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What If Csschool Is Only Track Time?

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1. waste of time?

2. going to level 4 with only 3 track days previously, is that like playing competitive basketball while being only 4 foot tall, or going straight to college after "graduating" from kindergarden, or going for liquor after your first lite beer, or wanting to becoming a supermodel after posting your first photo on the internet via facebook?

 

p.s. I live where the curvy roads are the clover leaf freeway on/off ramps.

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I don't consider any of this a waste of time, even if you have no local tracks, simply because the things you learn translate to the road as well. Level 4 just helps you tune your riding habits in a program that's customized for you, so you can easily pick your weak points and then the coaches will take it from there. They might have you work on stuff you learned in levels 1-3 again for a session or two, but it's really all about tuning the teaching to you, which I think is fantastic.

 

Plus, it's fun, and fun is good. :-)

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1. waste of time?

2. going to level 4 with only 3 track days previously, is that like playing competitive basketball while being only 4 foot tall, or going straight to college after "graduating" from kindergarden, or going for liquor after your first lite beer, or wanting to becoming a supermodel after posting your first photo on the internet via facebook?

 

p.s. I live where the curvy roads are the clover leaf freeway on/off ramps.

 

Lots of repeat students come to CSS instead of doing track days.Why? Here are a few reasons:

1) Fewer riders on track - especially for 2 day camps!

2) Much safer riding environment - as an example, my local trackday has an AVERAGE of 12 crashes per day. CSS has lots of zero-crash days (with an overall average of less than one per day); CSS corner workers are trained to spot riding errors, dangerous riding, close passing, etc. (as are the coaches) and these things are handled immediately. Course control at regular trackdays is highly variable, some providers do a better job than others...

3) Coaching! Just because you haven't had a lot of practice time since your last school doesn't mean you can't or won't make big improvements in your riding in your next CSS day. In Level 4 you and your coach and your L4 consultant will work together to make a plan for your day, and adjust it throughout the day - so you can ride with a plan for improvement, instead of just riding around.

4) Track opportunities - you can rent a bike and even rent gear, so you can travel to tracks all over the country!

5) As FieryRobot says above, what you learn at CSS does translate to road riding, even if you don't have a lot of curvy roads to work with. Having better control of your motorcycle and riding comfortably with the minimum effort is always helpful, and even more so if you have to stop suddenly, swerve sharply, deal with slippery conditions, etc.

6) Plus - as said above - it's FUN! Everyone is very friendly and there is a lot of support - student services, water, electrolytes, mechanic, etc. to make your day easier, more productive, and more enjoyable.

 

(FYI, personally, for me, as a student, I often chose CSS over track days PRIMARILY because of the safety factor. Open track days, and road riding, for that matter, can be scary, where CSS days always felt very comfortable, friendly and safe for me. That being said, the major benefit afterwards was always the coaching and the improvements I made. Now I mostly choose 2 day camps to go to new, far away tracks, and I always have a blast.)

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1. waste of time?

2. going to level 4 with only 3 track days previously, is that like playing competitive basketball while being only 4 foot tall, or going straight to college after "graduating" from kindergarden, or going for liquor after your first lite beer, or wanting to becoming a supermodel after posting your first photo on the internet via facebook?

 

p.s. I live where the curvy roads are the clover leaf freeway on/off ramps.

 

Lots of repeat students come to CSS instead of doing track days.Why? Here are a few reasons:

1) Fewer riders on track - especially for 2 day camps!

2) Much safer riding environment - as an example, my local trackday has an AVERAGE of 12 crashes per day. CSS has lots of zero-crash days (with an overall average of less than one per day); CSS corner workers are trained to spot riding errors, dangerous riding, close passing, etc. (as are the coaches) and these things are handled immediately. Course control at regular trackdays is highly variable, some providers do a better job than others...

 

 

Agreed. Very good reasons why one should sign up. For my 2-day camp, it's true; only one guy went down out of the full 2 days and dozens of riders on the track. The rider made an error causing him to go down. Course control had pretty much things in order while I was there. I felt very safe riding at the track because there's also no passing unless safe to do so.

