MotoGB Posted February 7, 2007 Report Share Posted February 7, 2007 Hi all, In Twist II, Keith and Doug talk about not charging turns in order to set up for the turn and regulate turn in speed etc. and ultimately bring down lap times, keeping it smooth and controlled. Its not that I don't agree with this, I do, but in a race situation, when you are approaching a turn and going in smooth and controlled, how would this stop a competitor taking your position, by charging and out braking you to the turn? Even if he/she did stuff up their entry speed and actually "slowed" you down, they still end up in front! (providing they managed to hold their line and not run wide) How do you keep this controlled technique in a racing situation and still defend or even attack other riders? You see a high number of pro riders on TV who look to be charging turns in order to gain positions. Once again, I am NOT disputing the technique, I just want to improve my racing and follow the 'Twist way' without losing or not gaining positions. Thanks in advance. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Cobie Fair Posted February 7, 2007 Report Share Posted February 7, 2007 Hi all, In Twist II, Keith and Doug talk about not charging turns in order to set up for the turn and regulate turn in speed etc. and ultimately bring down lap times, keeping it smooth and controlled. Its not that I don't agree with this, I do, but in a race situation, when you are approaching a turn and going in smooth and controlled, how would this stop a competitor taking your position, by charging and out braking you to the turn? Even if he/she did stuff up their entry speed and actually "slowed" you down, they still end up in front! (providing they managed to hold their line and not run wide) How do you keep this controlled technique in a racing situation and still defend or even attack other riders? You see a high number of pro riders on TV who look to be charging turns in order to gain positions. Once again, I am NOT disputing the technique, I just want to improve my racing and follow the 'Twist way' without losing or not gaining positions. Thanks in advance. Alan, OK, take the competition out for a moment, and you are just going for a fast qualifying lap. What will get you the best time? Ultimately, if guys charge you see a lot of mistakes: most of them have the result of late on the throttle, and what is the result of that? Cobie 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
racer Posted February 7, 2007 Report Share Posted February 7, 2007 Exactly. The charging rider is turning a slower laptime. To respond directly: In the race, if the other rider is of equal skill and speed, follow them around until the end and repass. If they are faster than you, it is only a matter of time until they get by and get away anyway. To ride defensively not only slows you down, it robs you of the opportunity to follow the faster rider and learn something. More importantly it slows both of you down and gives the slower riders behind a chance to catch up. It is difficult sometimes in a short sprint race to keep a long view and not get drawn iinto a braking duel but at the end of the day, your better off to let them go in hot while you back off and carry more corner speed and get a better drive. If indeed you are evenly matched, the stay calm, stay smooth, save your energy and don't get worn out or mentally fatigues from the intensity and distraction of an intense braking duel. Make them look over their shoulder and worry and wonder. Save it for the last lap and pop your competitor where they can't get you back before the flag. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JeF4y Posted February 8, 2007 Report Share Posted February 8, 2007 it's a fine balance and a trade-off. The harder you charge a corner, the more likely you are to "cheat" the corner by moving in to the center before turning in (another poor technique but useful sometimes), and the more likely you are to overbrake. Both of which will KILL your drive on the way out. You also see how a racer will charge a corner, make a pass and get re-passed on the exit by the guy who was cornering differently. It's all about the drive out of the corner. The quicker you make the turn the quicker you can be on the gas. Really, it's about mastering skills... Master the quick-turn skill and two-step skill and you can go further into corners. Charging a corner, dicing for positions, you can find yourself in the middle of the track trying to make a corner. The only way you can do that is to severely increase your lean angle, over-brake, or go wide. All of which have large associated risks. Much of the time, I'll let people go by on the inside going into a corner, and come under them right after the apex. It's fun to do and quite easy. Yes, there are times when you meet in the middle and trade paint. Every now and again it'll knock you down, but it's part of the great game we call racing. Also, as you get faster, you will find less and less people who can out brake you AND still make a proper corner which would prevent you from repassing... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MotoGB Posted February 8, 2007 Author Report Share Posted February 8, 2007 Thanks for all your replies guys, I have a few track days coming up where I can practice these skills and hopefully set myself up for the race that follows. Unfortunatley in the class I am racing in at the moment there are guys on superbikes, with a lot more power and torque than me (250 GP bike) so they will get me on the drive out as well, but I am beating some of them! But it's certainly sound advice and I'll let you all know how I get on. Long live the 250's! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
racer Posted February 8, 2007 Report Share Posted February 8, 2007 Having said all of that... One of the funnest races of my life was the 125GP at the Formula USA round at Grattan in 1995. The 2-3 fastest guys slipped away and left about five of us battling over 4th-8th places. It was epic and the best battle on the track, if not the entire weekend. Cut and thrust, lap after lap, the pack was 3 and 4 wide down the front straight and, being a demon on the brakes, I ended up winning almost every lap. However, I made a terrible error going deep on the brakes coming onto the front straight for the white flag and followed the pack into turn one for the last lap just as we came upon lapped traffic. After leading the pack for the entire race I was truly pissed! What didn't make the tape were the half-dozen wicked, bump and grind, three-wide mid-corner passes on the back half of the course as I fought my way back to take 5th place at the checkers. The rub is that the race meet was broadcast on ESPN. And somewhere in my closet is a video tape with Kurt Hall announcing my name to the world lap after lap, "On the brakes again into turn one ...". So...I didn't win the race...but...I wouldn't have had it any other way. The moral of the story is: Do as I say, not as I do. But if you do do as I did, make sure the race is being broadcast worldwide! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
racer Posted February 8, 2007 Report Share Posted February 8, 2007 So Alan, If you do end up bumping down next year like you mentioned, I might recommend going with the 400 that you can wheel out, fill with fuel and ride all day before rolling back on the trailer without a second thought to anything other than riding. However, you do see how competitive the 125's are down there... Cheers Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
racer Posted February 11, 2007 Report Share Posted February 11, 2007 Then there was the 125GP at the World Superbike Round at Laguna in 1998... When I chose to wait until the exit onto the front straight to pass the last guy on my run from dead last 50th on the grid to 20th at the white flag and the dude threw it away on the racing line coming onto the front straight right in front of me and I had to stand it up and jam the brakes not to hit him. And the rest of the eight bike train I had spent the last four laps getting around passed me back to take the white flag. So...sometimes it is better to get out front and stay there!! Why was I 50th on the grid? Oh, got bumped off by two other guys in qualifying who decided to out brake me going into that same corner like it was the last lap of the race. Sometimes it really is a full moon! I never did get to see that broadcast if anyone out there has a tape. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
PGI Posted July 2, 2017 Report Share Posted July 2, 2017 On February 7, 2007 at 1:31 PM, Cobie Fair said: Alan, OK, take the competition out for a moment, and you are just going for a fast qualifying lap. What will get you the best time? Ultimately, if guys charge you see a lot of mistakes: most of them have the result of late on the throttle, and what is the result of that? Cobie It's as if the rider's mind couldn't process what just happened, and is now catching up, when finally the rider realizes speed is too low and now starts applying throttle. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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