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This foot position thread got me thinking about hand position.  For a long time didn't seem to be a big issue, but as we've delved into it, there more pieces to that puzzle too.  Often we see the front brake lever in a position that is not easy to reach, either too high, or too low.  Then we hear about riders not being able to roll the throttle all the way (one guy told me in the middle of a roll on he had to re-grip!).

So to start out, I'd like to ask a few survey questions:

 

1.  How many pay any attention to your had position, or is this a virtual non-issue?

2.  How many have had any issues with control actions of their hands: hard to reach brake, use throttle effectively/easily (or even clutch).

Let's start with that, see what we get.

CF

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There's are a few videos on YouTube about changing hand control position to better suit the rider. By all indications, riders are largely reluctant to make ergonomic adjustments to their bikes, believing the factory knows best.

I will be able to finish this thought later, as I'm in my driveway home now, typing on my iPhone.

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Fascinating...I think we adjust a lot of levers.

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It's the first thing I notice*, the throw of the throttle, and then the angle of the levers. So changing and adjusting the components are vital to my comfort, especially grips. I find that soft thin grip, like the pale grey renthals are the best.

 

*seat and pegs too, I recovered every seat on every bike I ever had

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Both reshaping to a flatter, more horizontal shape, and more grip. Both helps me stay in place and be less likely to put unwanted weight on the bars. I used suede on my seats on top of closed cell foam, which was sanded to shape.

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I think about my hand positions a lot. On my track bike, the position of the brake lever vs clutch lever are very different. I don' t know what's good what's bad, but I played a lot with that to find what works for me. Then when leaning to the right, I actually do think a lot about moving my hand so that it is in continuity with the throttle for better control. Also I changed the throttle so have less angle when WOT. Like this, I don't need to turn my hand so much and I feel I have more control.

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I took the comment from Jaybird 180 and looked online.  I was very interested since the S1000RR stock clip-ons have stops to prevent realignment.  Of course there are some adjustments still possible.  For the real answer I was fortunate enough to find the CSS video that popped up from my search.  I watched the Utube video Dylan did on this topic.  I never thought about adjusting my grip to a 'screwdriver-like' hold when hanging off.  It was so simple I felt a bit behind the 8-ball.  All in all it makes absolute sense to keep the alignment correct.  Another great tip and visual explanation.

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Question relating to roll-on/off.  Keith states in Wrist II that when you "slow the basic throttle roll-on through a turn, it costs time and stability".  Just so I am not over-thinking this.  Is it correct to say that if I am following the throttle rule, and my rate of roll-on is too slow, that I can negatively affect my stability the same as if I stopped the roll-on or rolled off?

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Sorry another Wrist II question;  DC's column note in Throttle Control states "It's simple; crack it on-let it settle-come into it.  What am I missing?  That would seem to violate the throttle rule number one, at least the let it settle part. 

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53 minutes ago, powayTom said:

Question relating to roll-on/off.  Keith states in Wrist II that when you "slow the basic throttle roll-on through a turn, it costs time and stability".  Just so I am not over-thinking this.  Is it correct to say that if I am following the throttle rule, and my rate of roll-on is too slow, that I can negatively affect my stability the same as if I stopped the roll-on or rolled off?

If your roll on is too slow you would not be optimizing the weight distribution for the best possible traction, and suspension efficiency. But, if you compare that to chopping the throttle mid corner, which do you think would have a greater effect? What would happen to the weight distribution between front and rear tires? How would it affect your suspension? 

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So too slow a rate prevents you from obtaining the 40/60 distro.  Chopping mid corner would seem to be much, much worse since that is an immediate uneven transfer of rear to front.  The chop would also compress the front fork and lower the rear and create a pogo when  you did start to roll on again.    Thank you HotToes.

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On ‎5‎/‎8‎/‎2017 at 10:20 PM, powayTom said:

I took the comment from Jaybird 180 and looked online.  I was very interested since the S1000RR stock clip-ons have stops to prevent realignment.  Of course there are some adjustments still possible.  For the real answer I was fortunate enough to find the CSS video that popped up from my search.  I watched the Utube video Dylan did on this topic.  I never thought about adjusting my grip to a 'screwdriver-like' hold when hanging off.  It was so simple I felt a bit behind the 8-ball.  All in all it makes absolute sense to keep the alignment correct.  Another great tip and visual explanation.

Sorry I didn't "finish" the thought as I posted above. Seems that it was useful enough for you to take assertive action. Goal achieved!

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On ‎5‎/‎8‎/‎2017 at 9:06 PM, powayTom said:

So too slow a rate prevents you from obtaining the 40/60 distro.  Chopping mid corner would seem to be much, much worse since that is an immediate uneven transfer of rear to front.  The chop would also compress the front fork and lower the rear and create a pogo when  you did start to roll on again.    Thank you HotToes.

Yep. Good understanding! If you have the Twist II DVD there is also a good illustration on there showing the effect on the front tire when you abruptly chop the throttle. Regarding your other question about the quote in Twist II on throttle control - I don't really know the answer on that one, I want to get that info from Keith or Dylan or Cobie but they are on the road at schools right now so I'm not sure when I will hear back. I'll post up when I have the info for you, or one of them will. It could be that he was referring to bikes that may have jerked a bit when the throttle was first applied, as opposed to our newer 1000cc bikes that have a much more predictable and smooth throttle response. :) 

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On 4/5/2017 at 2:08 PM, Cobie Fair said:

1.  How many pay any attention to your had position, or is this a virtual non-issue?

2.  How many have had any issues with control actions of their hands: hard to reach brake, use throttle effectively/easily (or even clutch).

