Jump to content
Jaybird180

These lines???- NJMP

Recommended Posts

Having recently completed L3/4 at this circuit I am aghast at how stinkin fast this guy is and the lines he's using. I'm wondering if he's on a 300 because it seems he can maneuver the bike in ways that I wish I could. It looks to me like he could care less about straightening a corner. Even the double apex, how can he do that!?!!!

 

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

In watching the video, it looks to me like he does straighten out the corners, except for where he is dealing with traffic and has to take a different line to pass. He consistently comes in tight to the apexes and uses all of the track on the exits, except where it doesn't make sense because there are connected corners and he is setting up the next turn point. In fact at one point I noticed he was passing and had to hold a tighter line on the exit and as a result he couldn't get on the gas as hard as normal and the guy he was trying to pass passed him back, on the outside.

What specifically do you observe that makes you say it looks like he doesn't care about straightening the corners?

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
2 hours ago, Hotfoot said:

In watching the video, it looks to me like he does straighten out the corners, except for where he is dealing with traffic and has to take a different line to pass. He consistently comes in tight to the apexes and uses all of the track on the exits, except where it doesn't make sense because there are connected corners and he is setting up the next turn point. In fact at one point I noticed he was passing and had to hold a tighter line on the exit and as a result he couldn't get on the gas as hard as normal and the guy he was trying to pass passed him back, on the outside.

What specifically do you observe that makes you say it looks like he doesn't care about straightening the corners?

"it seems he can maneuver the bike in ways that I wish I could". I'll have to watch again to understand better. It seems to me that you give this rider a high grade.  I can see that it's possible to go much faster in sections where I was going slower, which is nearly the whole track.

One of the things that I see is that he seems to use the brakes a lot less than I. Somewhere, I'd picked up the mistaken belief that I need to compress the forks to get the bike to steer which clearly I don't after specifically working on my steering during one of my sessions.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
47 minutes ago, Jaybird180 said:

It seems to me that you give this rider a high grade. 

Not necessarily - I wasn't attempting to evaluate the rider's technique overall, I was just looking at his lines based on your post. I'd have to watch again to have any opinion on his general technique. I didn't have the sound on, so I didn't hear his throttle control, and there is very limited info available with a camera view like that. All I can say  is that his lines looked reasonable and I didn't notice anything particularly sketchy (like abrupt slides), and he seemed pretty consistent. He seemed to pass effectively which indicates that he was not getting "stuck" visually on the rider in front of him, probably he has a good wide view, which is of course a huge key to overall speed.

What sort of maneuvering did you see that you wish you could do? 

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Well, I wish that I could enter faster (we've talked about that) and I wish that I could change lines mid-corner better (really helpful for double apexes) and I wish I could steer faster.

Is that 2 wishes or 3?

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

At least two are steering, and the third could be also, since being able to carry more entry speed has a lot to do with being able to steer the bike quickly! You mentioned earlier that you had the idea that you needed to be on the brakes to compress the forks to steer the bike - did (or does) that misconception create the entry speed problem and the mid-corner adjustment problem you are trying to fix? Can you (personally) steer the bike more quickly (and carry more entry speed) if you are not also trying to brake hard enough to compress the forks? It is certainly less to worry about, easier to gauge entry speed, and easier to control the steering action, if you are not trying to brake hard at the same time.

To be clear, compressing the forks CAN tighten up the steering by compressing the forks (this steepening the steering angle) but it can also make the bike harder to steer (more effort) and I have been in at least one back-and-forth debate with Cobie about which is the greater effect.

Personally I almost never use the front brake for the sole purpose of compressing the front end - if I don't need the brakes to slow down, I don't use them. One exception that I can think of is a VERY fast chicane where I have difficulty getting the bike steered fast enough (only at my max pace), and I am driving going into the chicane. In that one case I do SOMETIMES us the front brake a little to help me get the quick direction change, because otherwise the forks are extended coming into it, because I am accelerating coming into it, and the combination of speed, momentum, and fork extension makes the direction change difficult in that tight chicane. A touch on the brakes helps to get it flicked over from one side to the other, but it is a bit tricky to do and I need a lot of free attention to get it right. :)

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
24 minutes ago, Hotfoot said:

At least two are steering, and the third could be also, since being able to carry more entry speed has a lot to do with being able to steer the bike quickly! You mentioned earlier that you had the idea that you needed to be on the brakes to compress the forks to steer the bike - did (or does) that misconception create the entry speed problem and the mid-corner adjustment problem you are trying to fix? Can you (personally) steer the bike more quickly (and carry more entry speed) if you are not also trying to brake hard enough to compress the forks? It is certainly less to worry about, easier to gauge entry speed, and easier to control the steering action, if you are not trying to brake hard at the same time.

To be clear, compressing the forks CAN tighten up the steering by compressing the forks (this steepening the steering angle) but it can also make the bike harder to steer (more effort) and I have been in at least one back-and-forth debate with Cobie about which is the greater effect.

