How Much Weight On The Seat?

[Jaybird180]

Logic is good but has limitations. When I signed up for Logic class, I (the Engineering freshman) was astonished to learn that I had to walk over to the University’s Philosophy building to enroll!

Of the things you stated above that I hung on is about research process. You also made a point about observer bias. There is also the consideration of observer perspective. I’m certain you’ve heard the story of 3 people who all witnessed the same traffic accident standing on different corners of the intersection- in some ways they each have an occluded view. The two drivers each have opposing agendas to advance their right-of-way in the occurrence.

Thats all I have to say about that. I have my own questions and concerns about my path toward riding improvement. And I’m glad to be here.

[Jaybird180]

The footnote to my above post is that I do think that Ienatsch comes with an amount of communication imprecision.

His record vs mine, I’d be a fool to call him wrong. I’d also be disingenuous to call him right.

[jcw]

10 hours ago, Jaybird180 said:

...But I keep at it; I keep trying to sort through to find usable morsels of truth, what I can use and what might be better reserved for another time. It's a double-edged sword trait.

I'm grateful for all of it.

That’s all I’m trying to do, too.

 

but all this talk of logic and reasoning is giving me a headache.

let me ask you something. how does one know who is right and who is wrong?

If mathematics cannot fully explain the way a motorcycle steers, what makes someone so sure they are right and others are wrong?

 

I agree that much of the internet is a big wasteland of misinformation. I am a professional by training and (like, you) spent some considerable time in secondary education after high school (13years for me, yikes!). I am not unfamiliar with textbooks and classroom and learning. Last 5 years were in hands on training learning my craft, I am not unfamiliar with the physical aspect of acquiring new skills.

While I would no sooner tell someone to go to any internet forum for information I trained in, I realize that if carefully selected, there IS a place to look for this information.

 

I am also grateful for any information I can glean. Just wish it wasn’t so shrouded in mystery sometimes.

[jcw]

On a more practical note, 60 degree weather here was a nice change of pace.

another hour or so of riding a loop that I use to practice, I find myself getting comfortable after crashing last year a couple times at the track and recovering from injury (broken clavicle).

i focused on a stable strong body position (one cheek off, torso hips open slightly) to make my countersteering input (getting low on the tank helps me to push out not down). Then, as I enter the turn heading to the apex, I slowly drop my elbow and head into position as I clip the “apex.” Remembering to pick up the throttle as soon as i can see my exit point. The faster and wider my vision is, the earlier I can apply the throttle. 

For me, it takes a conscious effort to sit my backside down through the corner but I find that sitting back a bit with about that fist between me and the tank helped me relax and ride the bike rather than “fight” it.

[Jaybird180]

On 4/11/2018 at 10:16 PM, jcw said:

On a more practical note, 60 degree weather here was a nice change of pace.

another hour or so of riding a loop that I use to practice, I find myself getting comfortable after crashing last year a couple times at the track and recovering from injury (broken clavicle).

i focused on a stable strong body position (one cheek off, torso hips open slightly) to make my countersteering input (getting low on the tank helps me to push out not down). Then, as I enter the turn heading to the apex, I slowly drop my elbow and head into position as I clip the “apex.” Remembering to pick up the throttle as soon as i can see my exit point. The faster and wider my vision is, the earlier I can apply the throttle. 

For me, it takes a conscious effort to sit my backside down through the corner but I find that sitting back a bit with about that fist between me and the tank helped me relax and ride the bike rather than “fight” it.

I've seen a lot of training material suggesting that 1/2 cheek is the goal, however I have observed recently that riders are tending to hang off by as much as 1-3/4s cheek's worth. I think this brings in your question of 'who's right and who's wrong' in that it isn't sufficient to know what to do, but also to understand why and when such actions are appropriate.

[Hotfoot]

On ‎4‎/‎16‎/‎2018 at 2:04 PM, Jaybird180 said:

I've seen a lot of training material suggesting that 1/2 cheek is the goal, however I have observed recently that riders are tending to hang off by as much as 1-3/4s cheek's worth. I think this brings in your question of 'who's right and who's wrong' in that it isn't sufficient to know what to do, but also to understand why and when such actions are appropriate.

This particular item, in my opinion, is a great example of something that is not a matter of who is right and wrong as much as what works for one rider versus another, depending on that riders bike and their physical build and flexibility.

Different bikes have different rider handlebar heights and distance from the seat, different shaped tanks, different rearset heights and configurations, etc. and that all impacts how the rider can hang on, and hang off. Even if you just narrow it down to sportbikes, you can look at a Ducati gas tank versus a Yamaha gas tank and see that rider lock on will not be the same from one to the other. And of course, a 6'3" 180 lb rider would fit on a bike differently than a 5'1" 180 lb rider.