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I have to agree with Hotfoot. I have been at track days where every single session was ended early with a red flag. Many riders have poor attitudes and ride way over their heads and increase the risk for everyone exponentially. Many people are put off by this. There are a few track day org's out there that even if they were giving away their days for free I would have to think long and hard about it being worth the risk. I won't name names so don't ask. :)

 

While track riding is a perishable skill not all of it perishes. Professional training teaches you how the bike reacts in extreme situations. You would be surprised at how the training kicks in automatically out of nowhere when the need suddenly arises. Even if you ride mostly on the street CSS training is still very worthwhile. Learning the right techniques will stick with you no matter where you ride or how fast you do that riding.

 

I have a close friend who I met years ago during Level 1 at CSS who traveled extensively and was too busy to do regular track days. He's now running a small business and time is still a problem for him. Even though he only gets out on the track once a year usually with CSS he's pretty quick. I ride every single event with the org that I help out with and he's still way faster than I am. :)

 

CSS offers training and personalized feedback. The attitude on track is that of wanting to learn and is overwhelmingly courteous and positive. If the only time you have to ride is with CSS it's a great experience.

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Many thoughtful points here! Thank you.

 

I'm trying to figure out the criteria for my next track. My guess is that Willow is where totw 2 dvd is filmed and I might want to go there sometime for the connected turns. I'm not real sure how correct it is, but I feel the need to develop the ability to sense speed more accurately and rank this skill higher than others that I can think of. So I'm leaning toward tracks with longer straights.

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Streets of Willow is a great track , with a horrible reputation, I personally love it, and if you can learn to ride fast there, you can ride fast ANYWHERE

 

To your original question, 97% of my track time is with CSS, I've only done 2 non CSS track days ( one was to get my race license ) and 2 Club Race weekends, Personally I've done at least 100 days at Streets of willow and been to a few other tracks as well with them, although I'm normally not there as a student, but as one of the corner workers. I have done all 4 levels though and the coaching is very good.

 

There is nothing wrong with sticking with the best program available, there are a number of very habitual riders that take the school as students almost as often as I'm there corner working,

 

However there is one caveat to riding exclusively with CSS in that you're never going to be able to do some "hot laps" as a student, one because its frowned on as you're there to learn not set fast laps, and 2 due to the group makeup the pace of riders is always a mix and getting a few laps of clear track is a rarity once you're pace pick's up. Unless of course you're at a Code RACE school

 

Tyler

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There is nothing wrong with sticking with the best program available, there are a number of very habitual riders that take the school as students almost as often as I'm there corner working,

 

 

Normally I don't pick nits but this one bugs me a bit. First and foremost CSS is in my opinion one of the better schools out in the marketplace. Keith is one of the pioneers of teaching and he's done an amazing job with the school, books and the videos. Saying that they are "the best" is a bit over the top. They very well may be (I suspect it highly myself) but unless you have taken them all you have no real way of knowing one way or another. :)

 

Next year I plan on doing YCRS in addition to CSS. They are possibly the most polar opposite to CSS that I can think of. While this may be a huge waste of money I want to see another perspective and approach. It also might be fun to troll the YCRS instructors when they try to say what CSS teaches. I have actually trolled a few YCRS instructors already taking pot shots at CSS at track days trying to pitch their school. "Uhm yea I'm a CSS Level 4 and that's not what they taught me".

 

You are right about one thing and that's the repeat offenders. I have been back every single year to CSS since the first time I rode with them back in 2012. That alone speaks volumes about how helpful their program is to riders. They come back year after year. I feel so strongly that CSS is so valuable that I have helped pay for other riders to attend.

 

Despite picking nits you can probably search the forum and find me saying they are the best too. You give me a hard time Tyler so I have to occasionally return the favor. :)

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Ok, it's kinda weird to argue with someone expressing their OPINION that CSS is the best, especially here on the CSS forum! I think it was evident in Tyler's post that he meant CSS is the best, in his experience, since he did not speciifically compare to a list of other track days or schools, nor was he claiming to be an exceptional authority on the subject, other than having done a lot of days with CSS.

