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Why 1000Cc Vs. 600Cc On Training On The Track?

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tmckeen    1

Rider trumps machinery every time, which is why a S1000 can easily be out matched by a Ninja 250,

 

Bikes like the 9T only suffer from lack of ground clearance.

 

I've also heard from a reliable source that the XSR 900 is downright scary to ride, and more prone to wheelies than a 450 Dirtbike

 

I kind of think the big 4 have a gentleman's agreement to leave the 600's be, as long as no one steps up and revitalizes their hardware they can maintain the status quo with just BNG every year. the upside to that is that I have a 10 year span of hardware that's interchangeable

 

They also seem to be more interested in more street based hardware than race, they only need to sell enough Race replica bikes for homologation

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rchase    5

Absolutely. Riders who are able to minimize their disadvantages in power and maximize the strengths of their bikes can have a lot of fun with riders on the more powerful bikes. The problem of course is being in the right place at the right time.

 

This little fellow on the 250 is a MotoAmerica racer and a way better rider than I will ever be. He's having a peek beyond the S1000RR in his way. He decided to hang back a bit because after that corner the track opens up and there's no way he could keep up with a 200hp+ bike. He ended up passing me though later on in the turns and despite my power I never caught back up. Not that I was really trying though. :)

 

N2_BARBER_NOV_20151128_6362.jpg

 

Personally I view the differences in bikes as part of the fun of them. The rider on the 250 know's that there aren't many bikes that can get by mid corner. The rider on the 200hp+ 1L bike knows that if there's open pavement you aren't getting by unless they let you. Each of these is rather fun in their own way. :)

 

You may be onto something with the big 4 and the 600's. Other manufacturers aren't really part of that agreement however and there's still not been a lot of movement in that market segment. I'll be the first one to admit that in the analog world the 600 was the perfect balance of weight and power. The world has changed a LOT in the past few years.

 

I have seen the debates on "the best bike" before and have always seen the holes in the logic. It's truly impossible to test the "best bike" with a huge wildcard such as the rider and the track even if you don't factor in conditions and tires. In order to make an argument either way you have to look at only a small part of the picture. A good example of this is the recent 2016 MCN review of the cutting edge Superbikes. A new for 2015 bike that finished 1st last year in the same test is 2nd this year yet had lap times slower than the bike that finished 3rd for this years test. Uhm yea never mind the fact that this bike is faster this one is better even though we are complaining about things that directly affect it's overall rating. I'm just glad my name is not on the by line of the article dealing with unhappy owners questioning my objectivity. :)

 

The names of the bikes have been left out to protect the innocent and keep us all friends. :)

 

All of the manufacturers have their different area of interest. The Japanese bikes are all about performance and price. BMW's about making a bike that's great quality and is able to be enjoyed anywhere with some cool engineering thrown in too. Harley Davidson has their own unique timeless perspective which honestly you have to ride to understand. The Italians are all about design and making bikes that excite all of the senses. I own a few of all of these bikes and appreciate them all. Every one of them (including the Harley) bring something to the table that the others don't have.

 

If anything we should celebrate the differences rather than complain about them. It gives us way more options to enjoy.

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The F800 may not be a "real sportsbike" but put one of the school's coaches on one and you might swear it is. A few years ago at Barber I saw Dylan enter the track with an F800 and I followed him for a bit to watch his riding. He effortlessly left me in the dust and did not even realize I was behind him. It was quite amazing to see.

 

How about the Nine T? The Nine T has the front end and brakes straight off of the RR. Here's a photo of Nate racing his Nine T leaving purpose built race bikes like Panigale's in the dust. Nate refers to the Nine T as a "Starbucks cruiser". BMW lists the bike in the Heritage section of their website.

 

13653417_10157389656155556_9506475603105

 

Here's a photo of the bike before it's paint job during it's first race.

 

IMG17341.JPG

 

While these bikes may not be "real sportbikes" in the classical sense they are still quite capable machines. It's important to keep in mind that the bodywork and shape of "real sportbikes" is a recent evolution within the past 20 years. While the design might provide a bit of aerodynamics and some better lock on points for the rider this design element is not the most important aspect. As Nate has demonstrated during many races a good rider can overcome design limitations of nearly any motorcycle. Including a bike never intended to go racing.

 

Interesting design. Looks somewhat like a sport cruiser.

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rchase    5

 

Interesting design. Looks somewhat like a sport cruiser.

 

 

The Nine T is a retro throw back to the original BMW R90.

 

6.jpg

 

This is the Nine T stock.

