Jump to content
SJTrance

Hard Braking Weighting

Recommended Posts

So I'm coming into the end of a straight. As I end my acceleration, I shift my body position towards the turn, and firmly but smoothly apply the brake. My inner thigh is at the back of the tank. With the force of the heavy braking, am I using my hands on the handlebars with my elbows bent and my body low, the inner thigh against the back of the tank, both or something else to deal with the pressures of heavy braking?

 

 

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

I mainly use my legs against the tank, rise my body higher for extra braking force and sometimes use my insight leg heel against the foot peg. My hands and arms are busy on the brake lever and the clutch for downshifting so even if I wanted to I don't see how much pressure I could put on the handle bars.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

If you scoot back a little in the seat, can you get your knee into the tank to get a better grip during braking? Also you could potentially keep your INSIDE knee on the tank, too (squeezing both knees into the tank), during the heaviest braking, releasing the inside knee when you initiate your turn-in. Stompgrip is great if you don't already have it. Tightening your core muscles (your midsection) can help keep the pressure on your lower body instead of letting it fall forward onto your arms.

 

If sliding forward is a persistent problem, you can fashion a pad on the back of the tank out of seat foam to prevent you from sliding forward too far.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

So I have the TechSpec tankpad and it's pretty grippy but when I'm shifted over BEFORE I begin to brake, my knees are nowhere near the tankpads. My inner knee, if I try and get it to the tankpad, wraps me around the front of the tank so that my body is facing the opposite direction of the turn. So, I would have to depend on the outside thigh on the back apex of the tank. Maybe I should get the TechSpec front of tank protector too. I would like to keep my hands loose so that I can have the arms relaxed enough to initiate the turn and not be jerky due to pressure on the bars. Also, it would interfere when I want to trail brake into a turn.

 

Let's take a look at this picture here... Where is Marquez and Sykes weighting on this hard braking?

 

Sykes_Action09.jpg

 

gv7r0777-1.jpg

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

The picture is misleading, they got him right before leaning into the turn. I can tell from the position of the inside leg opening up (left leg) and the rear tire lifting, which only happens at maximum brake effort at the end of the straight. At that point the G-force moment pushing the body forward is nowhere close to the beginning of the braking area (the speed differential is much lower).

 

At any rate, the tank pads are visible on the side of the tank behind his arm. Even the motogp pros use them :D

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Well, pressure on the bars DOES contribute to lifting of the rear wheel, usually not a desirable result, especially if you feel obligated to wait for it to come back to earth before you turn the bike. In the top picture especially it looks like the rider is bracing his arms and pressing not only forward but down on the bars, which begs the question - if he could get some pressure OFF the bars (by finding a better lower body lock) could he keep the rear wheel down under the same amount of braking?

 

Speaking of which, what do you think: if you were at your turn point and your rear wheel was still in the air, do you think you could get it turned? I was faced with that EXACT decision not too long ago in a qualifying lap. My gut feeling was that I could have made the turn but I knew there was a rider right behind me and I didn't want to get hit if I fell, so I went a past my turn point to let the rear tire come down before turning it. I still wonder if I could have got it turned with the rear wheel slightly off the ground. If anyone can find a good photo of a racer turning it with the rear wheel still off the ground, I'd like to see it. (Stunt rider stoppies don't count! I know they can do it at slow speeds - I just wonder if there is enough traction AT SPEED around a corner to make it, if you turn in without the rear tire on the pavement.)

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

After watching this video, I have greatly improved my lock on the tank, my body position, my endurance, and have also finally been able to unweigh my bars under braking. Before I tried being further back in the seat and grabbing the tank with my knees. All that did was make me exhausted.

 

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=HeMSfgb5tks

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

With the force of the heavy braking, am I using my hands on the handlebars with my elbows bent and my body low, the inner thigh against the back of the tank, both or something else to deal with the pressures of heavy braking?

 

 

 

Like Hotfoot said, I keep both of my knees against the tank under braking. I preposition on the side of the bike, but keep both knees planted until tip-in. I feel like helped to reduce unwanted bar pressure under braking.

 

After watching this video, I have greatly improved my lock on the tank, my body position, my endurance, and have also finally been able to unweigh my bars under braking. Before I tried being further back in the seat and grabbing the tank with my knees. All that did was make me exhausted.

 

Interesting that Troy talks about using the arch and heel rather than the ball of the foot on the outside leg to lock in. I've tried both, and am currently still on the balls of my feet as I am too slow transitioning side to side from heel to ball. Funny enough, I do feel a better lock on the tank with the heel, even though my contact point is lower on the tank.

 

If anyone can find a good photo of a racer turning it with the rear wheel still off the ground, I'd like to see it.