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Ok, it's kinda weird to argue with someone expressing their OPINION that CSS is the best, especially here on the CSS forum! I think it was evident in Tyler's post that he meant CSS is the best, in his experience, since he did not speciifically compare to a list of other track days or schools, nor was he claiming to be an exceptional authority on the subject, other than having done a lot of days with CSS.

 

Just giving Tyler a hard time. It was not my intention to offend anyone and hope that I have not done such.

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What I find weird is that for some reason the "Judiciary levels of Impartiality" RChase is expecting of us here are somehow exempted when the discussion turns to brands and models of motorcycle ....

 

I say to you Sir Robert :D , How can a Track School that does not rent BMW S1000RR's even begin to compare to one that does .....

 

 

 

On a serious note though I know of someone who basically got kicked out of a Pridmore school for responding with "That's not what they taught me at CSS" to everything, I don't think the rider was asked to leave, but my understanding was they were no longer coached for the remainder of the day

 

There are Lots of other schools and organizations, I hear there's a ranch just outside Tavullia with some top notch instruction, however few have the resources and travel to as many facilities as CSS. I've not actually checked the numbers on this, but I'm fairly sure they are the biggest school in the country, and their schedule has WAY more dates than any other organization that I'm aware of.

 

Personally the next school I would like to attend is Collin Edwards camp in Texas, but the curriculum there is very different from CSS, so I wouldn't put them in the same category

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What I find weird is that for some reason the "Judiciary levels of Impartiality" RChase is expecting of us here are somehow exempted when the discussion turns to brands and models of motorcycle ....

 

I say to you Sir Robert :D , How can a Track School that does not rent BMW S1000RR's even begin to compare to one that does .....

 

 

 

On a serious note though I know of someone who basically got kicked out of a Pridmore school for responding with "That's not what they taught me at CSS" to everything, I don't think the rider was asked to leave, but my understanding was they were no longer coached for the remainder of the day

 

There are Lots of other schools and organizations, I hear there's a ranch just outside Tavullia with some top notch instruction, however few have the resources and travel to as many facilities as CSS. I've not actually checked the numbers on this, but I'm fairly sure they are the biggest school in the country, and their schedule has WAY more dates than any other organization that I'm aware of.

 

Personally the next school I would like to attend is Collin Edwards camp in Texas, but the curriculum there is very different from CSS, so I wouldn't put them in the same category

 

There's the Tyler I know! :)

 

It's funny you mention the brand of bikes. I make no excuses about my love of the RR platform. I do own more than one Yamaha so I could easily adapt if I did not bring my own bikes.

 

While that's a difficult situation for everyone involved I can kind of see why that became a problem. You either want their help or you don't. There's of course a point where the argument back and forth between coach and student becomes pointless. One thing that I learned this year at the school is the value of having an open mind taught to me by both Gerry and Cobie. Gerry and I had a difference of opinion about body position and Cobie got involved to help convince me to do it "their way". Doing it their way taught me a few very valuable things I would not have picked up otherwise. I'm back to "doing it wrong" but with a few elements of the "doing it right" that worked really well for me.

 

I don't plan on trolling their technique at all. I'll embrace that as best I can as I do CSS's curriculum. Where I intend to troll is where they tend to distort the facts about a school that's helped me tremendously. I have run into YCRS instructors at track days who have said some pretty inaccurate things about CSS. Perhaps they should try taking the school themselves? However I'm thankful for your insight on that students experience. I don't want my experience to be tainted by bias so I may not say a word about anything.

 

My hope and goal is to perhaps pick up a few things from doing it another way. Right or wrong if it helps it helps. If it does not help it's better understanding of a way that does not work well and why.

 

In any event. This thread is about an entirely different subject so I'm going to drop this conversation like a hot potato once I make this last point.

 

I took the opportunity to harass Tyler a bit but I also wanted to make an important point at the same time that I did not do a good job conveying. People often describe products and services as "the best" and it becomes somewhat cliche. The level of instruction and professional coaching I have gotten at the school has been beyond amazing. To just call them "the best" does not truly describe the level of dedication the coaches have and the quality of the curriculum.