Personally I almost never use the front brake for the sole purpose of compressing the front end - if I don't need the brakes to slow down, I don't use them. One exception that I can think of is a VERY fast chicane where I have difficulty getting the bike steered fast enough (only at my max pace), and I am driving going into the chicane. In that one case I do SOMETIMES us the front brake a little to help me get the quick direction change, because otherwise the forks are extended coming into it, because I am accelerating coming into it, and the combination of speed, momentum, and fork extension makes the direction change difficult in that tight chicane. A touch on the brakes helps to get it flicked over from one side to the other, but it is a bit tricky to do and I need a lot of free attention to get it right. :)

I pickup a few new capabilities and haven't yet had enough time with them to readjust my riding to suit. It's possible that it's fixed, but I'm eager to get back to it to be certain lest old habits come back like weeds in my garden.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

One of the things that this rider does differently is that his entry position isn't as wide as mine, which is what I meant by doesn't care about straitening the corner. He's doing it consistently in a couple corners not for passing purposes.

Sidebar question: Are the TP Xs at the school intentionally placed for learning purposes and perhaps aren't the "ideal" TP but are so placed because they work for the greater majority of students and therefore is determined the best location?

It does appear that he has a HP disadvantage as the rider he caught at about the 6:00 mark just walked (more like sprinted) away from him on the front straight.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
2 hours ago, Jaybird180 said:

Sidebar question: Are the TP Xs at the school intentionally placed for learning purposes and perhaps aren't the "ideal" TP but are so placed because they work for the greater majority of students and therefore is determined the best location?

Yes to the above. The turnpoints marked will give you a good line, but as I'm sure was mentioned in the classroom, there is no "ideal line" that is the absolute perfect line for every rider.

Riders will tend to choose their preferred lines based on their particular skillset, bike characteristics and riding preferences. For example on my little Moriwaki, which weighs only 180 lbs, I can carry far more corner speed than a heavier bike, and with very low horsepower, maintaining momentum is critical. My lines on the that are not quite the same as the ones I'd take on the BMW; for example, I might use all the track on the exit on the BMW because I am driving hard and the rapidly increasing speed widens the arc and forces me outward. That doesn't happen on the Moriwaki, it can't accelerate that fast so if the next corner was turning the same direction I might not go out so far on the exit, why cover the extra distance if I don't have to? I also, personally, tend to choose relatively late turn points (on the BMW) because I LOVE to quickturn the bike, whereas another rider that likes to trailbrake heavily might choose an earlier or more inside line to better complement their strengths.

The turn points at the school are there for learning purposes and students are encouraged to experiment with them, turning before and after, inside and outside, to see what happens. In fact, one of the targets for the TP drill is to go out and do that exact thing, turn before and after the mark, etc. Most novice riders are inclined to turn in early (due to SRs firing off) so those turnpoint marks help get the riders to actually GO to an area that might otherwise never even try.

Another aspect is visibility - riding on the road, using a turn point that is later and more to the outside gives you better visibility through the corner. On a familiar track if you have good references (like the rider in the video), that might not be a consideration but for street riding it can be very useful.

Do you remember how you determine, after you go through a corner, whether the line you chose was a good line?

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Good explanation on the above. Thank you.

The line is only as good as it allows you to apply TC Rule#1...

and since he can do that then it's a good line for this rider/bike combo.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Thanks for the video. I love watching fast guys go round the track.

 

I think the simple explanation is he is running well within his comfort level in traffic. Simply, the people he is passing at the first part of the video are not nearly as fast as he is.

Watching him on clear track, he appears to be running faster and with a wider entry line when appropriate.

(Not every corner entry dictates a wide line, not every corner exit dictates using every bit of track.)

Entry corners and Exit corners are terms I've heard Ken Hill use in his podcasts. These may be common use terms.

Printing a track out on paper and drawing out racing lines that make sense is a great way I've read to get an idea how to take a corner. Bring it to the track and make adjustments as you find you need.

 

 

I think your question boils down to how does he continue to make corrections to his cornering line after he initiates his lean.

(Not that it's ideal. You'd like your inputs to be made at corner entry and be done, right?)

But I think the short answer to your question is Countersteering. (at least for me) staying loose on the bars is most important, locking in a secure lower body position on the bike so that you can make fine bar inputs, and assisting the corner lean with appropriate peg weighting (one of the hidden keys to the puzzle for me). I think CSS teaches outer peg weighting to assist locking the leg to the tank. I like it, but I've also found inner peg weighting and sliding your butt almost till it feels you're sitting on your calf really helps hold a tight line.

  • Like 1

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Create an account or sign in to comment

You need to be a member in order to leave a comment

Create an account

Sign up for a new account in our community. It's easy!

Register a new account

Sign in

Already have an account? Sign in here.

Sign In Now

×