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Spaghetti

The fast riders and the fastest riders

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Spaghetti    1

One of the differences I noticed watching many onboard racing videos is that a majority of expert club racers tend to be aggressive on the throttle right after the apex. They seem to be waiting for that magic point in the corner where they can optimize the bike power. WSBK/motogp videos on the other hand look more symmetrical in throttle control around the apex. Deceleration and acceleration change of speed are similar.

Is this a valid observation? At first I thought this happens because the fastest riders have higher corner speed. But could it be because of the more sophisticated electronics managing the bike?

 

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Jaybird180    30

Do these Expert club racers violate Throttle Rule #1?

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Hotfoot    48

You don't see too many expert racers rolling on and off the throttle mid-corner, they would crash if they did. So I'm banking that they do not violate the rule.

But, do you think they might exceed the optimum 40/60 weight balance mid-corner? 

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Jaybird180    30

If the roll on rates differ, there must be a reason.  Someone isn't doing it in the most optimum fashion and I'd be willing to think it's the club racer.

This brings up another question: Does TC#1 also imply by definition that 40/60 is maintained (throughout the turn)?  I think it does.  If you think so too, then I'm wondering if you had something else in mind by the question?  Were's that can o' worms emoticon when you need one.:)

 

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Hotfoot    48

Personally I think that rolling on the gas too hard right after the apex is extremely common in club racing, I see it all the time and it is a common cause of crashes, and of riders going a little wide which prevents them from getting the best possible drive out of the corner.

If a rider is feeling a strong desire to roll on the gas too aggressively or too abruptly, what does that usually tell you about the rider's corner ENTRY speed? Was it too high, too low, or just right?

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Cobie Fair    13

And this is a little harder to observe in the modern era (throttle roll on) with the electronics.  They could roll on a lot, but the bike might not give them full amount...again, the modern era.

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tmckeen    1

What Cobie said is even more prevalent in WSBK and MotoGP where the electronics and programming control of the bike are a world above what even a well funded Club Racer has, It's really comparing Apple's and Oranges with regards to the hardware your average rider has 

Also its important to remember that some times a point and shoot riding style is faster than a flowing maximum corner speed style, and often times a Racers top priority isn't taking the best line through a corner but making sure they don't get passed.

 

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Hotfoot    48
12 hours ago, tmckeen said:

Also its important to remember that some times a point and shoot riding style is faster than a flowing maximum corner speed style, and often times a Racers top priority isn't taking the best line through a corner but making sure they don't get passed.

 

I think this is where you see a big difference between the big bikes and small bikes - on the smaller displacement machines it is all about carrying corner speed, you see a much higher entry speed and the rider carrying a lot more speed in the corner - that smoother, flowing style.

I also think club racers on 600/1000cc bikes are inundated with advice to "brake until the apex", so they end up trying to apply that in practically every corner and end up giving up way too much corner speed as a result. Then they feel like they have to get on the gas really hard to try to make it up, or to stay ahead of the guy they see coming up behind or around them. You don't hear a lot of "brake until the apex" advice if you are on a 250. :)

I am saying "they" because I have seen plenty of others do it, but I certainly have done the same thing myself! It "feels" faster on the 1000cc bike to brake really hard, and gas it really hard, and even with all the training I have I tend to fall into that trap if I am "trying" to go as fast as I can. I got towed around recently by a top pro rider and guess what? Higher entry speeds, higher corner speed, and he was gentler on both the brakes and throttle than I was. Sigh, it was a reminder that just getting on the gas harder is not the solution.

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tmckeen    1

This is where serious data logging and the army of technicians reviewing that data comes into play.  Testing multiple lines and techniques through a corner and comparing the sector times and exit speed / top speed  achieved.  Sacrificing a little entry and corner speed but gaining several MPH at the end of the straight might net a faster lap,  or vice versa. 

The fastest technique and line through corner 1 isn't the same as the fastest technique and line through corners 2 through 15 anymore, 

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Spaghetti    1

So to illustrate this is one of the videos I had in mind (I can find others). I won't comment, please tell me what you think about exit corners throttle management: 

 

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Hotfoot    48

Since this racer is identified by name and we have some mutual friends, I'm going to sit on the sidelines for this discussion. :) But I will be interested to hear what others observe.

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Spaghetti    1

Another thing about club racing is that most races are sprint, about 6/7 laps or a quarter of a regular WSBK or motogp race. Tire preservation is not as critical.

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Jaybird180    30

I think I understand.  Thank you for that example.

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Hotfoot    48

One thing I will mention - there is limited info available in the video above. You can hear the engine, see the rider's line and observe lean angle, but one thing you CAN'T tell is the relationship between the rider's throttle-hand INPUT and the engine response. So in the video above when you hear the engine rev up, it sounds odd in some places, like it revs up very quickly then flattens out a bit. That could be caused by traction control intervening (if it is present on this bike), by the tire spinning, maybe even by the clutch slipping  - clutches wear out quickly on high horsepower race bikes, race starts are very hard on clutches - it is hard to tell without seeing data that shows throttle input.

On the Superbike School student videos the camera is positioned so that the rider's hand is visible on screen, so it would become immediately obvious whether the rider's throttle input was smooth and consistent or not, plus the BMWs can tell you the actual difference between throttle INPUT (from the rider) and OUTPUT (after any traction control intervention) and the data logger can show tire slip rate, too, all of which would make it easier to analyze the video.

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Jaybird180    30

Good pointing that out.  Going by where the throttle came on, it was very confusing.  In some places he came off throttle but the camera didn't pitch forward.

 

Considering the video said 2016 I can assume at latest the R6 he was riding was that year model which didn't come from the factory with TC.  Of course there are tons of aftermarket goodies to equip it with such.

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Hotfoot    48
1 hour ago, Jaybird180 said:

I think I understand.  Thank you for that example.

So... what was it that changed for you? Just curious.

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Jaybird180    30
5 minutes ago, Hotfoot said:

So... what was it that changed for you? Just curious.

As you recall, I had a question and started a thread about roll-on rates.  The rider in the video is much more aggressive than I but I think it's a good example of a greedy right hand and maybe a bit of off-timing.  Of course it's easy for me to say sitting here at my computer desk.

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Jaybird180    30
On ‎3‎/‎5‎/‎2017 at 1:50 PM, Spaghetti said:

 

Having just ridden this circuit 6 days ago, watching this video was like watching me on video with it set to 2.25x speed- LoL. it's a good example of how much more progress I can make.

It's amazing what one can learn by looking as something again fresh in a new period of time. :-)

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tomw    2

It seems like the club racer above is using some sophisticated quick shifting to downshift mid corner and some traction control wizardry to maintain 40/60 through the turn. It reminds me of F1 engines in the early 2000s. Paddle shifting with traction control meant the gears were effortlessly changed at any moment with the throttle pinned. I always think about the time the electronics don’t work (faulty ground wire or something) and that riding style instantly becomes dangerous. 

 

Then there’s this onboard footage...speaking of “fastest”

 

 

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