 

Here's another way to think about this. A friend of mine who races won a race recently. To say he won the race does not accurately describe what actually happened. He won the race on a stock bike that was way outclassed by everything else on the track and he busted his backside to do it. That in itself is much more of an accomplishment than merely winning the race. In much the same way CSS has provided me amazing improvements in my riding despite my lack of experience on a bike. They weren't exactly working with the best of materials when they started building a better rider out of me. You can say they are "the best" but that alone can't possibly describe the experience a student might have taking the school.

 

I hope this better explains things. I think I'll leave Tyler alone from now on and just happily accept he thinks I'm completely biased. He's probably right anyway. :)

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It seems that lv4 at CSS doesn't have classroom instructions? maybe neither does lv3? One could argue about knowledge vs practice 'til blue in the face, but for me understanding why things work matters a lot. Personally, I think that I would find value in knowing the differences in techniques. If it doesn't take away from riding time or normal curriculum in lv3 or lv4, it would be helpful to insert discussion at school about the different techniques. Marquez does this, Rossi does that, Lorenzo does this, this works for him because of his long legs, that works for this other guy because he's flexible, Pedrosa has to do it this way because he's smaller, this is the best technique for racing but normal people don't have the flexibility to achieve it, etc. That kind of discussion would be very useful.

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It seems that lv4 at CSS doesn't have classroom instructions? maybe neither does lv3? One could argue about knowledge vs practice 'til blue in the face, but for me understanding why things work matters a lot. Personally, I think that I would find value in knowing the differences in techniques. If it doesn't take away from riding time or normal curriculum in lv3 or lv4, it would be helpful to insert discussion at school about the different techniques. Marquez does this, Rossi does that, Lorenzo does this, this works for him because of his long legs, that works for this other guy because he's flexible, Pedrosa has to do it this way because he's smaller, this is the best technique for racing but normal people don't have the flexibility to achieve it, etc. That kind of discussion would be very useful.

 

Level 4 DOES have classroom, and so does Level 3. In Level 3 there is a lot of focus on relationship of bike and rider - body position, lock on, staying connected to the bike during transitions, steering effectiveness, etc., so the classroom portion involves a demonstration BIKE and students are put ON the bike IN the classroom to get a real understanding of the drills and techniques. I'm not sure what would give you the impression that there is no Level 3 classroom instruction - except sometimes the logistics of using an actual bike (like upstairs classrooms) means the Level 3 class is done in a different area than Level 1 and 2, in a garage or shaded outside area.

 

For Level 4 the classroom instruction is tailored specifically to the student. You are assigned a L4 consultant, who is your classroom instructor, plus an on-track coach. Your L4 consultant works with you and your coach to figure out a plan for your day, and your classroom time is customized to the particular areas you are working on - which gives you the opportunity for in-depth, one-one-one discussion of techniques and specific ways for YOU to apply them, and it is a terrific opportunity to ask the questions you pose above - coaches can't ALWAYS identify why a certain racer rides a certain way (for example, sometimes they are compensating for an old - or current - injury, or a bike setup problem, which can look rather mysterious if you don't know about those factors) but they can certainly discuss the benefits of various techniques you see used by various riders. You can also listen in on what other students in L4 are working on, which is usually extremely informative as well. It's customized training and coaching and it is great. It is a long, long way from just riding around. :)

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It seems that lv4 at CSS doesn't have classroom instructions? maybe neither does lv3? One could argue about knowledge vs practice 'til blue in the face, but for me understanding why things work matters a lot. Personally, I think that I would find value in knowing the differences in techniques. If it doesn't take away from riding time or normal curriculum in lv3 or lv4, it would be helpful to insert discussion at school about the different techniques. Marquez does this, Rossi does that, Lorenzo does this, this works for him because of his long legs, that works for this other guy because he's flexible, Pedrosa has to do it this way because he's smaller, this is the best technique for racing but normal people don't have the flexibility to achieve it, etc. That kind of discussion would be very useful.

 

Where did you get the idea that L4 does not include classroom time? You spend almost 30+ minutes with your coach and L4 consultant after each ride figuring out what worked and what to work on next. You also get the experience of listening to other students working through similar and different issues. It's free form with no specific topic but it's usually valuable information and at the very least the knowledge that you aren't alone in the challenges that you face out there on the bike at speed. There's no specific curriculum but some of my greatest gains have come from L4 training.