 

02-1_boxer_360_1920px_02.jpg

 

Nate's bike since it's being used to race has a custom HP paint scheme. It's the same colors you will see on the HP2 and HP4. It looks a bit sportier as a result. The belly pan you see on the bike is not stock and is only installed to satisfy oil catch pan regulations. Another interesting thing is the bike from the factory comes with wire wheels and tube tires. Nobody in their right mind would race on that so wheel's obviously have been changed to make things work on the track. :)

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Interesting design. Looks somewhat like a sport cruiser.

 

 

The Nine T is a retro throw back to the original BMW R90.

 

6.jpg

 

This is the Nine T stock.

 

02-1_boxer_360_1920px_02.jpg

 

Nate's bike since it's being used to race has a custom HP paint scheme. It's the same colors you will see on the HP2 and HP4. It looks a bit sportier as a result. The belly pan you see on the bike is not stock and is only installed to satisfy oil catch pan regulations. Another interesting thing is the bike from the factory comes with wire wheels and tube tires. Nobody in their right mind would race on that so wheel's obviously have been changed to make things work on the track. :)

 

 

 

Oh nicccccce !

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Having completed Level 1 & 2 now I totally understand why CSS uses the S1000RR. That bike is absolutely perfect for training on the track. I mean it handles so well, sticky Q3s' and that quick shifter is completely amazing. I wasn't used to it because all of my bikes were clutch/gears but the S1000RR has that quick shifter which allows you to focus on all things you need to keep your drive, line and hitting all your marks. Hats off to CSS for selecting such a great machine. Honestly, now I'm really tempted to have one in my garage? :blink:

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rchase    5

Having completed Level 1 & 2 now I totally understand why CSS uses the S1000RR. That bike is absolutely perfect for training on the track. I mean it handles so well, sticky Q3s' and that quick shifter is completely amazing. I wasn't used to it because all of my bikes were clutch/gears but the S1000RR has that quick shifter which allows you to focus on all things you need to keep your drive, line and hitting all your marks. Hats off to CSS for selecting such a great machine. Honestly, now I'm really tempted to have one in my garage? :blink:

 

Just watch out. I ended up with two of them much the same way. Not that I'm complaining at all. One of the best motorcycles I have ever ridden. :)

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Having completed Level 1 & 2 now I totally understand why CSS uses the S1000RR. That bike is absolutely perfect for training on the track. I mean it handles so well, sticky Q3s' and that quick shifter is completely amazing. I wasn't used to it because all of my bikes were clutch/gears but the S1000RR has that quick shifter which allows you to focus on all things you need to keep your drive, line and hitting all your marks. Hats off to CSS for selecting such a great machine. Honestly, now I'm really tempted to have one in my garage? :blink:

 

Just watch out. I ended up with two of them much the same way. Not that I'm complaining at all. One of the best motorcycles I have ever ridden. :)

 

 

 

:lol: now I'm really tempted. :)

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Hotfoot    48

 

 

Having completed Level 1 & 2 now I totally understand why CSS uses the S1000RR. That bike is absolutely perfect for training on the track. I mean it handles so well, sticky Q3s' and that quick shifter is completely amazing. I wasn't used to it because all of my bikes were clutch/gears but the S1000RR has that quick shifter which allows you to focus on all things you need to keep your drive, line and hitting all your marks. Hats off to CSS for selecting such a great machine. Honestly, now I'm really tempted to have one in my garage? :blink:

 

Just watch out. I ended up with two of them much the same way. Not that I'm complaining at all. One of the best motorcycles I have ever ridden. :)

 

 

 

:lol: now I'm really tempted. :)

 

 

There's more than one in my garage, too. They are awesome.

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Jaybird180    30

 

I think it was the sheer rideability and impressive capabilities of the BMW S1000rr in particular that drove the change from 600cc to 1000cc bikes at the school.

I'm sure dollars and cents influenced that decision too. CSS has been with Kwak for a long time and I'm sure the phone rang during the decision making process.

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Jaybird180    30

Not to ruffle any feathers but I'm not sure I see the point of a 600cc market segment anymore. It used to be about weight and handling but as time's moved on that's almost become a non existent issue the the more modern 1L machines. A new R6 is $10,990 for the base model with no electronics available for it at all. The Base RR is $15,500. So for about $4500 you get way more power, DTC, Ride modes and ABS along with it.

 

BMW is smart not getting into that market. A customer that can't see the value of that much more performance and equipment for $4500 is going to buy the Yamaha anyway based on cost alone. Don't get me wrong I love small displacement motorcycles. Ten years ago they were quite relevant. Technology however has moved on and the current model 1L machines are amazing. The only reason 600's still sell so well is because of a lot of somewhat outdated thinking about them. They don't handle that much better than the European 1L machines and they have a considerable power disadvantage to all of them. For years they have just been changing the paint schemes with no real R&D investment in evolving the designs.