You can go to any track day and see LOTS of riders hanging their butt WAYY off the seat, even riders who are riding at a slow pace in the beginner group. Very often you will ALSO see those riders propping themselves up with their inside arm, and/or crossing their head and upper body BACK over the tank to the other side, so they really aren't shifting any weight to the inside after all. (OK, gallery, what is wrong with propping yourself up with the inside arm?). Some riders are strong enough and flexible enough (and tall enough!) to find a position where they hang off more than half their butt, without causing any unwanted bar input, unstable lower body lock, or excess fatigue - but for MOST riders, half a butt cheek is a much better starting point to create a stable, functional and effective body position. 

At the school we have a great off track exercise where we put a rider on a bike and work with them one-on-one to find a body position that works for them, along with educating them along the way about what is important about body position - what is the point of hanging off, how to do it (if desired), and how to get a good, comfortable, solid position that works, and then practice it. Just like you say above - knowing not only what to do, but also understanding why.  

 

[Jaybird180]

On ‎4‎/‎17‎/‎2018 at 7:52 PM, Hotfoot said:

This particular item, in my opinion, is a great example of something that is not a matter of who is right and wrong as much as what works for one rider versus another, depending on that riders bike and their physical build and flexibility.

Different bikes have different rider handlebar heights and distance from the seat, different shaped tanks, different rearset heights and configurations, etc. and that all impacts how the rider can hang on, and hang off. Even if you just narrow it down to sportbikes, you can look at a Ducati gas tank versus a Yamaha gas tank and see that rider lock on will not be the same from one to the other. And of course, a 6'3" 180 lb rider would fit on a bike differently than a 5'1" 180 lb rider.

You can go to any track day and see LOTS of riders hanging their butt WAYY off the seat, even riders who are riding at a slow pace in the beginner group. Very often you will ALSO see those riders propping themselves up with their inside arm, and/or crossing their head and upper body BACK over the tank to the other side, so they really aren't shifting any weight to the inside after all. (OK, gallery, what is wrong with propping yourself up with the inside arm?). Some riders are strong enough and flexible enough (and tall enough!) to find a position where they hang off more than half their butt, without causing any unwanted bar input, unstable lower body lock, or excess fatigue - but for MOST riders, half a butt cheek is a much better starting point to create a stable, functional and effective body position. 

At the school we have a great off track exercise where we put a rider on a bike and work with them one-on-one to find a body position that works for them, along with educating them along the way about what is important about body position - what is the point of hanging off, how to do it (if desired), and how to get a good, comfortable, solid position that works, and then practice it. Just like you say above - knowing not only what to do, but also understanding why.  

 

Makes it difficult for the front tire to follow the contour of the road.

[AdamZisa]

Loved this read and thread!!! I admire how the OP was willing to experiment and how Dylan provided resources. As stated, there exists so much information and it is difficult to decipher what is right, what COULD be right, and what is total opinion. 

Awesome read and I love that no one was mean. 

Side note: I have been reading Zen and The Art of Motorcycle Maintenance (not a text to do with cornering or riding) and it was cool to see the logic and philosophy stuff mentioned. You gotta think before you ride, during your ride, and after you ride to really get this stuff...and actually ride the bike!  

[Johnno down under]

I’ve always wondered what the effect of the no BSbike would be if the fixed bars were set at or lower down, and perhaps slightly forward of the regular bars. This set up would be more akin to a normal riding position, and leverage. 

In my hard out riding I pull the inside bar outwards, more than push a countersteer. It is a countersteer, but is focused more on setting my weight and leverage consistently post initiating countersteer effort. And yes I am loose on the bars. On my old 1980s suspensioned sports commuter bike, allowing the front to wriggle and jump is crucial to maintaining control.

On a gsxr900rf I barely move or countersteer at all, all I need do is turn my head to follow the vanishing point of a corner, and tense my gut left or right. The pace I achieve doing just this seems phenomenal and is substantially greater than can be achieved on my gsx400x. The riding position is the biggest difference. The 900cc ought to initiate corners slower due to a significantly longer wheelbase, and higher mass, but the more upright seating position of the 150kg 400cc slows it down significantly. But then again I’m super confident on the 400 at its limits and beyond because I’ve got over a million Km on it, and it has immense breaking ability.

despite all this, Keith Codes point about accuracy via countersteering is well made and very useful. If a person doesn’t understand countersteering they will end up hurt.

[Dylan Code]

I can't tell if you are serious or joking with this post. Tensing your gut to steer the motorcycle? Turning your head to steer it? Pull the inside bar outwards?

Regarding you comment about the No BS bike, the further you are from the center of mass of an object, the more leverage one has on it. The No BS bars are quite high, therefore have more leverage and still can't get the bike steered with any efficiency.