 

Here's a short list of things I have personally accomplished in L4

 

-braking harder, later and being able to modulate the brakes to arrive mid corner at the exact speed I want

-visual skills

-corner entry speed

-passing skills and strategy

-body position

-throttle control and how it ultimately affects my line

-decluttering my mind of the useless details that were slowing me down (thank you Keith!)

 

There's so much classroom time in fact that I felt pressed for time. Between getting my bike on it's warmers, talking to my on track coach, working with the L4 consultant and checking pressures, keeping the bike in fuel and staying hydrated it's usually go go go all day long.

 

One of the things that I always liked about the school is their ability to explain end to end the logic of technique. This is quite helpful when evaluating what works for you and what does not. Be careful though. My obsession with logic and reason slowed me down a LOT. You don't have enough time to think through things when the pavement is moving by at high speed.

 

MotoGP riders and riders like you and I don't have a lot in common because of the far distance between "where" we are riding. Those guys have years of experience under their belts and their technique is usually to adapt to some pretty extreme things. Injuries, prototype bikes with much different handling and acceleration characteristics. You can emulate them as much as you like however unless you are riding a bike with 240hp with the pressure of racing in you aren't going much faster as a result. You might even being slowing yourself down. The harsh reality is the average person learning to ride at the track is not even using 10% of the performance capabilities of their bike and tires. Focus on the basics and don't worry about what they are doing in MotoGP. When it comes to how it actually relates to a real rider on a production bike those guys might as well be racing space ships. :)

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L3 & L4 students were also present when I took Levels 1 & 2. They were set up in another class room plus they also went out to try out the stationary track bike for demonstrations. I liked the fact that although there were fewer students in that particular class, they was more one-to-one attention to working with the coaches. As for Moto GP riders, IMHO, their level can't even be compared to us because their level is somewhere in the stratosphere. What I found helpful where the videos of typical riders showing us errors to avoid and how to improve certain techniques.

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hehe.

 

When I took the first set of 2-days, I thought the level 3 group were behind us behind the wall talking too loudly and had to be hushed. Between that and the body position bike and I thought there's no classroom instructions. Guess I consider gathering around the body position bike to be a demo where maybe I should think of it as classroom. Lv4 I thought is reworking or finetuning skills that I should have already learned so again no classroom, because coaches don't have prepared material.

 

I used the motoGP riders as euphemism for "totally different" techniques that were hinted above. I've read in a number of different places that schools teach one way and don't entertain other ways of doing things. But I think that by claiming to prefer a certain way of doing things, you imply that you've considered/tried other options, have become familiar with their advantages and disadvantages, and therefore should be able to discuss. Sharing that kind of experience is teaching and learning, and there are potential opportunities here. Being too dismissive is just missing opportunities. For sure people have questions, whether they are encouraged to ask or not, as mentioned in Tyler's post, unless it just takes too much time, gets too argumentative, and interferes with prepared curriculum as a result.

 

I like Willsportbike's comment about identifying mistakes. I'm sure there have been many stubborn students who insist that they do things correctly, until a photo or video showed different. I know I'm not one of them because I always do put to practice exactly what was taught.

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The very last sentence I said in my previous post was a joke. I realized that it could be misunderstood only after I submitted. Glad nobody bit because it was purely tongue in cheek.

 

with CSS ... you're never going to be able to do some "hot laps" as a student... Unless of course you're at a Code RACE school.

I was curious if track control had radar guns that they use to check each rider's corner entry speed against the theoretical maximum set by a coach for instance; and binoculars to check lean angle; and microphones to check if throttle is used incorrectly such as when adding lean or banging against rev limiter. Or maybe each bike has data loggers whose data is collected and evaluated soon after to see if the students did something wrong. If this last thing is true, I wonder if I could bring a usb stick to download each of my riding sessions! It would be nice to have lean angle and braking data! If I know I can get data, it might be worthwhile to bring a laptop to look at data immediately after each session. I find the two riding videos helpful, but I review it in depth a little too late because I'm already home and not on the track any more.

