean and speed in the corners).

 

Yeah. I think the key is reference points. Not always useful for taking action but useful for identifying the location. The two tar snakes are great for position anyway. I always associated reference points with actions of turning or other things rather than just to note position. Position can be very helpful as well.

 

You answered your own question back up a few posts. Reference Points are references - for "something" in time and space/place. They tell you where you are supposed to be on the track and what you (potentially) should be doing there. If you go into a very long turn like the one on AMP, and you don't have any RPs between your TP and the apex, how would you know if you made the right line?

 

Suppose you have just nailed that T13-T14-T15 turn on AMP. You know exactly where to turn, which line to take, etc. What would that do to your confidence?

- Now what would it require you to nail that turn? A TP for sure. An Apex for sure. But the track layout and distance between the TP and the Apex makes it hard or impossible to see the Apex from the approach to the TP. But suppose you had an RP between the TP and Apex that is easy for you to see from the approach to the TP, which is directly on the line to the Apex. What would that do to your confidence in turning and getting back on the gas?

 

Suppose you need two or three RPs between the TP and the Apex. Would that be a problem?

 

Take a look at Twist-I, Chapter Four: What You See. It's all about reference points.

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Another way to think about the quick turn is that we work on the widest patch of the tire. I'm still not completely over the loss of stability that a quick turn could cause to the bike myself, but pushing the bike from up straight to a 30 degree lean angle works on the widest and most reliable tire patch. We crash when we input braking, throttle or steering on a higher lean angle, not when the bike is up.

Same thing when flicking the bike from one side to the other, you're actually releasing lots of stress on the tire to go up straight than to the opposite side.

 

Perhaps one way to wrap our mind around this is: all-in until 30 degrees lean, then smooth to 40 degrees (in one continuous input).

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I wanted to report back. The feedback and suggestions I got here were quite useful. I had an opportunity to face my "arch nemesis" corner armed with a bit more understanding. While it's yet to become my best friend It no longer bothers me as much as it has in the past.

 

Here's a few of the things I did

 

  • on my first lap out I made it a point to identify some visual references that could tell me my position in the corner. These visual references were not places I took action but they provided me information about where I was. I did not focus my attention on them but kept my view wide so I noticed them as I went by.

 

  • I did a bit of reading before I went to the track and realized to run out of revs in 3rd gear on a stock RR I would have to be traveling at least 134mph. The wind resistance alone at that speed with me hanging off the side would be substantial enough to notice.

 

  • I decided that no matter what in that corner none of the instruments exist at all. Looking down and seeing the tach climbing provided no useful information at all and only made me tense. This worked quite well for me and I ended up only looking down at the gear indicator a couple of times (not in that corner). I already ignore the speedometer pretty well already.

 

These things worked very well and I developed much more of a comfort zone which helped me a lot. Then the most interesting thing happened to me. I found myself out on the track riding without the usual "noise" in my mind. I had navigated some of the most technical corners of the track without my usual checklist of things that I normally think about. I suddenly had that "have I forgotten something" feeling. Yes. I did forget something. I forgot to clutter my mind with distractions and doubt. Hopefully in the future I can continue to forget about that. It's a much more enjoyable ride without it.

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  • 3 weeks later...

rchase- I didn't see a resolution, but it seems that you leave several hints that your geometry may be too steep for your style or your front end may be too soft, or your rear end may even be not running true (also check your swingarm for damage or overstress).

 

Good luck with your long sweepers.

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Thanks for this helpful comment. The timing of course could not be any more perfect.

 

Last Sunday I did a track day with lots of long sweepers on a track I had never ridden before. I was also riding my street RR that on stock suspension and standard wheels. For one reason or another I did just fine on the stock bike even though I expected it to be a challenge. I learned the track just fine after a session and the heavier wheels and standard suspension were non issues. I still don't "like" long sweepers but I had a lot of fun on this track and experienced very few problems other than having to figure out the line all by myself (coaches were busy and focused on other riders).

 

While I don't have any real data either way that the geometry on my other bike might not be optimal for my current style that's certainly worth more looking into. The only "back to back" testing I have ever done with both bikes was when I was test riding the 2nd one at the track before I bought it. I got off of my stock street bike and rode the new one which was equipped with light weight wheels and upgraded suspension having been owned by a much more skilled and experienced rider. It was on a track with very sharp technical corners and the new bike made the street bike seem like it handled like a truck. The turn in for both bikes is very different and it's worth exploring the differences more. I'll probably find a track with a combination of tight stuff and sweepers and ride both to compare.

 

While I probably won't make any changes to the track bike until I completely understand the differences and what the changes might do to affect the bike (hint: I'm a suspension idiot). Despite its aggressive turn in it's not unstable and it's sharper lighter handling comes in handy on tight technical tracks. Quite honestly in the tight stuff it's lighter feeling than some 600's I have ridden which is amazing.

 

It's interesting why I was riding my street bike rather than my much better equipped bike at this track day. I did a day at Barber a week prior in absolutely glorious 68 degree weather (it's ok if you all hate me it was worth it). Towards the end of the day I had a realization that my tires were completely heat cycled and somehow averted an accident when the rear tire lost traction during a ham fisted mid corner downshift. When it regained traction it gave that classic "snap" that attempted to launch me out of the seat. I'm glad it happened and I'm glad it did not result in a crash. I learned an incredible amount of stuff in a fraction of a second.

 

The tires were a full season old and I should have known better! I got caught up in the fact that it was wonderful late season weather and I wanted to get out and ride a few times before the season ended. One more track day won't hurt right? And another and another. I think you get the idea. New tires are already on order.

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