 

I've seen Marquez start while the rear is still off the ground when watching videos. This is the best that I could find from a google image search.

getting-that-rear-wheel-off-the-ground-y

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

So I have the TechSpec tankpad and it's pretty grippy but when I'm shifted over BEFORE I begin to brake, my knees are nowhere near the tankpads. My inner knee, if I try and get it to the tankpad, wraps me around the front of the tank so that my body is facing the opposite direction of the turn. So, I would have to depend on the outside thigh on the back apex of the tank. Maybe I should get the TechSpec front of tank protector too. I would like to keep my hands loose so that I can have the arms relaxed enough to initiate the turn and not be jerky due to pressure on the bars. Also, it would interfere when I want to trail brake into a turn.

 

 

 

 

Missed responding to this. When you say your inner knee wraps around the tank, how are you moving your body across the seat to preposition? Are you pulling yourself across the seat either through your arms or by standing up on the pegs? Have you done level 3 at CSS yet?

 

Maybe other people will disagree with my method, but I do not have this knee problem. When I pre-position, I am using my inside knee to pull my body across the bike. Since it is the contact patch of my knee and thigh that are pulling me across the bike, my inner knee does not move. It is basically the babystep, or foundation, for the knee-to-knee drill in level 3.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

 

With the force of the heavy braking, am I using my hands on the handlebars with my elbows bent and my body low, the inner thigh against the back of the tank, both or something else to deal with the pressures of heavy braking?

 

 

 

Like Hotfoot said, I keep both of my knees against the tank under braking. I preposition on the side of the bike, but keep both knees planted until tip-in. I feel like helped to reduce unwanted bar pressure under braking.

 

After watching this video, I have greatly improved my lock on the tank, my body position, my endurance, and have also finally been able to unweigh my bars under braking. Before I tried being further back in the seat and grabbing the tank with my knees. All that did was make me exhausted.

 

Interesting that Troy talks about using the arch and heel rather than the ball of the foot on the outside leg to lock in. I've tried both, and am currently still on the balls of my feet as I am too slow transitioning side to side from heel to ball. Funny enough, I do feel a better lock on the tank with the heel, even though my contact point is lower on the tank.

 

If anyone can find a good photo of a racer turning it with the rear wheel still off the ground, I'd like to see it.

 

I've seen Marquez start while the rear is still off the ground when watching videos. This is the best that I could find from a google image search.

getting-that-rear-wheel-off-the-ground-y

 

 

Like Hotfoot and Apollo mentioned- I wonder if it's even possible to turn or even get the countersteer action done with the rear tire in the air without tasting asphalt.

 

I've also seen the Corser video and tried experimenting with going back to heel and it's more stable and more comfortable, but I've got so much invested in riding on the balls of my feet; but I can see the merits in changing, just will take much time and effort. What cemented balls of feet for me was a trackride years ago when I felt my toe slider hit pavement. I never had a problem remembering to ride on the balls of my feet since, which was the mantra at the time.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Hmm, seeking comments?

My high speed braking ( lover 120kph) straight line braking technique has always been to apply brakes with vigor, whilst sitting up tall, having moved forward to mid seat. Knees and elbows out, catching as much air as possible. In other words supplanting the brakes with drag. At very high speeds using drag seems to generate more braking effect than the brakes - at least until the speed drops blow about 120kph.

The load on the bars is limited by the bent outwards facing elbows, and is almost directly downwards, so steering is pretty much able to squirm as necessary, without undue rider input. Indeed the rider is acting as a big parachute so at very very high speeds drag reduces front end loading a little.

As the speed drops to turn in speed, elbows and knees come in, chest and head drop to passive riding position enabling hip flick, and low elbows to counter steer. Then tuck to exit corner reducing drag for the straight.

When hanging off, the drag occurs on the inside of the corner so acts a little like an anchor line multiplying the altered tyre geometry and COG of a leaned bike.

As drag is relative to the visual frontal cross section squared vs the length of the bike, one can easily more than double the drag ( more like multiply it by 7) by sitting up vs a full tuck. ( note this isn't the full story on drag, but a sufficient rubric.)

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

To turn when the back wheel is off the ground ( stoppie) requires that one actively control the relationship between the backend and the front contact patch via providing just enough asymmetric damping to prevent excessive swivel arround the headset. Still soft on the bars, just not totally so. The front end still needs to be allowed to weave microscopically. Much of the balance is served simply by remaining sat on the bike.

Same principle applies when drifting both ends - common enough when encountering unexpected gravel on the street. Too much rider input will dump you on the ground ( high side or low side). Suicide reaction (SR)

Observe calmly, consider the bikes behavior and your options then act very precisely, just once to achieve the outcome wanted.

Most often just barely maintaining the throttle will allow the grip to return just in time to complete the corner, perhaps with a kiss of the inside mirror and then a touch more gas just as the curb is met on the exit. Keep your eyes level with the horizon, and look exactly where you intend to go - even if that happens to be behind you ( as sometimes happens). And ride through.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Create an account or sign in to comment

You need to be a member in order to leave a comment

Create an account

Sign up for a new account in our community. It's easy!

Register a new account

Sign in

Already have an account? Sign in here.

Sign In Now

×