 

In Level 4 you and your coach and your L4 consultant will work together

Is the L4 consultant a world famous racer (wishy thinking right?)? an additional coach? a coach in training? a BMW motorad engineer who speaks english? probably not a returning L4 student? Does the consultant do the heavy lifting as the coach goes out riding with the L1/L2 students? Whereas you can request specific coaches, you probably can't request specific consultants?

 

So many questions and sometimes not sure if I should ask here or wait to ask in school. Unfortnately, if I wait too long, it might be too late or I might forget about the question all together because of how busy things get at school and other reasons. Already searched the cornering forum for hook turn but still have lots of questions, but I think I'll wait for next CSS session. Hope I won't forget.

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I was curious if track control had radar guns that they use to check each rider's corner entry speed against the theoretical maximum set by a coach for instance; and binoculars to check lean angle; and microphones to check if throttle is used incorrectly such as when adding lean or banging against rev limiter. Or maybe each bike has data loggers whose data is collected and evaluated soon after to see if the students did something wrong. If this last thing is true, I wonder if I could bring a usb stick to download each of my riding sessions! It would be nice to have lean angle and braking data! If I know I can get data, it might be worthwhile to bring a laptop to look at data immediately after each session. I find the two riding videos helpful, but I review it in depth a little too late because I'm already home and not on the track any more.

 

In Level 4 you and your coach and your L4 consultant will work together

Is the L4 consultant a world famous racer (wishy thinking right?)? an additional coach? a coach in training? a BMW motorad engineer who speaks english? probably not a returning L4 student? Does the consultant do the heavy lifting as the coach goes out riding with the L1/L2 students? Whereas you can request specific coaches, you probably can't request specific consultants?

 

So many questions and sometimes not sure if I should ask here or wait to ask in school. Unfortnately, if I wait too long, it might be too late or I might forget about the question all together because of how busy things get at school and other reasons. Already searched the cornering forum for hook turn but still have lots of questions, but I think I'll wait for next CSS session. Hope I won't forget.

 

 

Both of my personal bikes are equipped with the BMW Datalogger so I just ride those. Quite honestly you could buy your own datalogger and within a matter of about 3 minutes install it on the school bike and have your laps and everyone else who rode the bike's laps as well. Bring a laptop and pull your sessions and just erase the rest. Don't expect to be able to make heads or tails of the data at the track. Just pull it and store it. The useful analysis comes later. You can check some of the "20 mile views" such as the min max tables and other fun statistical data but as for understanding "what am I doing in Turn 1" that requires some detailed analysis and looking at multiple laps and sessions which takes a while.

 

If I'm 100% honest. The data from this year's CSS is still on my datalogger right now as well as probably at least 10 other tracks too. After the "fun factor" of playing with the data wears off you are left with a lot of information to sift through. I'll still use my logger for solving specific problems when other methods fail but I'm having a lot of fun doing it the old fashioned way for a change.

 

L4 consultants aren't just coaches that can't ride. They are full on coaches and have all the capabilities that the ones on the track do. In fact to be 100% honest they tend to be the faster and more experienced coaches. They take L4 consulting very seriously. This year I had Keith Code for a L4 coach.

 

Most of the coaches have racing experience but you won't hear them talking about it. Their focus is the student rather than anything else. This is helpful too for new people. I might have been REALLY intimidated to find out that the nice lady towing me around the track was a very successful 250 racer when I was doing Level 1. She was just a normal person to me and I trusted her not to tow me over my head. This actually even spills over into the rider bios on the site. You won't see much information there about what they have won and where they have raced. They know they are fast. They are trying to help you accomplish exactly the same thing without all of that getting in the way.

 

This forum exists to help riders. Not just students. If you have a question lay it on us. While you will get the most out of being able to ask a coach directly and being able to practice the technique and then discuss it afterwards sometimes the forum is helpful. I have solved a number of my riding problems here by asking. Both students and others associated with the school and coaches and anybody else who's on the forum can answer. The focus here is helping rather than anything else.

 

The hook turn is a technique used to lower your center of gravity and alter the bike's geometry. When you get into the hook turn position you lower the overall CG of the bike/rider and the front forks compress. The lower the front end the more willing the bike is to turn. It's VERY useful and one of the better tricks I learned when I was taking L3.

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