 

If BMW wanted to make a "small bike" something similar to the KTM 390 would be a much better choice. I hope they don't thought. Invest those R&D dollars into the RR and make it even more amazing than it is. That's a tall order because even the first generation 2010 model year bikes are amazing in every way and still competitive against brand new 1L models.

Having just got my first Literbike, I think the insurance market has some influence too. My current insurer gives us a great rate that nobody can beat. It's so good they're trying to get out of insuring motorcycles but have to grandfather all current policies - so we keep it. When I added the 2006 CBR1000RR 2 weeks ago, they didn't offer the same level of medical liability as they did on the other 2 bikes. And furthermore they have in small print that all coverages must be equal. So we had to reduce medical liability, which was reflected in the premium from what they originally quoted.

 

Keep in mind also that in Europe many riders have a provisional licenses and have to graduate up the cc ladder. In America if you can pay for it, you can own it.

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Jaybird180    30

I typed a long reply but the power went out. Nothing I have not said before so I'll save you the reading. :)

 

I think the real issue that many people have with electronic rider aids is admitting to themselves that they could use the help. As well some of this stigma comes across in the 600cc vs 1000cc debate with the perception that riders on 1000cc bikes use the additional power as a crutch. Whatever the perception the reality is these systems help reduce crashes. Look at what happened with the school when they went from the 600cc bikes with no technology to the 1000cc bikes from BMW.

 

These systems are gaining a bit more acceptance as riders try them out for themselves. The stigma of needing help is still there of course but give it some time and perhaps that will pass. Much like other stigmas involving safety like wearing helmets and other protective gear in the olden days.

The problem is that you can't take the human factor out of the results. Very likely you put a person who's never ridden anything bigger than a 600, they're going to be a little timid. How many sessions does it take to get a rider comfortable on a bike? I rode the schools ZX6 and didn't feel comfortable in the 2 days I rode it. I had a difficult time integrating with the bike. Fatigue and dehydration may have also been a factor but I've always eschewed Kawasaki's (except I did like the ZX-12R).

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Jaybird180    30

On the sales thing I'm sure you are right. The RR is great technology but a big departure from what they are used to selling. Add into that a new type of customer who's using their bike in a very different way than what they are accustomed to. I'm actually quite fortunate that my local dealer BMW Atlanta is used to dealing with lots of track going RR's.

 

Yes indeed we are a minority in the motorcycle world. While 600cc racing is still popular many of the street going 600cc bikes are decisions based on cost. Those bikes on the road provide way more performance than most riders need. The riders who have the extra disposable income always go for the 1L machines. Quite honestly they are the best value. They also provide the highest level of status on the road being more powerful which in a lot of cases is what drives those purchase decisions. :)

 

Think about it this way. If you were selling a product and had a choice on which market segments you wanted to sell to what would you choose? An already heavily saturated market driven by cost with limited opportunity for innovation or a market not constrained like that?

 

Thank you for the invitation to your Chateau. I'll be at COTA October 29th and 30th. Hopefully you will be there. :)

I'll be in ATL later this week. You got me thinking of sneaking my 1-pc and other gear in the trunk.

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rchase    5

 

Not to ruffle any feathers but I'm not sure I see the point of a 600cc market segment anymore. It used to be about weight and handling but as time's moved on that's almost become a non existent issue the the more modern 1L machines. A new R6 is $10,990 for the base model with no electronics available for it at all. The Base RR is $15,500. So for about $4500 you get way more power, DTC, Ride modes and ABS along with it.

 

BMW is smart not getting into that market. A customer that can't see the value of that much more performance and equipment for $4500 is going to buy the Yamaha anyway based on cost alone. Don't get me wrong I love small displacement motorcycles. Ten years ago they were quite relevant. Technology however has moved on and the current model 1L machines are amazing. The only reason 600's still sell so well is because of a lot of somewhat outdated thinking about them. They don't handle that much better than the European 1L machines and they have a considerable power disadvantage to all of them. For years they have just been changing the paint schemes with no real R&D investment in evolving the designs.

 

If BMW wanted to make a "small bike" something similar to the KTM 390 would be a much better choice. I hope they don't thought. Invest those R&D dollars into the RR and make it even more amazing than it is. That's a tall order because even the first generation 2010 model year bikes are amazing in every way and still competitive against brand new 1L models.

