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JP_636

Turn-in point techniques

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Once the weather cools off more, i'm looking into doing my first track day! In the meantime, i'm researching cornering and body techniques but im confused when in comes to what you should be doing with the throttle once you hit your turn-in point.

According to the multiple sites i've visited and videos i've watched people either

1. Engine brake through the turn-in point, until they finish leaning over then they gradually/smoothly apply throttle through the apex and exit.

2. Use "Maintenance Throttle" through the turn-in point, again until your at your desired lean angle then gradually apply throttle through the apex and exit.

3. At the turn in point gradually start applying throttle through the entire corner and exit (Although i thought when you apply lean angle you shouldn't be applying throttle at the same time?)

Are these just different cornering techniques used?

Is it safe to engine brake through a corner? 

Is one more effective/practical (such as for Street vs Track?)

I'm as new as it comes to this, any feedback would be greatly appreciated, Thanks!!

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Hi JP,

Your questions are good.  There are a number of factors that come into play, and one answer won't work for all turns/situation.  The one that will give the most problems is increasing throttle and lean angle together, that's usually a big no-no.  Have you read any of Twist of the Wrist 2, or seen the video?  That will give you some great guidelines.  

Best,

Cobie

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OP, I see where you are coming from.

David Moss has this mantra I've been seeing on his facebook videos- brake- throttle- turn. And it confused me at first. Unless you think of it as maintenance throttle rather than actually accelerating. Still, even then I'm confused a little.

My impression of TOTW and reading here is that you simply don't want to get into the habit of accelerating and adding lean angle Even if at your speed and skill level you are far from the limit of the tire. As you get faster, it's simply too easy to shoot right past the warning signs of approaching the limit.

At the same time you want that throttle control where you are gradually rolling on the throttle while trading off lean angle. Ideally you want to set up your corner so you can accomplish this. Obviously, it's not always possible on the street.

At least that's my take...

 

I mean when you are really lapping around a track and feeling fast and you set up the corner right and make your pivot steering input, I can't imagine rolling on the throttle at that time as well. It seems like too much is going on with the chassis much like you don't want to be moving around in your seat at this time either.

Once you release the inside bar pressure, settle down in the seat, then I can see rolling on maintenance throttle. Then it's a gradual roll on the throttle while coming out of your lean.

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On ‎8‎/‎28‎/‎2018 at 9:38 AM, jcw said:

Still, even then I'm confused a little.

 

I can see why that would be confusing, especially if there was not a exact explanation of specifically WHEN to roll on the throttle and WHY. What, exactly, was the stated purpose of that before turn roll-on you describe in that mantra you mentioned?

"Maintenance throttle" is s term that is thrown around a lot but different people seem to have different ideas of what it is supposed to mean. I personally have heard at least three different definitions. :)

Twist of the Wrist II gives a detailed and straightforward explanation of good throttle control, might want to have another look at that if you haven't in a while.

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The reason given was that the suspension works better loaded rather than unloaded.

I suppose it is similar to TOTW2. the idea of the best weight distribution coming from slowly rolling on the throttle, but the way it was presented is confusing.

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Thanks to all that replied! I finally watched TOTW 2 and i definitely have a better understanding now. I plan on getting the book and reading it here soon too ??

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What's up JP_636.  I took the Level and Level 2 course at NJMP.  I went back and read TOTW2 again and it talks about how the suspension while exiting the turn.  I used to describe it a "squat" but the technical term is "weight transfer" according to the book.  LOL....   You want a transfer of 10-20% of weight off the front to the rear.  Once you get the bike on the line you  want "GET IT ON" meaning you want to get the throttle on so that the weight transfer happens.  Accelerate smoothly  and enjoy the sensation. My 2 cents

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On 8/23/2018 at 9:41 AM, JP_636 said:

Once the weather cools off more, i'm looking into doing my first track day! In the meantime, i'm researching cornering and body techniques but im confused when in comes to what you should be doing with the throttle once you hit your turn-in point.

According to the multiple sites i've visited and videos i've watched people either

1. Engine brake through the turn-in point, until they finish leaning over then they gradually/smoothly apply throttle through the apex and exit.

 

 

As Cobie stated, there won't be one single answer as every road/ track will have variations of turns, angle of the road, surface differences, etc. 

I was at Thunderhill West in June and learned that I was accelerating through a turn that I could have just used my momentum to get through and I was faster in doing so. Some people might call it "coasting" or engine braking. I just know that down the straight I would see Turn 1, enter Turn 1, and would not get back on the throttle until exiting Turn 2. My momentum carried me through. 

When I used the throttle at the exit of T1 and into T2, I would have too much speed and have to move around a lot to try to catch my already missed apex and try to set up for the next turn. It was too much! A lot going on and more reacting rather than having a plan. The track/ road itself does not move around or change much. It is the rider that is the unknown variable! Have a plan for each turn you take. 

Hope your first track day went well! :)

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There are several reasons why you would want to apply throttle before the apex, but the very important point before considering any of this is that adding lean angle while accelerating put a lot of stress on the tire. In this situation the tire can react unpredictably, losing and regaining grip uncontrollably and shaking the rider out of the bike.

At any rate, when giving gas in a turn we transfer the bike weight to the rear making the front easier to handle. In a chicane, peaking up the throttle in the middle of the turns helps with the fast direction changes (but definitely not while giving the first strong lean input). Also when riding on bumps ideally you want to open the throttle, for the same weight transfer reasons.

Another reason is engaging traction sooner. Racers tend to give some gas before the apex to start engaging traction and power up immediately after the apex. This is a lot more obvious in flat track or dirt riding when riding through the turns with a smaller displacement bike.

Finally in very long turns we have no choice unless we want to park the bike somewhere in the middle of the turn.

I prefer the expression "picking up the throttle" to "maintenance throttle", because it the former gives better the idea of a minimal input.

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What is the difference between a smaller displacement bike and a larger displacement bike in these kinds of situations? Which one is easier to handle?

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1 hour ago, CarltonGi said:

What is the difference between a smaller displacement bike and a larger displacement bike in these kinds of situations? Which one is easier to handle?

Can you be more specific in your question? The basic throttle rule (see Twist of the Wrist II) is the same.

If your specific question is in regards to Spaghetti's comment above about adding lean angle while accelerating - that action is not recommended, as it is a classic way to overload the rear tire and lose traction, but generally speaking a smaller displacement bike (assuming good tires and suspension) would be easier to manage because it has less available power to feed to the rear tire. It is pretty easy, on a modern 600 or 1000cc sport bike, to break the rear tire loose by adding throttle and lean at the same time. It is tougher to do on something like a 250cc or 300cc bike, but certainly not impossible, if you lean it over far enough and especially if you are abrupt with the throttle application. 

The traction control available on the S1000rr helps a great deal in avoiding applying too much throttle while leaned over, as it manages the power based on measured lean angle, however if a rider aggressively ADDS lean angle and throttle together, it is still possible to overwhelm the rear tire. I must say, though, the S1000rr is amazingly easy to ride, even for a rider new to high HP machines, the electronics in it are amazing, it has been an incredible training tool for the school.

 

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