 

1. I pay attention to my hand position and set my levers up to allow a full range without re-gripping. I also set the distance to the levers to personal taste.

2. No issues.

However, I do have a bad habit which the coaches pointed out and I don't feel comfortable working on it. :( I do 99% of my miles on the street so I cover the brake. Alllllll the time. It's partially about being ready to use the brake but it's become a crutch to help me modulate or maintain the throttle as needed. So I haven't been practicing moving my fingers onto and back off of the lever without accidentally affecting throttle input or developed the skills to roll on smoothly without using the lever as a crutch. I hesitate to start practicing on the street because there's a reason we cover on the road and I hesitate to practice on the track because I don't trust myself to do it well.

Not sure what the consensus among coaches is but I think I still manage (now, but not originally) to get my elbow and wrist in the proper position even while covering so maybe I just have to look dumb.

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Thread revival here.  So I have recently been running into a mental conundrum with the screwdriver hand, so I thought to bring it back to the forum.  Admittedly, it has been quite a while since I did the level with screwdriver hand and I have not brought it up in L4 yet.  My issue concerns when regripping or how resetting the hand for braking works.

So the concept of holding the bar like a screwdriver on the inside bar seems clear from a fundamentals perspective.  However, in application, I find that the only way I can really set my hand in the screwdriver position is to "overgrip," which is to say that I roll my inside hand forward over the bar more than a straight hold.  If I try to just switch to a screwdriver hand at the same position on the bar as a straight hold, I feel like I bind up and am restricted by my wrist movement from getting the hook turn drop.  From watching on-boards of Scott Redding, this overgrip seems to be what he is doing also. Left handers aren't an issue. In right handers, this works fine on corner exits as I can get to full throttle while keeping my wrist in the middle of its range of motion.  

My issue is in braking for the next corner after being at wide open throttle.  With the overgrip, if I just roll off while having 100% grip on the throttle, I would end up with the throttle still applied when my hand rotates forward to the "braking position."  It would seem that there is some degree of releasing the throttle slightly so that it slips and rotates more than the throttle hand rotates.  So far, I have been experimenting with this where I am 100% grip rolling off for the first 3/4th of the roll off and then letting the throttle slide inside my grip before 100% gripping again to fully close.  I can't quite make out what Scott Redding is doing from his youtube videos, and there doesn't seem to be much posting on this. 

How are you all doing this?

 

 

 

 

 

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Thank you for bringing this back up. I went back and re-read the entire thread and one of the things I also did was found Dylan's video. I'll post it here and also my thoughts about it as it relates to the concern you're having.

 

One of the things that comes to mind that it's communicated in your write-up is your body position. If you're tucked in in full-attack mode there's going to be a certain relationship of your shoulder, elbow, wrists and hand versus being in braking posture where you are taking some advantage of aero-braking with your upper torso. Your interface with the bike's steering head pivot is going to differ in those two radically different modes of operation. From what I can ascertain, there's a mixture of both modes in your ergonimic interference issues. I'd imagine that you would need to prioritize and then find a suitable position and then change position and have another look at the control interface. You may need to do several iterations until you find a good compromise to give you the level of control you need for your bike. I ended up getting aftermarket bar risers and clip-ons for my bike but by that time, I was sure that it was the solution to my problem.

Have a look at this

And there's also some applicability to your question here

 

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Thanks, Jaybird.  I appreciate the thoughtful reply.  I think my issue/question is different from the baseline ergonomics.  My handlebar setup does follow the usual recommendations, and the angle and reach are fine. And my issue is not necessarily braking comfort. 

I do agree that Dylan's wrist angle video is relevant to my issue.  Part of why I "overgrip" is to get that flat wrist angle when I am at full throttle.  If I merely screwdriver with my hand set rotation wise where it is during braking, I end up rotating past flat wrist as I reach the limit of "screwdriver ability" before full throttle.  This is on a stock throttle R6, so no quick turn throttle.  The brake lever is adjusted as far as it will go without hitting the front stay.  Now, maybe a quick turn throttle is a bandaid, but I feel like there is potentially more to this issue as there are many faster riders without quick turn throttles

From what I can see on onboarding footage from Scott Redding and other riders, they are similarly "overgripping" when they transition to the gas after they release the brakes.  That is, they are  also gripping with their hand rotated forward more than when braking.  With this method, I can get a good wrist angle and body position while on the throttle.  But, the issue is that due to the overgrip, when rolling off the throttle, the hand would roll past the braking position to fully close the throttle.  So far, I have been partially letting the throttle slide in my hand to get both the throttle fully closed and my hand rotated to the braking position.  

So I guess my questions are more:

Is anyone "overgripping" on transitioning back to the throttle after brakes?  Or are my eyes playing tricks on me when watching MotoGP riders transition?  

And if overgripping, what technique are riders using to let the throttle fully close while getting the hand to the braking position? Because the throttle has to rotate more between close and full than the hand between braking and overgrip full.

 

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I'm constantly gripping and re-gripping/adjusting my hand.  Easy enough to do, if well attached to the bike with the lower body.

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