Having just got my first Literbike, I think the insurance market has some influence too. My current insurer gives us a great rate that nobody can beat. It's so good they're trying to get out of insuring motorcycles but have to grandfather all current policies - so we keep it. When I added the 2006 CBR1000RR 2 weeks ago, they didn't offer the same level of medical liability as they did on the other 2 bikes. And furthermore they have in small print that all coverages must be equal. So we had to reduce medical liability, which was reflected in the premium from what they originally quoted.

 

Keep in mind also that in Europe many riders have a provisional licenses and have to graduate up the cc ladder. In America if you can pay for it, you can own it.

 

 

Insurance s a problem wherever you go. It has a lot to do with a business model straight out of the stone ages and government protection. Where's the incentive to be logical or reasonable when your customers are forced to do business with you?

 

I'm not a fan of the idea of tiered licensing. For every rider with poor impulse control that it helps it unfairly punishes those who are responsible. It's logic is to protect the lowest common denominator who still manages to get themselves hurt on a low powered bikes.

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rchase    5

 

I typed a long reply but the power went out. Nothing I have not said before so I'll save you the reading. :)

 

I think the real issue that many people have with electronic rider aids is admitting to themselves that they could use the help. As well some of this stigma comes across in the 600cc vs 1000cc debate with the perception that riders on 1000cc bikes use the additional power as a crutch. Whatever the perception the reality is these systems help reduce crashes. Look at what happened with the school when they went from the 600cc bikes with no technology to the 1000cc bikes from BMW.

 

These systems are gaining a bit more acceptance as riders try them out for themselves. The stigma of needing help is still there of course but give it some time and perhaps that will pass. Much like other stigmas involving safety like wearing helmets and other protective gear in the olden days.

The problem is that you can't take the human factor out of the results. Very likely you put a person who's never ridden anything bigger than a 600, they're going to be a little timid. How many sessions does it take to get a rider comfortable on a bike? I rode the schools ZX6 and didn't feel comfortable in the 2 days I rode it. I had a difficult time integrating with the bike. Fatigue and dehydration may have also been a factor but I've always eschewed Kawasaki's (except I did like the ZX-12R).

 

 

The irony is I was one of those people at one time. I thought my ancient R6 was the most powerful bike that you "needed". I adapted to the BMW almost instantly.

 

With a bit more experience under my belt and bikes adjusted specifically for me I do see what you are saying though about "adapting" to the bike. I rented a school bike this past school and only rode it in the rain and for a few other sessions. Going from a bike that's literally an extension of me to a stock bike takes a bit of adjustment.

 

I wish we were doing a track day this week. Next one is in September. On another note since the cat is out of the bag now as of a few minutes ago the October date that I was speaking about is Double R fest 2016. It just got announced. It's expensive but it's limited attendance and they are going to have a BMW WSBK engineer doing data on riders bikes this year. I can't wait. There's rumors floating around already about the VIP guest riders. :)

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BikeSpeedman    14

One reason is that maybe you don't want to have to replace or upgrade after you've had some training.

 

I have a 675R and I love it. In most ways, I prefer it to the S1000RR. However, at track days I like to ride the novice group because I like to see what's coming and in the novice group, I do a lot more passing than being passed. I really hate not having mirrors.

 

Anyway, the novice groups are full of guys on liter bikes who practically pull over and park in the corners and if you're 60 bhp down it doesn't matter how much better your exit is than there's, you'll be behind them all the way down the straight. On the plus side, it's fun find different places on the track where you can get them. But I bet it would be more fun to just fly by them immediately rather than having to wait for it.

 

That said, when I save up enough for my 2nd bike (likely an R1) I will make that my dedicated commuter and keep tracking the Daytona. The extra low end grunt will make double-yellow passes easier and I don't want to risk wadding up an expensive new bike on the track (where it's uninsured).

 

Still, I can see why going straight to a liter bike would be a good thing. My first bike was a Monster 696 and when I went to CSS I couldn't believe how much easier the BMW was to ride. Not just to ride fast but to ride safely - in control. I do not like the advice commonly given out that your first bike should be an upright and low capacity bike. Sport bikes are easier to ride than nakeds with high bars. And with rider modes, liter bikes are very ridable.

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DamienC    2

Interesting topic !

 

Bikespeedman, your upcoming 2nd bike, apparently an R1...will it be a 2015-2017 model ? If so, go and try it first. My R1 is a track only bike but I did the official 1000 km on the road first, nicely, as recommended...the new R1 is NOT a comfortable bike on the road. The engine is not smooth enough at low RPM to be comfortable on the road as a commuter. At least, I hated it when doing these 1000 loooong kms... My former s1000rr was way more comfortable on the road than the R1, by far. Now my R1 is a track-only bike (so was my s1000rr eventually), and there I like it much better than the s1000rr. But for the road...ouch !

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